simmonds@demon.siemens.com (Tom Simmonds) (06/05/91)
> sanjay@eng.umd.edu (Kumarasamy Sanjay) > Would somebody explain me the statement > If you meet the Buddha, kill him >thanx >regards >sanjay To me, one key to this is in the Vajracchedika Sutra, in which Gautama Buddha is quoted: "The Tathagata does not cling to the idea of an ego, a person, a being, and a soul...We say there is the Tathagata, but in reality there is no such thing to be known as the Tathagata. Therefore, this is truly the Tathagata." [or something very close to that - I'm quoting from memory] As I understand it, the literal translation of Tathagata, another name for Buddha, is "Suchness Gate", from "tathata" (meaning "suchness") and "gata" (meaning "gate"). There are similar passages in other sutras. It means that we should not cling to the idea of some being or thing to be known as Buddha. If you have a thought, "This or that person or thing or state is Buddha", you should discard (kill) the thought immediately. The Gate of Suchness consists of non-attachment to ideas. -- (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))tom simmonds)))))))))))))))))))) (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ))))))) "True beauty consists in purity of heart." - Mahatma Gandhi ))))))))
dogen@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (John Chq) (06/06/91)
In response to "if you meet the Buddha..." T. S. writes, > >To me, one key to this is in the Vajracchedika Sutra, in which Gautama Buddha >is quoted: "The Tathagata does not cling to the idea of an ego, a person, >a being, and a soul...We say there is the Tathagata, but in reality there >is no such thing to be known as the Tathagata. Therefore, this is truly >the Tathagata." [or something very close to that - I'm quoting from memory] >As I understand it, the literal translation of Tathagata, another name for >Buddha, is "Suchness Gate", from "tathata" (meaning "suchness") and "gata" >(meaning "gate"). There are similar passages in other sutras. > >It means that we should not cling to the idea of some being or thing to be >known as Buddha. If you have a thought, "This or that person or thing or >state is Buddha", you should discard (kill) the thought immediately. The >Gate of Suchness consists of non-attachment to ideas. > I certainly agree with your interpretation. Just a couple of points; the word tatha means thus, such, as such. The word for thusness or suchness when refering to Reality is tatha plus an extra ta (long a); Tathata. Gata means gone, or arrived. Hence, the literal translation of tathagata is 'the thus-gone', 'thus arrived', or he who has gone thus. All this refers to the person who has gone from samsara to nirvana, in the Theravada sense, or the one who has gone from a state of attachment to concepts to non-attachment, as you stated above. I was wondering who or what tradition gave that particular analysis of the word "tatha-gata". Many times when doctrines get transplanted terms take on a different shade of meaning, especially when Indian Buddhist concepts were introduced to China. But going back to the basic issue of "...kill the Buddha...", I think the zennists have always tried to send "shockwaves"to their co-religionists in an attempt to shake them from attachments to doctrine. I'm glad you are quoting from other sutras because this shows that zen also has roots, despite their claim of transmission beyond words and letters. If I may add another doctrinal connection: In chapter 22 of Nagarjuna's Mula-madhyamika-karikas, he too takes up the issue of the Tathagata. In this treatise Naga systematically deconstructs all conceptual foundations that can lead to a mistaken view of what a Buddha is (a mistaken view is any IDEA or CONCEPT about the Buddha or Reality, as opposed to insight). His conclusion is that the true state of the Tathagata is the state of the world. I.e., the Tathagata is not some "Higher Being" or "Holy Other" above and beyond this world. Any and all phenomena in their co-dependent arising and emptiness IS the Tathagata, and vice-versa. Sounds much like Dogen's assertion that pebbles and trees are the Buddha-nature. J. C. -- ******************************************************************************* -- John Cha "The present is always more interesting than the future or the past" *******************************************************************************
simmonds@demon.siemens.com (Tom Simmonds) (06/07/91)
> dogen@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (John Chq) >Subject: Re: If you meet the Buddha... >I certainly agree with your interpretation. Just a couple of points; the >word tatha means thus, such, as such. The word for thusness or suchness >when refering to Reality is tatha plus an extra ta (long a); Tathata. >Gata means gone, or arrived. Hence, the literal translation of tathagata >is 'the thus-gone', 'thus arrived', or he who has gone thus. All this >refers to the person who has gone from samsara to nirvana, in the Theravada >sense, or the one who has gone from a state of attachment to concepts to >non-attachment, as you stated above. Yes, you're right. Thanks for the correction. After I posted that, I remembered reading about the correct translation somewhere. I considered writing a correction to the net, but I didn't think it had any effect on the meaning of what I wrote, so I didn't bother to do it. Besides, I kind of like "Suchness Gate", even though it's not a correct translation of Tathagata. >I was wondering who or what tradition gave that particular analysis of the >word "tatha-gata". Many times when doctrines get transplanted terms take on >a different shade of meaning, especially when Indian Buddhist concepts were >introduced to China. It was nothing more than my own mis-translation - a very loose word-association-connection-contact-sports-football-kick- rockettes-countdown-liftoff...oops, there I go again! Thanks again for clearing it up. As usual, your post was informative and insightful. -- (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))tom simmonds)))))))))))))))))))) (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ))))))) "True beauty consists in purity of heart." - Mahatma Gandhi ))))))))