chee1a1@jetson.uh.edu (01/19/91)
>From: tilley@ssd.Kodak.Com (David Tilley), Eastman Kodak >Date: 5 Jan 91 01:53:19 GMT >I hate to bring up Karma again and Re-birth again, but I will. This has always >been a problem for me. There being no self, exactly who is reborn? Who has >any karma that goes between lives? If there is no Self, how can "I" be reborn? >There is no "I". Is this "I" no more than a ripple in a stream? >Dave Whether you like it or not karma and re-birth happens again and again. So I think you do not have to dislike bringing up the issue for discussion. Main misconception that leads people to believe that karma and no-soul do not go tother is the idea that Karma is a sort of reward/punishment (or retribution). It is not so. It is more a cause and effect phenomenon. On the other hand, effects of all the Karma may not become active. Some Karma may become useless (or may not give any result at all). An ordinary person does not what Karma was done in the past and what would not effect them etc. Therefore, in order to motivate people to avoid unprofitable and to cultivate profitable, effects of Karma are emphasised generally. According to buddhist teachings, Karma is basically the volition, which causes the actions (physica,verbal, and mental). The results of Karma is manifested through mental formations (or Sankhara) of the five aggregates (form - rupa, feeling- vedana, perception - sagngna , sankhara - mental formations, and consciousness - vigngnana). It is not a soul that passes from one life to another. At the moment of death of a person, the vigngnana (or consciousness) perceives according to whatever comes to mind at that last moment. This is grasped by the mind causing the rebirth consciousness of the next life and then the mentality related to the five constituents is formed. There is no one soul going from death to the next birth. It is the consciousness from one moment to another which is grasped. Whether we "ask" for it or not irrespective of our views or beliefs we do Karma and the results follow us , so is the rebirth. The concept of "I" comes to our mind because of our ignorance and grasping. Until we end this grasping and the preceding desires,ignorance etc. this concept of "I" follows the person whether it is invited or not. The results of the actions which we are being effected (personally) are done by "us" which let this grasping go unhindered, and still we are letting it flourish unhindered, so the future. It is really difficult for us with all the desires, angers etc. to think about a mental state without a grasping. "I" is actually our ignorance and grasping of things, the ripple in the stream is consciousness (arises,persists,ends and arise again etc.), which we complicate with ignorance, desires, grasping etc. Results of karma is like a mental force which facilitates things related to us to happen (note: Karma according to buddhist teachings is not strict pre-determinism. Because you can do new good/bad actions which may change course of your life. Karma is just one factor out of others). In actual buddhist practice Karma is looked and used more as a facilitator, so that one could have better conditions for improvement. It is due to ignorance, we wonder who we were in the past, and worry about future. That is why in buddhist meditation practice it is essential to live in the present attentively, not worrying, not wondering. On the other hand, letting go of this grasping and the concept of "I" is not that easy. We can argue, talk, write about the subtle points of anatta, grasping etc., but in practice attaining this higher states is difficult. It has to come through practice. That is why buddhists starts the practice with giving, truthfullness, virtues etc. (paramitha). This teaching and practice is gradual. In correct mundane buddhist practice, everything is done to reduce this intensity of graspings, with the intent of training the mind to let go. Actual letting go, the final release, comes through meditation,and gaining insight and wisdom to break the barriers within the mind. Once I was listening to a talk given by Alan Watts, where he stated that the path of Enlightened people cannot be seen after death. In pali canon also buddha states "as the cranes flying in the sky do not leave traces in the sky, the arahants leave no traces". Therefore, looking at the characteristics of fully enlightened persons, may shed light on this role of the ignorance and grasping plays in Karma and re-birth. In the case of a fully enlightened person (such as buddhas, arahants) there is no action done to collect sankharas . Because ignorance causes this collection of sankharas(ignorance not in their mind). Therefore,in other terms, after becoming fully enlightened a person does not perform Karma to reap results later. The moment of death of an enlightened person also differs from a worldly person (who has defilements in mind). Because there is no grasping in arahanths' minds, they do not let consciousness go into another rebirth. An enlightened person at the moment of death attains jhana states and finally terminates arising of their thoughts. Because of this difference, in buddhist texts, a special term 'parinirvana' is used to refer to death of an enlightened person. Bandula (note:- the last two paragraphs were written to remove any misconceptions that could arise, because it is hard to get the idea of "I" while holding "I" which blurs lot more)
kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov ( Keith Evans) (02/01/91)
In <1991Jan19.010313.12136@nas.nasa.gov> chee1a1@jetson.uh.edu writes: >>From: tilley@ssd.Kodak.Com (David Tilley), Eastman Kodak >>Date: 5 Jan 91 01:53:19 GMT >>I hate to bring up Karma again and Re-birth again, but I will. This has always >>been a problem for me. There being no self, exactly who is reborn? Who has >>any karma that goes between lives? If there is no Self, how can "I" be reborn? >>There is no "I". Is this "I" no more than a ripple in a stream? >>Dave > (or retribution). It is not so. It is more a cause and effect phenomenon. > On the other hand, effects of all the Karma may not become active. The effect from some of the causes one makes may not become manifest until some future life. > It is not a soul that passes from one life to another. At the >moment of death of a person, the vigngnana (or consciousness) perceives >according to whatever comes to mind at that last moment. This is the point where one sees their life flash before their eyes. One's next life is determined (at the moment of death) by karma created not only in this life, but also from past lives. One may not be reborn again for a long time. > Therefore,in other >terms, after becoming fully enlightened a person does not perform Karma to > reap results later. The moment of death of an enlightened person also differs > from a worldly person (who has defilements in mind). Because there is no Even Buddhas are reborn endlessly throughtout the universe. In the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni says that he has always been in the world (since he attained enlightenment, many, amny aeons ago) to lead the people towards enlightenment. -- Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. Respectfully, Keith Evans kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov