brownc@utah-cs.UUCP (Eric C. Brown) (12/08/84)
Subject: Where have all the hackers gone? Newsgroups: net.college, net.cse The following is a message that I have forwarded for a friend of mine: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because of the popularity of computer science as a field of study as of late, many computer science departments have been forced to severely limit enrollment. Generally they do this by raising entrance requirements and by requiring new freshmen to take "weed out" courses designed to make computer science as unpleasant as possible. This ensures that only the fittest students will survive, the rest being exiled to other majors or other schools. There is only one disturbing fact: The fittest students aren't neccessarily the best programmers. Computer science departments around the country are systematically screening out the hackers. The department I belong has very few undergraduate hacker types. They are being replaced by normal looking, normal acting people who only want to make money. They do their assignments on time, and seldom write anything that they aren't either getting credit for, or being paid for. It's sickening. Where have the hackers gone? They must have gone somewhere. Does anyone know of a computer science department somewhere that has decent facilities but still allows undergraduates the oppertunity to work on their own prodjects. Is there anyplace out there that gives undergraduates access to uucp. I know that that is a lot to ask of a department, but the must be someplace, deep in the backwaters of computer sciencedom, laid back enough to give undergraduates the opportunity to really learn how to program. Steven (Harley) Davidson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Send Replies, Flames, and so forth to: ..!decvax!harpo!utah-cs!brownc and I will forward them. Eric C. Brown (the grumpy)
mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (12/09/84)
I have two comments:
(1) When I graduated with my BS, which was back in the "Good Old Days"
of lax standards, the general education of Computer Science majors was
even worse than that of engineers, and not a whole lot better than
education majors. The general level of mathematical sophistication
was about that of a high-school junior. English? What's that?
Tightening up of standards can only help to improve these problems.
And to those of you who advocate college as vocational training, I say,
there's a place for you at the Computer Learning Center.
(2) My experience is that hacking as a practice is a liability on large
projects requiring more than one person. I have no problems with
cleverness, or with extreme brilliance; people who won't submit to any
kind of supervision and who refuse to coordinate with others almost
always build time bombs into the system which go off as soon the author
is not around to patch them. One company I know of has found that the
best solution for this supposedly essential people is to either force
them to conform or to fire them.
Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoeparnass@ihu1h.UUCP (Bob Parnass, AJ9S) (12/10/84)
> Because of the popularity of computer science as a field of study as of late, > many computer science departments have been forced to severely limit > enrollment. Generally they do this by raising entrance requirements > and by requiring new freshmen to take "weed out" courses designed to make > computer science as unpleasant as possible. This ensures that only the > fittest students will survive, the rest being exiled to other majors or > other schools. There is only one disturbing fact: The fittest students > aren't neccessarily the best programmers........ Hackers aren't necessarily the best computer scientists. -- =============================================================================== Bob Parnass, Bell Telephone Laboratories - ihnp4!ihu1h!parnass - (312)979-5414
rcb@rti-sel.UUCP (Randy Buckland) (12/11/84)
> > Hackers aren't necessarily the best computer scientists. > However, they tend to know more about the system than anyone else does. Randy Buckland Research Triangle Institute ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb
mark@tove.UUCP (Mark Weiser) (12/12/84)
With regard to Eric Brown's lament, and query regarding backwater
Universities which still allow undergraduates to hack rather
than homogenizing them all with "weed-out" courses:
Here at Maryland I have observed two kinds of hackers:
The first kind is the A student who also loves computers. This
is by far the more common kind of hacker, and this person
is not weeded out at all. (Yes, we have those weed-out courses here.
They are necessary). We try to identify the A student hacker early
on and get them into our research lab where they can play usefully.
The second kind of hacker differs from the first only in lack of
discipline, not in smarts, but the effect is that they barely
make it through their courses, if it all. They do get weeded out
often, but we also try to get these people into our lab if they are
super enough. But these people SHOULD be weeded out: self discipline
is a necessary skill in all of life.
--
Spoken: Mark Weiser ARPA: mark@maryland Phone: (301) 454-7817
CSNet: mark@umcp-cs UUCP: {seismo,allegra}!umcp-cs!mark
USPS: Computer Science Dept., University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742garys@bunker.UUCP (Gary M. Samuelson) (12/12/84)
> Subject: Where have all the hackers gone? > Newsgroups: net.college, net.cse > > The following is a message that I have forwarded for a friend of mine: > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The department I belong has very few undergraduate hacker > types. They are being replaced by normal looking, normal acting people who > only want to make money. They do their assignments on time, and seldom write > anything that they aren't either getting credit for, or being paid for. It's > sickening. When (if?) you get out of school, you will find that doing assignments on time is a definite plus in the professional world. If you are good at it, you will only do what you get paid for, because you will not have time to do other things. He who pays the fiddler calls the tune; he who pays the programmer specifies what programs will be written. "Only" want to make money? I doubt that; I, for one, like making money, but I also enjoy learning how to do what I do well. And if my appearance or behavior makes you ill, so sorry, but tough. > Where have the hackers gone? They must have gone somewhere. Perhaps they turned into "normal looking, normal acting" people when they decided to make a living... > Does anyone know of a computer science department somewhere that > has decent facilities but still allows undergraduates the oppertunity > to work on their own prodjects. Is there anyplace out there that > gives undergraduates access to uucp. I know that that is a lot to ask > of a department, but the must be someplace, deep in the backwaters of > computer sciencedom, laid back enough to give undergraduates the > opportunity to really learn how to program. ...instead of looking for a free ride, as you seem to be. The way the world typically works is that you show that you are responsible, by completing projects assigned by others (in your case, as an undergraduate), and then you create your own projects, with the approval of those with the authority and/or the resources (in your case, if you get that far, your graduate advisor). "To really learn how to program" requires discipline, the ability to work with others, and the ability to work according to others' specifications. > Steven (Harley) Davidson > Gary Samuelson
jeff@gatech.UUCP (Jeff Lee) (12/13/84)
I don't know how widespread the problem is but at Georgia Tech
(my alma mater ... sob... sniff...) the department is so strangled for
funds that unless they get a job on "the inside", they can't get any
computer time. I happened to get jobs in both the CS department and
the department which supplies resources to the campus just 1 quarter
before the big crackdown came. I came through it but I saw the late-
night hackers become a dying breed. The only ones that still survive
are the ones that still work here. The student hacker type around here
is now pretty much non-existent. I feel that it is too bad, since I
learned a lot from the others I used to "hack" with. Oh well,....
Jeff Lee
CSNet: Jeff @ GATech ARPA: Jeff.GATech @ CSNet-Relay
uucp: ...!{akgua,allegra,rlgvax,sb1,unmvax,ulysses,ut-sally}!gatech!jeff
--
Jeff Lee
CSNet: Jeff @ GATech ARPA: Jeff.GATech @ CSNet-Relay
uucp: ...!{akgua,allegra,rlgvax,sb1,unmvax,ulysses,ut-sally}!gatech!jeffbraun@drivax.UUCP (Karl Braun) (12/13/84)
> > > > Hackers aren't necessarily the best computer scientists. > > > > However, they tend to know more about the system than > anyone else does. > > Randy Buckland > Research Triangle Institute > ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb Which doesn't necessarily make them desireable or the best engineers. What good is a good hacker that interferes with getting the *product* out the door by refusing to cooperate? (note difference between *product* and *program*) -- kral ihnp4!-------- \ mot! ---------- \ softig! > drivax!braun ucscc!--------- / amdahl!------- /
lmm@teddy.UUCP (Linda M. McInnis) (12/13/84)
Are you implying that passing courses is synonymous with tremendous self-discipline?? Or is it merely figuring out what to kiss and when? Quite frankly, most of the programming courses I've taken have given minimal instruction and then essentially tell you to go play. I've taken courses at five different universities on two coasts and haven't found consistent, well-coordinated courses at any of the institutions. Let's face it, hacking is a viable means of CS training. -- Linda M. McInnis USENET: genrad!teddy!lmm "I used to be disgusted, now I'm just amused."
sher@rochester.UUCP (David Sher) (12/14/84)
> > Subject: Where have all the hackers gone? > > Newsgroups: net.college, net.cse > > > > The following is a message that I have forwarded for a friend of mine: > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The department I belong has very few undergraduate hacker > > types. They are being replaced by normal looking, normal acting people who > > only want to make money. They do their assignments on time, and seldom write > > anything that they aren't either getting credit for, or being paid for. It's > > sickening. > > When (if?) you get out of school, you will find that doing assignments on > time is a definite plus in the professional world. If you are good at it, > you will only do what you get paid for, because you will not have time to > do other things. He who pays the fiddler calls the tune; he who pays the > programmer specifies what programs will be written. "Only" want to make > money? I doubt that; I, for one, like making money, but I also enjoy > learning how to do what I do well. ... > > > Steven (Harley) Davidson > > > Gary Samuelson There seems to be a problem of conflicting definitions here. There used to be a group of undergraduates at Yale and elsewhere who wrote code because they enjoyed it. They were found in the computer room at all hours of the night simply because they were doing what they enjoyed and could do so when they wanted to. They refered to themselves as hackers. Some of them were not well disciplined and they paid the price in general, others like myself were sufficiently well disciplined to get degrees with honors and go on to become graduate students or professionals. Mr Samuelson seems to think writing code because you enjoy it somehow destroys your discipline that it is incompatible with coding well. (Actually I apologize for putting words in your mouth, a lot of messages with this gist have been coming through). Sorry I lost control there, the other definition is that hackers are people who destroy computer systems and waste time simply to be obnoxious. This was publicized by the news systems and has corrupted the word from its once fairly innocent meaning. I think Mr. Davidson is looking for the people who write code and do computer science because they enjoy it. I have written to him where he might find them. They are gone because the environments available at most universities could not be enjoyed by anyone but a confirmed masochist which is why you find so many confirmed masochists as cs majors now a days (they used to be premeds). Oh well enough flames. -David Sher (former hacker)
tli@uscvax.UUCP (Tony Li) (12/14/84)
> > The department I belong has very few undergraduate hacker > > types. They are being replaced by normal looking, normal acting people who > > only want to make money. They do their assignments on time, and seldom > > write > > anything that they aren't either getting credit for, or being paid for. > > It's sickening. > What's even more sickening is that nine out of ten of them do a *LOUSY* job. I think that this is a result of Csci being advertised as a big-money field. Kids get out of high-school, say they want to make the big $$$$, and ask the advisor what pays well. They end up in CS. Then they find out that it isn't easy. Sigh. > When (if?) you get out of school, you will find that doing assignments on > time is a definite plus in the professional world. If you are good at it, > you will only do what you get paid for, because you will not have time to > do other things. He who pays the fiddler calls the tune; he who pays the > programmer specifies what programs will be written. "Only" want to make > money? I doubt that; I, for one, like making money, but I also enjoy > learning how to do what I do well. > ^ | | Hmmm... Sounds to me like you're one of the hackers. > > Where have the hackers gone? They must have gone somewhere. > > > Does anyone know of a computer science department somewhere that > > has decent facilities but still allows undergraduates the oppertunity > > to work on their own prodjects. Is there anyplace out there that > > gives undergraduates access to uucp. I know that that is a lot to ask > > of a department, but the must be someplace, deep in the backwaters of > > computer sciencedom, laid back enough to give undergraduates the > > opportunity to really learn how to program. > > Steven (Harley) Davidson > > > Gary Samuelson Harvey Mudd College (yes, I'm biased) does allow undergrads unlimited access to their computers (almost). Uucp and source access seems to be a problem currently, but this seems to be a momentary problem. Unfortunately, Mudd, as of yet, does not have a CS dept. I'm not sure that they want one, or what. In fact, in the case of Mudd, I'm not sure that one would be a good idea. Cheers, Tony ;-) -- Tony Li ;-) Usc Computer Science Uucp: {sdcrdcf,randvax}!uscvax!tli Csnet: tli@usc-cse.csnet Arpa: tli@usc-ecl
rcd@opus.UUCP (Dick Dunn) (12/14/84)
> > Because of the popularity of computer science as a field of study as of late, > > many computer science departments have been forced to severely limit > > enrollment... > > ...There is only one disturbing fact: The fittest students > > aren't neccessarily the best programmers........ > > Hackers aren't necessarily the best computer scientists. The mismatch is even worse. Computer Science departments are often expected to teach programming--a skill very much needed by (at least) students in engineering and the physical sciences. However, the reverse of Parnass' statement is also true: Computer Scientists aren't necessarily the best programmers. And there are other skills still; neither run-of-the-mill programmers nor computer scientists are particularly likely to be any good at conceiving or constructing real software systems. -- Dick Dunn {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!rcd (303)444-5710 x3086 ...Are you making this up as you go along?
jona@clyde.UUCP (Jon Allingham) (12/14/84)
> Are you implying that passing courses is synonymous with > tremendous self-discipline?? Or is it merely figuring > out what to kiss and when? Quite frankly, most of the > programming courses I've taken have given minimal instruction > and then essentially tell you to go play. I've taken courses > at five different universities on two coasts and haven't > found consistent, well-coordinated courses at any of the > institutions. > > Let's face it, hacking is a viable means of CS training. Almost every University/College/Poodunk Com College is jumping on the Comp Sci bandwagen so I'm not surprised you didn't get anywhere. On the other hand, you seem to be mistaking Programming & Programming classes for Computer Science. Hacking may possibly be a reasonable way of learning to program - I don't feel it is a way to learn good programming techniques though. For example, it takes a fair amount of training and practise in theoretical comp sci to write quality, production compilers and to do design for advanced systems ( hacking certainly doesn't teach you a whole lot about distributed OSs, pipelining, how to get generate parallel code from non-parallel high level langages, all of which are important for next-generation computer development ) -- Jon M. Allingham (201)386-3466 AT&T Bell Laboratories-WH "Beam me up Scotty, no intelligent life down here!"
garys@bunker.UUCP (Gary M. Samuelson) (12/17/84)
> Mr. Samuelson seems to think writing code > because you enjoy it somehow destroys your discipline [and] that it is > incompatible with coding well. (Actually I apologize for putting > words in your mouth, a lot of messages with this gist have been > coming through). I accept your apology; you did indeed put words in my mouth. To do anything well requires both discipline and enjoyment. Although an abundance of either can make up for some lack of the other, it's best to have both. (Interesting that you accuse me of unjustly disparaging hackers and the next response suggests that I AM a hacker.) Gary Samuelson
rcb@rti-sel.UUCP (Randy Buckland) (12/18/84)
> > Which doesn't necessarily make them desireable or the best engineers. What > good is a good hacker that interferes with getting the *product* out the door > by refusing to cooperate? > Who said anything about being an engineer? who said anything about getting a product out the door? who said anything about refusing to cooperate? Where the H*LL do you get off trying to twist my one line statement around to suit your ideas (term used loosely). Most of the hackers I know will readily cooperate with anyone who asks them. They will usually take the time to answer any questions and thereby spread the knowledge that they have obtained in pursuit of hacking. They also have a desire to get the product out the door. But not just any product. They will apply their skills to make the product as good as it can be. It seems, however, that all you are interested in is getting a marginal product that does not take advantage of the capabilities of the machine and does not try to be as useful and powerful as possible. In that case, why don't you go work for IBM on that totally awful OS called CMS. Sounds like your kind of project. A system that will occasionally do what is desired after a long session of fighting the OS. Randy Buckland Research Triangle Institute ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb
reid@Glacier.ARPA (12/20/84)
I am the professor who teaches the weedout course at Stanford. It is called CS108, "Fundamentals of Computer Science". It is the third CS course that people take here (after Intro Programming and Intro Algorithms). I consider myself a pretty good hacker; I learned to program at the University of Maryland 20 years ago by stealing access to the IBM 7094, and I hacked for a living for 10 years before turning into a graduate student and then a professor. I have written several million lines of code in my life, and perhaps half of that code is still in use commercially. Here at Stanford I amuse myself by doing system hackery on my two Vax Unix systems when I get too depressed by dealing with whining students. Let me tell you why I insist on teaching the weedout course, and why I flunk about half the class. Raw brain power is not enough. Raw programming skill is not enough. For a person to be an effective software engineer in today's world, and for that person to be able to continue being effective as he turns 25, 30, 35, or 40, or older, he must learn more than just hackery. A student who wants to be a successful wizard for the rest of his life, rather than just being impressively smart for a 19-year-old, had better learn how to keep learning. He had also better learn about the principles that shape the design of his beloved favorite computer, and about the mathematics, physics, information theory, and computer science that explain the boundaries of the world of computers. When I was at Maryland I was very scornful of some of the faculty because I knew I was a better programmer than they were. In my 18-year-old view of the world, I saw it as a complete waste that I had to take all these dumb courses when I already knew more about the material than the person teaching it. Of course I didn't know more about the material, and I didn't have the perspective to see that I didn't know the material. My vanity at being such a good hacker clouded my vision for the big picture. I am now 35, old for a hacker, and I can still get away with challenging the students in my CS108 class to write a better program than me, or a faster, or smaller, or cleverer program. Most of the time I still beat them, though each year it gets harder. It doesn't get harder because they get better--it gets harder because I get older and my kid gets older and I can't quite put in the 12-hour marathon hacking sessions like I used to. Last year 2 students out of a class of 200 managed to beat my execution time in a speed contest; one of them got an A- because he bungled the midterm. So I teach the weedout course to make sure that students learn things whose worth they cannot yet comprehend. My being a good hacker does not make me any better at teaching the weedout course--its contents have very little to do with hackery--but it enables me to get their attention while I make them learn some computer science. A weedout course taught by someone who is not a gunslinger like me is still a perfectly legitimate course, even if the students can't see it yet. They will someday. Brian Reid decwrl!glacier!reid Stanford Reid@SU-Glacier.ARPA
kvc@scgvaxd.UUCP (Kevin Carosso) (12/27/84)
In article <> tli@uscvax.UUCP (Tony Li) writes: > >Harvey Mudd College (yes, I'm biased) does allow undergrads unlimited access >to their computers (almost). Uucp and source access seems to be a problem >currently, but this seems to be a momentary problem. Just to set the record straight, everyone at Mudd has access to UUCP mail through the VMS uucp gateway (the math dept. 750, called "ymir") on the ethernet. I know cause I put uucp on it and maintain it. Since they don't have netnews running under VMS right now, you have to use the CS group (not a department) 750 running 4.2 bsd. Unfortunately, they suffer from the same attitude the rest of the CS world has gotten, so netnews access is probably limited. /Kevin Carosso {anywhere important}!scgvaxd!engvax!kvc Hughes Aircraft Co. and sometimes Harvey Mudd College
braun@drivax.UUCP (Karl Braun) (12/28/84)
> > > > Which doesn't necessarily make them desireable or the best engineers. What > > good is a good hacker that interferes with getting the *product* out the door > > by refusing to cooperate? > > > > Who said anything about being an engineer? who said anything about > getting a product out the door? who said anything about refusing to cooperate? > Where the H*LL do you get off trying to twist my one line statement around > to suit your ideas (term used loosely). Most of the hackers I know will > readily cooperate with anyone who asks them. They will usually take the time > to answer any questions and thereby spread the knowledge that they have > obtained in pursuit of hacking. They also have a desire to get the product out > the door. But not just any product. They will apply their skills to make the > product as good as it can be. It seems, however, that all you are interested > in is getting a marginal product that does not take advantage of the > capabilities of the machine and does not try to be as useful and powerful > as possible. In that case, why don't you go work for IBM on that > totally awful OS called CMS. Sounds like your kind of project. A system > that will occasionally do what is desired after a long session of fighting > the OS. > > Randy Buckland > Research Triangle Institute > ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb Ouch! talk about twisting one line statements! My statement was far from a sweeping damnation of all hackers. If I have offended, please accept my apologies. It was a late night statement made after some wrestling with 'hacked' code made by someone who wasn't thinking about what he was doing. And before you fire another salvo, I don't mean to imply that anyone who considers himself a hacker doesn't think about what he is doing. I beleive the argument extends from the descrepencies in the definition of 'hacker'. When I made the comment, I was thinking of someone who hacks up someone elses code to do just what HE wants it to do, without regard to what happens to the code after he's through with it. My I ask how you managed to infer that all I'm interested in is getting a *maginal* product out the door? I think that if you knew me you would have a different opinion. -- kral ihnp4!-------- \ mot! ---------- \ ucbvax!unisoft! > drivax!braun ucscc!--------- / amdahl!------- /