cyee@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au (Chut Ngeow YEE) (06/19/91)
Ok, the seven stages of life controversy. Sigh. Da Avabhasa purpose of
mapping out the seven stages of life is not that we have a grading system
to congratulate ourselves or to imply that the spiritual process is a slow,
slow process that we have to move through with heroic efforts. He is
simply pointing out the various phenomena that may arise due to to the
psycho-physical structure that human beings are born with. Don't ask me why
this is so. But we do develop into the normal bodily-emotional-mental being,
often in spite of ourselves. Beyond that there is the chakra system, the
etheric, astral, psychic and yogic phenomena etc that are so much talked
about and elaborated into schools of teaching and ways of life.
Just as most people are mightly attached to money, food and sex now, when we
become sensitive to these subtle range of experiences we will be equally
distracted and mightly stuck without right discriminations. Da Avabhasa's
admonition is that we have to develop our discriminative intelligence with
respect to this matter and move through these experiences swiftly if they
were to arise. Here are a couple of quotes that I found:
"Why should you begin your consideration of spiritual practice by
acknowledging that you are a vulgar, lower person, and that the way to
Truth is going to be difficult for you because you are beginning at such a
lowly place in the scale of spiritual growth? Why should you assume that
there will be seven costly stages that will take you a long, long, long,
long, long, long, long time to fulfill, and that you are probably too
dull, self-possessed, and vulgar to fulfill that great path in any case?..
If you are seeing God, then see God. This is my recommendation. What
else could I possible recommend to you? You obviously do not have a
problem. It should not be so difficult, then, to begin to practice the
Way from the point of view of the seventh stage of life. It should not
take long at all...."
"I am sorry that this destiny does not satisfy you egoically, You will not
have the satisfaction of passing through these stages by heroic effort,
Realizing the Divine in every case. Your passage through these stages will
be the most superficial kind of glance for all of you, because the knot
that is the support of the mighty transformation has already been undone
in your contemplation of me..."
The essay below is from the introduction section of "The Basket Of
Tolerance":
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Da Avabhasa has described the evolutionary development of the human
individual and the process of self-transcending spiritual, Transcendental,
and Divine Realization in terms of seven stages of life.
The first three stages of life are the stages of ordinary human growth based
on the point of view of identification with the gross body-mind. They are
the stages of ordinary physical, emotional, and mental human development,
roughly occurring in three periods of approximately seven years each, until
the age of approximately twenty-one years. They will tend to be fulfilled
(if only to a nominal, or partial, degree) in the case of every human being.
The first stage of life is a process of individuation, or of becoming
identified with the personal physical body in the waking state. In this
stage one gradually adapts functionally to physical existence and eventually
achieves a basic sense of individual autonomy, or of personal independence
from the mother and from all others.
The second stage of life is a process of socialization, or social
exploration and growth in relationships. In this stage, the individual
adapts to the "emotional-sexual", or feeling, dimension of the being and
achieves basic integration of that emotional-sexual, or feeling, dimension
with the physical body.
The third stage of life is a process of integration as a fully
differentiated, or autonomous, sexual and social human character. In this
stage, one adapts to and develops the verbal mind, the faculty of
discriminative intelligence, and the will. And one achieves basic adult
integration of body, emotion, and mind in the context of the gross, or
bodily-based, point of view in relation to existence itself.
In the Way of the Heart, Da Avabhasa Calls practitioners to transcend the
first six stages of life rather than to fulfill them. ... He addresses
each of the first six stages of life as an error or limitation. Although
the first three stages of life are the necessary foundation of all human
development, the point of view of the first three stages of life represents
an error, or limitation, in Consciousness by virtue of its identification
with the body.
Whereas the first three stages of life develop in three periods of seven
years each, the duration of the fourth, fifth, and sixth stages of life
cannot be predicted, since it depends on many factors, including the force
of the individual's impulse to growth and self-transcendence and the stages
of life taught and Realized by his or her teachers.
The fourth stage of life is the transitional stage between the gross,
bodily-based point of view of the first three stages of life and the subtle,
psychic point of view of the fifth stage of life. The fourth stage of life
is the stage of spiritual devotion, or surrender of self, in which the gross
functions of the being are submitted to the higher psychic, or subtle,
functions of the being, and, through these psychic functions, to the Divine
Being, God, Truth, or Reality.
In the fourth stage of life, the gross, or bodily-based, personality of the
first three stages of life is purified through reception of the Spiritual
Force ("Holy Spirit", or "Shakti") of the Divine Reality, which prepares
the being to outgrow the bodily-based point of view.
In "The Dawn Horse Testament" (New Standard Edition), Da Avabhasa
characterizes the error of the fourth stage of life, as that stage is
characteristically realized in the religious and spiritual traditions of the
world"
"The Fourth Stage Error Is The Tendency To Prolong The First Three Stages
of Life (and The Patterns Of Un-Happiness That Are egoically Associated
With The First Three Stages Of Life) and To Make The Fourth Stage Of Life
An End In Itself (Rather Than A Transition or A Transitional Means For
The Realization Of The Stages Beyond The Fourth). This Tendency Takes
The Form Of A Fixed Idea Of God (As An Ultimate Entity Eternally Separate
From the conditional self-entity) and A Fixed Idea of the personal self
(As Either a Mortal Or an Immortal entity that Is Eternally Separate From
and Dependent Upon God). On The Basis Of This Tendency, The Fourth Stage
Is Made Into A Never-Ending Search For God and A Never-Ending Appeal To
God For Intimacy, Relief, and self-Satisfaction."
In the fifth stage of life, existence is view from the point of view of the
higher mind, of psyche, which is the subtle dimension of the being beyond
the gross, verbal-conceptual mind, and above, or prior to, the process of
the gross body. The traditional orientation of the fifth stage of life is
toward renunciation of gross bodily existence in the phenomenal world, in
some cases through asceticism.
Traditionally, the fifth stage of life is the stage of cosmic mysticism and
the Yogas (or contemplative and practical exercises) that attune one to the
Divine Spiritual Reality through the psychic point of view of the higher
brain and nervous system. Thus, the fifth stage of life is awakened and
developed through the contemplative, Spiritual ascent of attention and of
all the energy of one's being into the subtle or psychic dimension and
process of the being. And, traditionally, the ultimate achievement of the
fifth stage of life is absorption in mystical union with the Divine, which
in the Yogic traditions is called "nirvikalpa samadhi" (formless ecstasy)
and which in the Western esoteric traditions is called "gnosis" (Divine
knowledge).
In "The Dawn Horse Testament", Da Avabhasa characterizes the error of the
fifth stage of life:
"The Fifth Stage Error (Even Associated With The Ascending Process In The
Advanced Context Of The Fourth Stage Of Life) Is The Tendency To Seek and
Cling To subtle phenomenal objects and stages (or Else To Seek or Cling
To the merely conditional Transcendence Of these In Ascended or
conditional Nirvikalpa Samadhi), As If either subtle phenomenal objects
and subtle phenomenal stages Or Else conditional Nirvikalpa Samadhi Is
The Sufficient or Ultimate or Perfect Realization of God, Truth, Reality,
or Happiness."
characterizes the error of the fourth stage of life, as that stage is
In the sixth stage of life, one's characteristic view of existence is not
based in identification with the body, or in identification with the subtle
mind or psyche. Rather it is based in identification with the independent
personal consciousness, or essential self, exclusive of the phenomena of
the body-mind and the world. In this stage, one renounces all identification
with the body or mind and lives and acts from the position and domain of
Consciousness as the Transcendental "Witness" or psyche, body and all
psycho-physical phenomena. The sixth stage of life may be culminate in
"Jnana Samadhi", or temporary or conditional Realization of the Divine Self.
>From the point of view of the Way of the Heart, as Da Avabhasa Reveals in
"The Dawn Horse testament":
"The Sixth Stage Error Is The Tendency To Hold On To The Subjective
Position of Consciousness As A Reality Inherently Separate (or
Dissociated) From Objective Light (or the Universal Spirit-Energy) and
all conditional objects (or all that Is Made Of That Apparently Objective
Light or Spirit-Energy). It is The Tendency To Hold On To The Inherent
Love-Bliss Of Transcendental Consciousness By Strategically Excluding All
Awareness Of (or The Tendency To Grant or Allow attention To) conditional
objects and stages.
The Sixth Stage Error or Tendency May Eventually Take The Form Of Jnana
Samadhi, Which Is A Temporary State Of Transcendental Awakeness (Based On
Contemplative Identification With Consciousness Itself) That Is Also
Inherently Associated With An Accompanying Effort, Either Spontaneous Or
Willful, That Excludes all conditional or phenomenal objects and stages."
The seventh stage of life is the Realization of the Divine Self beyond the
points of view of the gross body, the subtle mind or psyche, and the
independent personal consciousness. It is the Realization of Consciousness
Itself and Its inherent Spiritual Light, Power, Love, and Happiness as the
One Reality, prior to and beyond the body, the mind, and individual, or
egoic, consciousness. It is the stage of Freedom from every kind of
dissociative effort relative to body, mind, world, and Spirit, or Objective
Light. It is the stage of most Perfect Freedom, inherently Transcending
every kind of conditional, limited, or individual "point of view".
Thus, in the seventh stage of life, the Realizer enjoys continuous,
permanent, Perfect identification with Divine Being Itself, and he or she
experiences no "radical" or fundamental difference between Divine
Consciousness and body, psyche, self, or any and all psycho-physical stages
and conditions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will follow this with three or four compilations of writings/talks Da
Avabhasa gave with respect to the study of the Great Tradition. Most of
these are fairly recent unpublished instructions given to his devotees.
This should give you a glimpse of how he work with his devotees.
Yee.radams@cerritos.edu (06/21/91)
Yee (cyee@bruce.cs.monas) writes: >process of the being. And, traditionally, the ultimate achievement of the >fifth stage of life is absorption in mystical union with the Divine, which >in the Yogic traditions is called "nirvikalpa samadhi" (formless ecstasy) >and which in the Western esoteric traditions is called "gnosis" (Divine >knowledge). There is the mistaken notion here that nirvikalpa samadhi belongs to the fifth stage of life which I presume we are to think is of lesser value than the sixth or seventh. Nirvikalpa samadhi is always referred to as being the highest state of conciousness and not just by those who are termed "Yogis". Ramana Maharshi said that nirvikalpa samadhi, which he termed "Sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi" (to distinguish it from "Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi" in which the body and senses have to be stilled and is not permanent since you awaken from it after physical activity resumes) is the state of the Self-realized Sage in which the mind has been resolved into the Self and has been lost. >Thus, in the seventh stage of life, the Realizer enjoys continuous, >permanent, Perfect identification with Divine Being Itself, and he or she >experiences no "radical" or fundamental difference between Divine >Consciousness and body, psyche, self, or any and all psycho-physical stages >and conditions. This is what nirvikalpa samadhi is - a permanent state of divine union. The practice of yoga will not confine you to some inferior stage of life or spiritual growth. I see in this seven-level idea of Da a ranking on the teachings of Yoga which reveals is lack of knowledge IMHO. Forget about the "stages of life", the Self is the only Reality. Roger Adams radams@cerritos.edu To those in whom love dwells, Cerritos College the whole world is one family. 11110 Alondra Blvd A Hindu Proverb Norwalk, California 90650 USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cyee@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au (Chut Ngeow YEE) (06/21/91)
>Roger Adams (radams@cerritos.edu) writes >Yee (cyee@bruce.cs.monas) writes: >>process of the being. And, traditionally, the ultimate achievement of the >>fifth stage of life is absorption in mystical union with the Divine, which >>in the Yogic traditions is called "nirvikalpa samadhi" (formless ecstasy) >>and which in the Western esoteric traditions is called "gnosis" (Divine >>knowledge). >There is the mistaken notion here that nirvikalpa samadhi belongs to the >fifth stage of life which I presume we are to think is of lesser value >than the sixth or seventh. Nirvikalpa samadhi is always referred to as >being the highest state of consciousness and not just by those who are >termed "Yogis". Ramana Maharshi said that nirvikalpa samadhi, >which he termed "Sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi" (to distinguish it from "Kevala >Nirvikalpa Samadhi" in which the body and senses have to be stilled and is >not permanent since you awaken from it after physical activity resumes) is >the state of the Self-realized Sage in which the mind has been resolved >into the Self and has been lost. Thanks for the above clarification. The confusion is only in language. The fifth stage realization that Da Avabhasa referred to IS Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi, which he also called Conditional Nirvikalpa Samadhi (conditioned upon the state of body-mind) or simply Nirvikalpa Samadhi. The seventh stage Realization that he referred to is Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi, which he also called Unconditional Nirvikalpa Samadhi, or simply Sahaja Samadhi. Also, the body and mind is not lost in any stage of realization. In the seventh stage realization the body-mind and the world are simply Re-cognized as what they are, a non-binding, spontaneous arising in the Divine Self. In this stage of Realization the opposite motives identification with and dissociation from the conditional world are utterly transcended. Da Avabhasa also referred to the seventh stage Realization as 'Open-eyed'. >>Thus, in the seventh stage of life, the Realizer enjoys continuous, >>permanent, Perfect identification with Divine Being Itself, and he or she >>experiences no "radical" or fundamental difference between Divine >>Consciousness and body, psyche, self, or any and all psycho-physical stages >>and conditions. > >This is what nirvikalpa samadhi is - a permanent state of divine union. I agree. Except that Da Avabhasa called it Sahaja Samadhi, or Unconditional Nirvikalpa Samadhi. He use Nirvikalpa Samadhi to mean exclusively Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi, or Conditional Nirvikalpa Samadhi. >The practice of yoga will not confine you to some inferior stage of life >or spiritual growth. I see in this seven-level idea of Da a ranking on >the teachings of Yoga which reveals is lack of knowledge IMHO. It depends on what you mean by yoga. The normal yogic techniques, including the various forms of aceticism, are practices that are done on the body and/or the mind. Since the starting point is the body-mind, the realization obtained must necessarily be conditioned upon the body-mind. Da Avabhasa elaborations of the seventh stages of life is never meant to be used as a grading system. His purpose is to point out that all these realizations are within the possibility of the exoteric and esoteric structures that we are born with. The rising of mystical experiences etc are not more significant than the rising of thoughts or emotions, and they are equally deluding. The purpose of "The Basket Of Tolerance" is to educate and inform us of these matters so that we will not be bound by them if they were to arise. >Forget about the "stages of life", the Self is the only Reality. Have you tried? I suggest that you are not more capable of forgetting about money, food and sex than forgetting about anything else. It is one thing to affirm "the Self is the only Reality", you can turn it in your mind till the end of time and it will never become true Realization. The spiritual process is something else totally. It is an ordeal that will break your heart, your mind and your ego. It is not something that an ego can do by itself. Yee.
skumar@smdvx1.intel.com (Sitanshu Kumar) (06/22/91)
In article <1991Jun21.063840.2827@nas.nasa.gov> cyee@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au (Chut Ngeow YEE) writes: >>Roger Adams (radams@cerritos.edu) writes > >>Yee (cyee@bruce.cs.monas) writes: >>>process of the being. And, traditionally, the ultimate achievement of the >>>fifth stage of life is absorption in mystical union with the Divine, which >>>in the Yogic traditions is called "nirvikalpa samadhi" (formless ecstasy) >>>and which in the Western esoteric traditions is called "gnosis" (Divine >>>knowledge). > >>There is the mistaken notion here that nirvikalpa samadhi belongs to the >>fifth stage of life which I presume we are to think is of lesser value >>than the sixth or seventh. Nirvikalpa samadhi is always referred to as >>being the highest state of consciousness and not just by those who are >>termed "Yogis". Ramana Maharshi said that nirvikalpa samadhi, >>which he termed "Sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi" (to distinguish it from "Kevala >>Nirvikalpa Samadhi" in which the body and senses have to be stilled and is >>not permanent since you awaken from it after physical activity resumes) is >>the state of the Self-realized Sage in which the mind has been resolved >>into the Self and has been lost. > >Thanks for the above clarification. > >The confusion is only in language. The fifth stage realization that Da >Avabhasa referred to IS Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi, which he also called >Conditional Nirvikalpa Samadhi (conditioned upon the state of body-mind) or >simply Nirvikalpa Samadhi. The seventh stage Realization that he referred to >is Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi, which he also called Unconditional Nirvikalpa >Samadhi, or simply Sahaja Samadhi. > >Also, the body and mind is not lost in any stage of realization. In the >seventh stage realization the body-mind and the world are simply Re-cognized >as what they are, a non-binding, spontaneous arising in the Divine Self. In >this stage of Realization the opposite motives identification with and >dissociation from the conditional world are utterly transcended. Da >Avabhasa also referred to the seventh stage Realization as 'Open-eyed'. > >>>Thus, in the seventh stage of life, the Realizer enjoys continuous, >>>permanent, Perfect identification with Divine Being Itself, and he or she >>>experiences no "radical" or fundamental difference between Divine >>>Consciousness and body, psyche, self, or any and all psycho-physical stages >>>and conditions. >> >>This is what nirvikalpa samadhi is - a permanent state of divine union. > >I agree. Except that Da Avabhasa called it Sahaja Samadhi, or Unconditional >Nirvikalpa Samadhi. He use Nirvikalpa Samadhi to mean exclusively Kevala >Nirvikalpa Samadhi, or Conditional Nirvikalpa Samadhi. > >>The practice of yoga will not confine you to some inferior stage of life >>or spiritual growth. I see in this seven-level idea of Da a ranking on >>the teachings of Yoga which reveals is lack of knowledge IMHO. > >It depends on what you mean by yoga. The normal yogic techniques, including >the various forms of aceticism, are practices that are done on the body >and/or the mind. Since the starting point is the body-mind, the realization >obtained must necessarily be conditioned upon the body-mind. > >Da Avabhasa elaborations of the seventh stages of life is never meant to be >used as a grading system. His purpose is to point out that all these >realizations are within the possibility of the exoteric and esoteric >structures that we are born with. The rising of mystical experiences etc are >not more significant than the rising of thoughts or emotions, and they are >equally deluding. The purpose of "The Basket Of Tolerance" is to educate and >inform us of these matters so that we will not be bound by them if they were >to arise. > >>Forget about the "stages of life", the Self is the only Reality. > >Have you tried? I suggest that you are not more capable of forgetting about >money, food and sex than forgetting about anything else. It is one thing to >affirm "the Self is the only Reality", you can turn it in your mind till the >end of time and it will never become true Realization. The spiritual process >is something else totally. It is an ordeal that will break your heart, your >mind and your ego. It is not something that an ego can do by itself. Mr. Da is so completely dualistic to be totally blind. All spiritual processes are part of the ego, and can only lead to continuation of such. especially if it is an ordeal. You can break your heart, but that which is broken will be reconstructed. Insight is differnt, but Mr. Da does not seem to have any inkling about it.(at least not in these postings) S. Kumar > >Yee.
cak0l@larch.cs.Virginia.EDU (cak0l) (06/22/91)
In article <1991Jun21.220008.29472@nas.nasa.gov> skumar@smdvx1.intel.com (Sitanshu Kumar) writes (one '>' section at end): >> >>Have you tried? I suggest that you are not more capable of forgetting about >>money, food and sex than forgetting about anything else. It is one thing to >>affirm "the Self is the only Reality", you can turn it in your mind till the >>end of time and it will never become true Realization. The spiritual process >>is something else totally. It is an ordeal that will break your heart, your >>mind and your ego. It is not something that an ego can do by itself. > >Mr. Da is so completely dualistic to be totally blind. All spiritual >processes are part of the ego, and can only lead to continuation of such. >especially if it is an ordeal. You can break your heart, but that which >is broken will be reconstructed. Insight is differnt, but Mr. Da does >not seem to have any inkling about it.(at least not in these postings) > >S. Kumar hmmm... let us all take our insight where we find it, yes? all discourse is based in the nature of dualities, because words represent objects whose existence is not separate from the knower perceiving them, from the non-dual point of view. therefore, all talk is necessarily imprecise. one cannot necessarily judge the 'level of insight' of another from his words, and almost certainly has the capability to misunderstand another's words if one does not possess at least the insight of the speaker. personally, i welcome the information that da free john has presented in these articles (that yee has posted), and find them not only to be insightful but to have the characteristics of allowing me to step outside of my mundane mental states for a while. surely one who can do this to me is insightful. Christopher Koeritz (cak0l@Virginia.EDU) -------------- hmmm.... ---------- hmmm.... --------------- To conquer oneself is a greater task than conquering others. -- Shakyamuni Buddha
skumar@smdvx1.intel.com (06/25/91)
In article <1991Jun22.112746.10193@nas.nasa.gov> cak0l@larch.cs.Virginia.EDU (cak0l) writes: >In article <1991Jun21.220008.29472@nas.nasa.gov> skumar@smdvx1.intel.com (Sitanshu Kumar) writes (one '>' section at end): >>> >>>Have you tried? I suggest that you are not more capable of forgetting about >>>money, food and sex than forgetting about anything else. It is one thing to >>>affirm "the Self is the only Reality", you can turn it in your mind till the >>>end of time and it will never become true Realization. The spiritual process >>>is something else totally. It is an ordeal that will break your heart, your >>>mind and your ego. It is not something that an ego can do by itself. >> >>Mr. Da is so completely dualistic to be totally blind. All spiritual >>processes are part of the ego, and can only lead to continuation of such. >>especially if it is an ordeal. You can break your heart, but that which >>is broken will be reconstructed. Insight is differnt, but Mr. Da does >>not seem to have any inkling about it.(at least not in these postings) >> >>S. Kumar > >hmmm... let us all take our insight where we find it, yes? >all discourse is based in the nature of dualities, because words >represent objects whose existence is not separate from the knower >perceiving them, from the non-dual point of view. >therefore, all talk is necessarily imprecise. >one cannot necessarily judge the 'level of insight' of another from >his words, and almost certainly has the capability to misunderstand >another's words if one does not possess at least the insight of the >speaker. Are you saying that I misunderstood Mr. John?? is that the case?, I am just saying that he is plainly deluded, just a glib talker. If you want to discuss this post anything by Mr. John and I'll analyse it. This s no great deed. Mr. John lacks humility completely, so is the case with bookish scholars. All the wise ones have said I can not give it to you, and this guy is blowing his trumpet that he is the greatest and also can make any body like him , what a charlatan?? insight is insight, it does not belong to anybody. If it does it is not insight. >personally, i welcome the information that da free john has presented >in these articles (that yee has posted), and find them not only to be >insightful but to have the characteristics of allowing me to step outside >of my mundane mental states for a while. surely one who can do this >to me is insightful. That'a all right, one can learn from a tape recorder also. One does not need to prostate before it. s. Kumar >Christopher Koeritz (cak0l@Virginia.EDU) >-------------- hmmm.... ---------- hmmm.... --------------- > To conquer oneself is a greater task than conquering others. > -- Shakyamuni Buddha
radams@cerritos.edu (06/25/91)
skumar@smdvx1.intel.com (s. Kumar) writes: >Are you saying that I misunderstood Mr. John?? is that the case?, I am >just saying that he is plainly deluded, just a glib talker. If you >want to discuss this post anything by Mr. John and I'll analyse it. >This s no great deed. Mr. John lacks humility completely, so is >the case with bookish scholars. All the wise ones have said I can not >give it to you, and this guy is blowing his trumpet that he is the >greatest and also can make any body like him , what a charlatan?? >insight is insight, it does not belong to anybody. If it does it is >not insight. I agree totally with the above. Now, how can we tell the difference between a true guru and a dime-store guru? Let me try to respond to this question. A true guru does not blow his/her own horn and claim to be able to enlighten you. A guru can help, but we are already the Self so nobody can make you as such since you are already the Self.. What the guru _can_ do is help you get rid of the notion that you are somehow separate or separated from God (Self) and need to find God somewhere out in heaven. The Guru does not need to blow his/her own horn or brag since he/she is a projection of your very own Self and is instantly known by you as being such when you are ready for this kind of help. A true guru does not advertise on the back of breakfast cereal boxes (although I'm not suggesting that Da has done so - but then I don't eat cereals that often ;-) nor does a true guru say he is a great holy BEING or Messenger or a living proof of something or other. An illumined master has no one to brag to since duality is non-existent in him/her. Roger Adams radams@cerritos.edu To those in whom love dwells, Cerritos College the whole world is one family. 11110 Alondra Blvd A Hindu Proverb Norwalk, California 90650 USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
skumar@smdvx1.intel.com (Sitanshu Kumar) (06/26/91)
In article <1991Jun25.164146.11472@nas.nasa.gov> radams@cerritos.edu writes: >skumar@smdvx1.intel.com (s. Kumar) writes: > >>Are you saying that I misunderstood Mr. John?? is that the case?, I am >>just saying that he is plainly deluded, just a glib talker. If you >>want to discuss this post anything by Mr. John and I'll analyse it. >>This s no great deed. Mr. John lacks humility completely, so is >>the case with bookish scholars. All the wise ones have said I can not >>give it to you, and this guy is blowing his trumpet that he is the >>greatest and also can make any body like him , what a charlatan?? >>insight is insight, it does not belong to anybody. If it does it is >>not insight. > >I agree totally with the above. Now, how can we tell the difference >between a true guru and a dime-store guru? Let me try to respond to this >question. A true guru does not blow his/her own horn and claim to be >able to enlighten you. A guru can help, but we are already the Self so >nobody can make you as such since you are already the Self.. What the >guru _can_ do is help you get rid of the notion that you are somehow >separate or separated from God (Self) and need to find God somewhere out >in heaven. The Guru does not need to blow his/her own horn or brag >since he/she is a projection of your very own Self and is instantly >known by you as being such when you are ready for this kind of help. >A true guru does not advertise on the back of breakfast cereal boxes >(although I'm not suggesting that Da has done so - but then I don't >eat cereals that often ;-) nor does a true guru say he is a great holy >BEING or Messenger or a living proof of something or other. An illumined >master has no one to brag to since duality is non-existent in him/her. I did not want to go into the question of self, but it keeps comming up on the net, so here is the following. >From very ancient times, it has been said in India( from the times of Lord Rama or before, approx 6000-7000 years) that when the human mind is free of four evils ( greed, lust, anger , attachement) then there is a state of complete bliss.(sat+chit+ananada). Beyond that state of complete bliss there is another, which is "HOLY' called the self. before the state of bliss, there is a state called "shunaya" from which the universe is derived and in which it exists( this includes the whole of cosmos, any thing that is perceived by the senses or can be thought). But to talk of these states while the mind is still caught in the four evils is meaningless exercise, at best intellectual entertainment with its deeply deluding effects. The effect of the four evils is that they keep the mind in perpetual motion so that none of the states ( shunya, blissfullness or self ) can take root. Only when the mind is perfectly still that any one can take root. These are not states to be talked about lightly, only one in a billion is likely to go anywhere close.( this not my conclusion, it is from the Gita if you want to know) For example a person in the state of shunya can see the creation of the entire cosmos,(including the innumerable exploding stars) and so on. Even before one reaches Shunya one has to see one own innumerable lifes and so on. You see it is all very-very complicated and utterly beyond description. On the net I see people claiming that my guru is enlightened, that is very-very juvenile. Those who are relly enlightened say so only once or twice in thier "lifetime" ( I can give examples if you want). Ya there are some people who have some understanding, but to cliam they are enlightened is ??? You know there are text that do describe how a "purusha" talks, walks, sleeps, etc. etc. ( this is quite common knowledge in India) . But all this is not so important. What is important is how the mind is freed from from the four evils. S. Kumar A A A A A stars and so on) and so on....... D Lord Rama, or before 6000-7000 years) > > > > > Roger Adams > > radams@cerritos.edu To those in whom love dwells, > Cerritos College the whole world is one family. > 11110 Alondra Blvd A Hindu Proverb > Norwalk, California 90650 > USA >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------