gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) (01/01/91)
Recently, there have been some interesting discussions in alt.dreams and
alt.paranormal on the subject of what have come to be called "out of body
experiences" (OOBE). I realize that it is characteristic of Eastern re-
ligions to regard certain experiences to be relatively unimportant or
uninteresting relative to the experience of Enlightenment or Nirvana.
However, I have always found myself curious as to how these manifestations
can be explained.
I would like to pass on a recent article from this discussion that brings
in the Lotus Sutra, which has come in for so much debate lately in this
newsgroup, in hopes that perhaps we could have some discussion on whatever
relationship there might be between the ultimate goal of Enlightenment and
some of the experiences which can be had along the way. Is it universally
felt that such experiences are mere distractions, or can an understanding
of them become part of one's quest for full realization? Does anyone have
an opinion on the specific subject of "out-of-body-experiences" (or has
anyone ever experienced such a thing during meditation? -- I recall what
I thought to be a bit of wry humor in a day-long Zen sitting workshop when
attendees were counseled that at some time during their sitting practice
they might have unusual experiences, like becoming aware of past lives.
The advice given was to keep one's attention focussed on the breath, and
these things would pass.)
I would also like to encourage anyone reading this article who has access
to alt.dreams and/or alt.paranormal to take part in this discussion in
that forum as well (in fact, I'd like to recommend that you cross-post
articles between those two newsgroups, since there is an overlapping area
of interest in the subject of OOBEs).
Sweet dreams, all. :-)
Gary
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From: tronix@polari.UUCP (David Daniel)
Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Was I going to have an OBE?
Message-ID: <3034@polari.UUCP>
Date: 30 Dec 90 08:33:32 GMT
References: <4373.2779f958@cc.helsinki.fi> <4384.277cc30d@cc.helsinki.fi>
Reply-To: tronix@polari.UUCP (David Daniel)
Organization: Seattle Online Public Unix (206) 328-4944
[]> I was perfectly relaxed and the muscles on my feet started vibrating. As
[]> if they were tensed and relaxed sequentially. I was able to expand that
[]> vibration to other muscles, too (buttocks, arms, etc.). The vibration
[]> was physical - I did not only imagine. As I let the vibration flow
[]> freely, I soon came paralyzed. At that point, I seemed to loose all
[]> contact with my body - I didn't feel it at all. I didn't loose my
[]> consciousness.
I'm not sure exactly how to answer your question. If the vibrations you
experienced are anything like mine they are NOT physical in the sense
that they do NOT produce movement of the muscles or the bed, etc.
I suppose you could think or assume that they are muscular in nature since
they sensation is so pronounced, but I know that mine don't involve
musculature or any other mechanical system of my body.
As to whether or not you were about to have an OBE: That depends on you.
It's likely that most people who experience these Psychic Vibrations (PV)
do not exteriorize. The reasons are probably many, but a couple of
obvious (to me) ones to mind -
1. The last time many of us exteriorized (had an OBE) was when we lost
our last body. That's a less than pleasant experience for most and highly
traumatic for many. The act of going OB in an unexpected and uncontrolled
manner could bring back a past death experience or at least the fear
and disorientation that likely accompanied it.
2. Misconceptions: (of course these are my opinions as to what the
misconceptions are. I'm sure other will fervently disagree)
The main misconception I've seen has to do with the essential nature of what
a being is. Most people who employ some means to exteriorize do so under the
erroneous notion that the have an 'astral body' and go through all kinds of
gyrations to disengage it from the physical body. I don't know where the
notion of the 'astral body' originated, but as far back as Siddartha a more
accurate description has existed. Siddartha's discourse on the subject is in
the preamble to the Lotus Sutra (if memory serves) and is entitled Sutra of
Infinite Meaning. In it he answers a devtee's question about the nature of
the ultimate entity to which Siddartha replies with what have been called
"the 34 enigmatic negatives". I personally don't find them enigmatic at all,
but some sanskrit scholar evidently did. Siddartha answers the question by
telling the devotee what the ultimate entity ISN'T. I can recall a few lines
of it, but I can't vouch for them being in the original order:
The ultimate entity is neither long nor short, Nor square nor round. It is
neither emerging nor vanishing, safe nor unsafe, itself nor others.
[many other lines I can't recall, except for the last line]
It is neither red nor blue nor any other color.
The point I believe he was making was simple: It's absolutely NOTHING
physical, not astral, not ethereal, not plasmic, not elctromagnetic, etc,
etc.
Hubbard later defined an entity, soul, being as thetan and described it as
this universe's only true and ultimate static, but capable of various
manifestations, thoughts, postulates and considerations about itself and
the physical universe.
[]> I wait for the answers very eagerly!
I don't know if I've supplied you with any, but it's something to
consider anyway.
[] Jouni
--
David Daniel (The man with no disclaimer) tronix@polari.UUCP
"Beware the Truth. If you find a Truth it can demand that you make painful
changes." - Frank Herbert
--
Gary S. Trujillo gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gstjwl@mvutd.att.com (James W Lacey) (01/03/91)
In article <1991Jan1.001930.8508@nas.nasa.gov>, gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) writes: > > Recently, there have been some interesting discussions in alt.dreams and > alt.paranormal on the subject of what have come to be called "out of body > experiences" (OOBE). [some stuff deleted] > -- I recall what > I thought to be a bit of wry humor in a day-long Zen sitting workshop when > attendees were counseled that at some time during their sitting practice > they might have unusual experiences, like becoming aware of past lives. > The advice given was to keep one's attention focussed on the breath, and > these things would pass.) [stuff deleted] > I have heard/read similar advise, but it was made explict that such "unusual experiences" were hallucinations. Jim Lacey my opinions are my own
lefty@TWG.COM (Lefty) (01/16/91)
In article <1991Jan3.013302.28204@nas.nasa.gov> jwl@mvutd.att.com (James W Lacey) writes: > In article <1991Jan1.001930.8508@nas.nasa.gov>, gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) writes: > > I recall what I thought to be a bit of wry humor in a day-long Zen > > sitting workshop when attendees were counseled that at some time during > > their sitting practice they might have unusual experiences, like becoming > > aware of past lives. The advice given was to keep one's attention > > focussed on the breath, and these things would pass.) [stuff deleted] > > I have heard/read similar advise, but it was made explict that > such "unusual experiences" were hallucinations. This is correct. In general, any particular "experience" you encounter while sitting zazen should be treated as a distraction and ignored. The mind tends to fight approaching the state of "mushin"; visions, "past life" memories and other odd experiences can result. The correct response is to return one's attention to the breath (if sitting shikan-taza). The Japanese term for this sort of thing is "makkyo". -- Lefty (lefty@twg.com) | "And you may ask yourself, D:.O:.D:., C:.M:.C:. | 'How do I work this?'"