Jim@sri-unix (07/12/82)
That nation has announced that they will try to put a man in space on their own by the end of the decade. Since we plan on providing space for spacers of most other nationalities on the shuttle, their promise that the technology will be "used for peaceful purposes only" does not ring true with me. Jim -------
Gail@sri-unix (07/12/82)
Date: 11 Jul 1982 2325-PDT
From: Jim McGrath <CSD.MCGRATH at SU-SCORE>
To: space at MIT-MC
cc: arms-d at MIT-MC
That nation has announced that they will try to put a man in space
on their own by the end of the decade. Since we plan on providing
space for spacers of most other nationalities on the shuttle, their
promise that the technology will be "used for peaceful purposes
only" does not ring true with me.
Indeed, why would they conceivably want to do something on their own if they
can be dependent on us instead!Jim@sri-unix (07/13/82)
Subject: Brazil in Space From: Gail Zacharias <GZ at MIT-MC> Indeed, why would they conceivably want to do something on their own if they can be dependent on us instead! Indeed, why would they? For commercial transport they should depend upon us (or rather hopefully US companies) just as people do for most high tech services. The only real justification for having an independent capability, especially one developed at a cost of billions of dollars, thousands of man-years of scarce scientists and engineers, and decades behind other nations, is for military reasons (national pride does NOT justify such a fantastic outlay - a smaller one dedicated to joint missions with the US or the USSR is another matter of course). In particular such technology can be used for ICBM development. Given that Brazil is ruled byy a military government, I really doubt they are going to expend all those resources and expect no new militaryy capabilities in return. Jim PS note that the same can be said of the US auto and steel industries, although here at least we make no bones that a major reason for having such large domestic capacity is to supply the military in times of crisis. I object to Brazil's blatant falsehoods about "peaceful" uses of space (along with India's about "peaceful" atomic "devices"), since misinformation is something that should be reduced whenever possible. -------
PATTERSON.Henr@PARC-MAXC@sri-unix (07/14/82)
Although I agree with Jim McGrath on the point that the Brazilian Government is likely to get military benefit from their space program, I must also support Gail Zacharias' point (Space Digest V2 #239). We (the good old USA) have once again proved how well our friend in South America can count on us, I.E. the Falklands' War. Richard
Chiron@sri-unix (07/16/82)
Howdy!
Date: 14 Jul 1982 12:52 EDT
From: PATTERSON.Henr at PARC-MAXC
Re: Brazil in Space
Although I agree with Jim McGrath on the point that the Brazilian
Government is likely to get military benefit from their space
program, I must also support Gail Zacharias' point (Space Digest
V2 #239). We (the good old USA) have once again proved how well
our friend in South America can count on us, I.E. the Falklands' War.
Richard
I really don't think the Argentines should have counted on us during
the Falklands' War. Clearly these people were the aggressors in this
action, and I think the US was rather restrained in its actions.
-------pcmcgeer (07/16/82)
Mr (Dr ?) McGrath's point is (almost) well-taken, save that it's possible to conceive of national interest and national rivalries outside of the military sphere. Any nation which is interested in a continuing prescence in space as a matter of long-term policy would be well advised to adopt their own transport program. Surely the motivation is obvious: *even if a nation's intentions are peaceful*, it would not wish to be beholden to another. I should hardly need to remind Americans of the Arab Lesson. As an example, suppose Brazil were interested in SPS's, or in space industries. If they relied on the Shuttle, they'd be open to American ransom at any time - and, *from a Brazilian perspective*, is the prospect of being held to ransom by us gringos such an unlikely event? (Please, no patriotic flames - I make no implications about our conduct). Even if ransom were considered unlikely by the Brazilians, is it fair to expect a nation to base what it sees as its future on the whims of the US Congress? I would think Proxmire alone would be sufficient incentive for any nation to desire its own launcher.... Cheers, Rick McGeer.
miles (07/20/82)
'From decvax!cca!Jim@sri-unix Indeed why would they? For commercial transport they should depend on us(or rather hopefully US companies)just as other people do for most high tech services. The only ... ' WHY??? Those Brazilians had better apologize for the blatant lies and misconceptions that they have been spreading. Really, do they think us so stupid as to not see their reasons for opening up their own space program. Their prmary purpose must be military. That idea is mostly BS , to Jim@sri-unix , please furnish me with conclusive proof or evidence of Brazils intentions in space. I hope you can. Why should Brazil or any other people depend on the US. Most transportat -ion devices that the US makes are not all that great. Most european countries make better stuff than the US does. i.e. Cars,trucks,boats,tins,... Many high tech systems from outside the US rival US high tech if not actually better. The only advantage the US has is that they can come up with more, faster. The only other advantage that the US has is that they are the only country that does have some sort of reusable space system. Just because they do, is it really so inconcievable that another country might want to do it themselves? By the way, Shuttle tech is not all that high. From Raymond S.