mayne@vsserv.scri.fsu.edu (William (Bill) Mayne) (02/06/91)
>From: kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov ( Keith Evans), NAS Program, NASA Ames Research C[m >Date: 1 Feb 91 01:36:29 GMT >In <1991Jan19.010313.12136@nas.nasa.gov> chee1a1@jetson.uh.edu writes: >> Therefore,in other >>terms, after becoming fully enlightened a person does not perform Karma to >> reap results later. The moment of death of an enlightened person also differs >> from a worldly person (who has defilements in mind). Because there is no >Even *** Buddhas are reborn *** endlessly throughtout the universe. In the >Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni says that he has always been in the world >(since he attained enlightenment, many, amny aeons ago) to lead the >people towards enlightenment. -- > Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. > Respectfully, > Keith Evans kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov When we use the words we have to be careful that we do not distort the meaning we are going to convey. The whole purpose of buddhist teachings are to find the release from this cycle of rebirth and death (which is sometimes called samsara). Buddha found the way, followed it and showed the others the way. Therefore, saying buddhas are reborn is really misleading. The above reference to Lotus sutra might be a mis-translation or a misinterpretation. At the first time when he heard from another buddha that the bodhisatva will definitely become a buddha he had the capability to become enlightened (which was many aeons ago). Definitely he has to attain a certain state of detachment from there onwards to find out the paramithas by himself or in other words to discover the buddha nature by himself. This is not the same as the final enlightenment which involves complete permanent detachment from the mental defilements to attain a mind free from greed,hatred and delusions. Therefore (plus due to the reasons I explained under karma and rebirth) it is misleading to state "the Buddhas who attained final enlightenment are reborn endlessly". May be you can find other terms to express this idea of enlightenement. Bandula
kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov ( Keith Evans) (02/07/91)
[Incorrect attribution to me (possibly my own fault) omitted. I am not sure who is being quoted. --- Bill Mayne, acting moderator.] >>Even *** Buddhas are reborn *** endlessly throughtout the universe. In the >>Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni says that he has always been in the world >>(since he attained enlightenment, many, amny aeons ago) to lead the >>people towards enlightenment. >words to discover the buddha nature by himself. This is not the same as >the final enlightenment which involves complete permanent detachment from >the mental defilements to attain a mind free from greed,hatred and delusions. Freedom from "mental defilements" does NOT mean not to be born again. The Buddha is as human as we are. -- Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. Respectfully, Keith Evans kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov
mayne@nu.cs.fsu.edu ( Bill Mayne) (02/07/91)
kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov ( Keith Evans) writes: >[Someone wrote:] > >>>Even *** Buddhas are reborn *** endlessly throughtout the universe. In the >>>Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni says that he has always been in the world >>>(since he attained enlightenment, many, amny aeons ago) to lead the >>>people towards enlightenment. > >>words to discover the buddha nature by himself. This is not the same as >>the final enlightenment which involves complete permanent detachment from >>the mental defilements to attain a mind free from greed,hatred and delusions. > >Freedom from "mental defilements" does NOT mean not to be born again. >The Buddha is as human as we are. Mr. Evans may be correctly stating the doctrine of his sect (Nicheren Shoshu, I believe). This would certainly not be the only instance in which his beliefs and those of his sect are at variance with those of most other schools of Buddhism, and some other devotees of the Lotus Sutra. The vast majority of Buddhists believe just the opposite on the first part, i.e. that Buddhas, having achieved freedom from mental defilements are not reborn. Mahayanists may believe that Bodhisattvas have achieved freedom from defilements but voluntarily take rebirth for the benefit of others. But most would agree (correct me if I am wrong) with Theravadins that Buddhas, at least, are not reborn. As for the second assertion, that "The Buddha is as human as we are", the orthodox position would agree that the Buddha was as human as we are. This is not to say that his wisdom and virtue were not extra-ordinary, nor that he was reborn as those of us who do not attain nirvana in this life may be. The good news in this is that we can aspire to the same attainments as he accomplished, however far away from them we may be or think we are at present. I do not mean by any of this to be taking the position of a doctinaire Theravadin, nor making much of the difference between Theravada and Mahayana. Actually, at the level of lay practice and most matters of understanding the differences between Theravadins and most Mahayanists is not that great, IMO. The big differences are between a few sects like Nicheren Shoshu and everybody else. They are entitled to their beliefs, and being in the minority by no means indicates their doctrines are wrong. I just present some of the other side lest readers get rather distorted and idiosyncratic ideas about Buddhism from statements like Mr. Evans. To illustrate the orthodox position that Buddhas are not reborn and hopefully contribute something more than personal opinion to the discussion, I close with the following from the Dhammapada, verses 153 and 154. The translation is by Ven. Narada, who also added the footnotes shown in brackets [], except the first (showing the Pali) which I have added. This is represented to be a paean of joy uttered by the Buddha at dawn on the day of his enlightenment. It is poetic and not as explicit as some other passages, or the combination of many with which few Buddhists outside Nicheren Shoshu and related sects would argue. But the meaning is clear. *** QUOTE - Dhammapada 153, 154 *** Thro' many a birth in existence [Pali "Samsara"] wandered I, Seeking, but not finding, the builder of this house. Sorrowful is repeated birth. O housebuilder [I.e., Craving (tanha).], thou art seen, Thou shalt build no house [Body.] again. All thy rafters [Passions (kilesa)] are broken. Thy ridgepole [Ignorance (avijja).] is shattered. Mind attains the Unconditioned. [Nibbana (Skt. Nirvana)] Achieved is the End of Craving. *** END QUOTE *** Bill Mayne Florida State University mayne@nu.cs.fsu.edu