rond@pro-grouch.cts.com (Ron Dippold) (07/27/90)
Hey, if anyone has any information on 3200-color "standard" formats, let me
know. I had the net address of the guy who wrote the View 3200 program, but I
lost it! &^%!@!
Having given up my editor project (because ROSE and MicroEMacs seem to do
almost everything my editor was going to do...) I am hard at work on a IIgs
UnGiffer. The Apple // already has an excelent ungiffer for hi-res and
double-hires (what, no lo-res?), and SHRConvert has a few limitations. SO I
am looking at the following specs:
* View any size GIF (at least as big as you have memory for). I have a few
1024 x 768 GIFs to stretch-test this out!
* 5 pallette modes: standard 16-color best-fit, 16-shade grey-scale, default
pallette, and two special modes: 16 best-fits 16-color pallettes (for
use with something that can handle it like CheapPaint, which I'll have
to got, or Color N Canvas), and 3200-color mode, where we have a
different pallette for every line.
* Standard compression (squeeze 640*400 to 320*200, etc.)
I also want to be able to save the pictures, of course. The first five types
(oops, 4 types) are standard. The 3200 color picture files are NOT standard.
I am most interested in the 3201 format, which includes compression. I may
have to implement an extension for multi-screen documents. So I need the file
formats, or I'm going to have to disassemble a lot of code.
UUCP: crash!pro-grouch!rond
ARPA: crash!pro-grouch!rond@nosc.mil
INET: rond@pro-grouch.cts.comrussotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) (07/27/90)
In article <3433.apple.net2@pro-grouch> rond@pro-grouch.cts.com (Ron Dippold) writes: >I also want to be able to save the pictures, of course. The first five types >(oops, 4 types) are standard. The 3200 color picture files are NOT standard. >I am most interested in the 3201 format, which includes compression. I may >have to implement an extension for multi-screen documents. So I need the file >formats, or I'm going to have to disassemble a lot of code. I sympathize with you... I had a hard time finding the 3200 format too, including having to put up with flack from II-only people who didn't appreciate me reading the format on a mac. Anyway, here it is: typedef unsigned short paltype[16]; struct pict3200 { unsigned char data[32000]; /*the raw data from memory */ paltype pals[200] } (Yup, it's that simple-- except for one catch. The palettes are stored in reverse order-- i.e. pal[linenum][15] actually should be displayed when there is a 0-valued nybble in the data, anv vice-versa) If you find anything out about the compressed format, please let me know (I haven't seen any pictures in it) -- Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu ][, ][+, ///, ///+, //e, //c, IIGS, //c+ --- Any questions? Hey! Bush has NO LIPS!
toddpw@tybalt.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) (07/28/90)
russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) writes: >If you find anything out about the compressed format, please let me know >(I haven't seen any pictures in it) I have. I'll start posting them on comp.binaries.apple2. Todd Whitesel toddpw @ tybalt.caltech.edu
vortex@vpnet.chi.il.us (Jason J. Levit) (07/31/90)
If we've got this wonderful ability to create 3200 color pictures, shouldn't someone write a paint program to paint them? I don't think it would be all that hard to do. Also, how did people *get* those 3200 color pics? Is there a special type of conversion program? Is there a way to write one easily? A lot of unanswered questions for something that would get us some wonderful pictures. If someone came up with a conversion program or something, we could have some really *awesome* pictures! I hope you finish your UnGiffer for the GS, and include 3200 color capabilites in it. The pictures would come up 1,000 times better than they come out now, and they already come out wonderfully. This is such an untapped ability! Maybe we can start to make use of it... -- Jason J. Levit - KB9BUU | A good planet is hard to find. Let's save this one! vortex@vpnet.chi.il.us | Apple II Forever
jonah@amos.ucsd.edu (Jonah Stich) (08/01/90)
In article <26b4a100-582.3comp.sys.apple2-1@vpnet.chi.il.us> vortex@vpnet.chi.il.us (Jason J. Levit) writes: > > If we've got this wonderful ability to create 3200 color pictures, > shouldn't someone write a paint program to paint them? I don't think > it would be all that hard to do. Well, I know of three paint programs currently being developed. THere's the one I'm working on (Paint 3200, to match View 3200) which will be shareware ($20) and should be out about the end of the month (?!) Then there's one called Dream Graphix, which will be commercial ($69.95, I think) and, last I heard, will be released on Aug. 10 (?!?!) THen there's a third, which I've heard is MUCH more powerful than ours :(, but I don't really know much about it. As for it not being that hard, well, I just say that it's not the easiest tng I've ever written.... :) > Also, how did people *get* those 3200 color pics? Is there a special > type of conversion program? Is there a way to write one easily? A > lot of unanswered questions for something that would get us some > wonderful pictures. If someone came up with a conversion program or > something, we could have some really *awesome* pictures! Well, the current 3200 color pics have all been converted from other sources. John Brooks originally wrote a converter, resulting in the first images (the plane, the botle of wine, the apple logo, etc. More recently, the French United Crackers Klan wrote an IFF converter that took pictures from the Amiga and IBM and converted them--doing a DAMN good job, I might add. They are responsible for the 3200 color picture disk uploaded to America OnLine. Niether of these converters have been released. :( Ron Mercer is/was working on a converter that worked on the raw data files from various digitizers avaliable for the GS. I've seen some of these pictures, and, while they're better than the 16 color pictures, most of them don't turn out great. I know a beta version of this converter, called Emerald View, is avaliable on AO, in the Graphics forum. > I hope you finish your UnGiffer for the GS, and include 3200 color > capabilites in it. The pictures would come up 1,000 times better > than they come out now, and they already come out wonderfully. I'm not sure who this was directed at, but I do know that there are SEVERAL 3200 color GIF and IFF converters in the works, all to be released to the public. I would think that by this time next year, even if there is no new GS, that 3200 color graphics will be the standard for graphics. There's SO much you can do with them, it's amazing! > This is such an untapped ability! Maybe we can start to make use of > it... Ditto. The problem is that DISPLAYING them is quite a chore, but you CAN do animation while it's being displayed. The DreamGraphix demo that was uploaded to AO had both music and animation, while displaying a 3200 color pic! There are also rumors of a 3200 color GAME coming out soon (from the makers of Dream Graphix.) I really love this 3200 color stufand encourage EVERYONE who's at all interested to play around with it. If you need some help, feel free to send me EMail (jonah@amos.ucsd.edu). >Jason J. Levit - KB9BUU | A good planet is hard to find. Let's save this one! onah SJonah Stich
pirmann@athos.rutgers.edu (Dave Pirmann) (08/02/90)
In article <12116@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> jonah@amos.ucsd.edu (Jonah Stich) writes: > Ditto. The problem is that DISPLAYING them is quite a chore, but you CAN do > animation while it's being displayed. The DreamGraphix demo that was uploaded > to AO had both music and animation, while displaying a 3200 color pic! > There are also rumors of a 3200 color GAME coming out soon (from the makers > of Dream Graphix.) I really love this 3200 color stufand encourage EVERYONE > who's at all interested to play around with it. If you need some help, > feel free to send me EMail (jonah@amos.ucsd.edu). This demo disk... is it ftpable or mailable, etc? I would like to see it. -- David Pirmann pirmann@rutgers.edu Rutgers LCSR Operations pirmann@njin.BITNET
MQUINN%UTCVM@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (08/02/90)
>If we've got this wonderful ability to create 3200 color pictures...
Actually, it's as glamourus as it sounds, nor as easy or useful. To display
a 3200 color pic. Your CPU has to spend ALL of it's time switching the color
pallete3200 colors (and see it at the same time), that would be impossible (unle
ss you
have a TWGS (I -think- that would make it possible). because any code that
would read the mouse or call a toolbox routine, would throw off the timing
of switching the colors. The way they 3200 color deal works is, while the
electron beam in the monitor is scanning it's way accross and down the screen,
the computer is changing the color pallettes and timing is CRUCIAL in doing thi
s, that's why having the program do anything besides displaying the picture wou
ld be extremely difficult, if not impossible.
Also, the computer is limited in the way the 3200 colors are displayed. You
cannot have any pixel on the screen set to any one of the 3200 colors you want.
It's similar to the way a 256 color picture is displayed. With aEach horizonta
l line has it's own set of 16 colors and ONLY that set of 16 colors may be disp
layed on that line. (16 colors per line times 200 lines = 3200colors).
Hope this explains it a little
(I may be a little off on some of my technical details, but I know I'm close.)MQUINN%UTCVM@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (08/02/90)
>had both color AND animation while displaying a 3200 color pic!
Well, I s'pose it CAN be done then! WOW! I'm gonna have to get into this!rond@pro-grouch.cts.com (Ron Dippold) (08/02/90)
In-Reply-To: message from vortex@vpnet.chi.il.us > If we've got this wonderful ability to create 3200 color pictures, > shouldn't someone write a paint program to paint them? I don't think > it would be all that hard to do. Someone is working on that! It'll be called Dream Graphics. There's a demo of it going around (only a screen or two, but...) > capabilites in it. The pictures would come up 1,000 times better > than they come out now, and they already come out wonderfully. There's also two disks of 3200 color pictures going around from the guys in the French Underground Cracking Konnection. I have one of them, can't find the other. UUCP: crash!pro-grouch!rond ARPA: crash!pro-grouch!rond@nosc.mil INET: rond@pro-grouch.cts.com
jonah@amos.ucsd.edu (Jonah Stich) (08/02/90)
In article <9008020029.AA01917@apple.com> MQUINN%UTCVM@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU writes: >Actually, it's as glamourus as it sounds, nor as easy or useful. To display >a 3200 color pic. Your CPU has to spend ALL of it's time switching the color >pallete3200 colors (and see it at the same time), that would be impossible (unl >ss you >have a TWGS (I -think- that would make it possible). because any code that >would read the mouse or call a toolbox routine, would throw off the timing >of switching the colors. The way they 3200 color deal works is, while the >electron beam in the monitor is scanning it's way accross and down the screen, >the computer is changing the color pallettes and timing is CRUCIAL in doing thi >s, that's why having the program do anything besides displaying the picture wou >ld be extremely difficult, if not impossible. Well, you're almost right. The IIgs is capable of doing a lot more than most people give it credit for, and easily displaying 3200 color pictures is one of those things. For instance, 3200 color animation is entirely possible, I've even seen it with my own four eyes! :) You are, right, though, that toolbox calls are pretty much out. :( >Also, the computer is limited in the way the 3200 colors are displayed. You >cannot have any pixel on the screen set to any one of the 3200 colors you want. >It's similar to the way a 256 color picture is displayed. With aEach horizonta >l line has it's own set of 16 colors and ONLY that set of 16 colors may be disp >layed on that line. (16 colors per line times 200 lines = 3200colors). True, but with good dithering and some careful color palette coices, the pictures that can be created are truly quite amazing. I think the important thing here is not to focus on the limitations, but instead to think of the POSSIBILITIES! 3200 color graphics are really taking off! Jonah Stich
jonah@amos.ucsd.edu (Jonah Stich) (08/02/90)
In article <3615.apple.net2@pro-grouch> rond@pro-grouch.cts.com (Ron Dippold) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from vortex@vpnet.chi.il.us > >> If we've got this wonderful ability to create 3200 color pictures, >> shouldn't someone write a paint program to paint them? I don't think >> it would be all that hard to do. > Someone is working on that! It'll be called Dream Graphics. There's a demo >of it going around (only a screen or two, but...) Hey, there are THREE 3200 color paint programs in development: Dream Graphix, Paint 3200 (mine!) and a third that I've only heard rumors about but which is supposed to be thin king of 3200 color paint programs! :( >> capabilites in it. The pictures would come up 1,000 times better >> than they come out now, and they already come out wonderfully. >There's also two disks of 3200 color pictures going around from the guys in >the French Underground Cracking Konnection. I have one of them, can't find >the other. Actually, that's the French United Crackers Klan, but yes, the pictures are QUITE incredible! >INET: rond@pro-grouch.cts.com Jonah Stich
jonah@amos.ucsd.edu (Jonah Stich) (08/02/90)
In article <Aug.1.13.34.13.1990.27365@athos.rutgers.edu> pirmann@athos.rutgers.edu (Dave Pirmann) writes: >In article <12116@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> jonah@amos.ucsd.edu (Jonah Stich) writes: > >> Ditto. The problem is that DISPLAYING them is quite a chore, but you CAN do >> animation while it's being displayed. The DreamGraphix demo that was uploaded >> to AO had both music and animation, while displaying a 3200 color pic! >This demo disk... is it ftpable or mailable, etc? I would like to see it. >-- >David Pirmann pirmann@rutgers.edu Well, actually it's only a file (not a disk) and I don't think it's ftpable (although I'm not sure). I'm planning on posting it to comp.binaries.apple2 later today or tomorrow, unless anyone objects. :) Jonah Stich
johnmac@fawlty.towers.oz (John MacLean) (08/03/90)
In article <26b4a100-582.3comp.sys.apple2-1@vpnet.chi.il.us> vortex@vpnet.chi.il.us (Jason J. Levit) writes: > > If we've got this wonderful ability to create 3200 color pictures, > shouldn't someone write a paint program to paint them? I don't think > it would be all that hard to do. Apparently Dream Graphics is just that - but I'm yet to see anything but a title page. And you are wrong - it is very hard to do - just to display a 3200 color picture you need almost all the CPU cycles. > Also, how did people *get* those 3200 color pics? Is there a special > type of conversion program? Is there a way to write one easily? Apparently there are a couple of conversion programs already. The Frech IFF (Amiga standard file format) converter for one. I have now written a 3200 toolset for The Graphic Exchange - I just finished coding last night. It can load and save Brooks format, French format, and Brain format images. > I hope you finish your UnGiffer for the GS, and include 3200 color > capabilites in it. The pictures would come up 1,000 times better > than they come out now, and they already come out wonderfully. I should be able to display GIFs in 3200 colors now - I havn't actually tried it - I've been too busy with the 3200 load and save routines. The thing about GIF is that you are limited to 256 colors, so 3200 colors is not that great an advantage. Once you are using all 16 palettes (and you are doing some good quantizing) you are already using UP TO 256 colors. In practice 256 color pictures tend to quantize down to less than 100 colors (at least with the algorithm I am using anyway). You do get a slight advantage; GIFs in 3200 colors have a seperate palette for *EVERY* scanline. Once I have done some tests I'll post some results - should be this weekend. >Jason J. Levit - KB9BUU | A good planet is hard to find. Let's save this one! >vortex@vpnet.chi.il.us | Apple II Forever John MacLean. -- This net: johnmac@fawlty.towers.oz.au Phone: +61 2 427 2999 That net: uunet!fawlty.towers.oz.au!johnmac Fax: +61 2 427 7072 Snail: Tower Technology, Unit D 31-33 Sirius Rd, Home: +61 2 960 1453 Lane Cove, NSW 2066, Australia.
rond@pro-grouch.cts.com (Ron Dippold) (08/03/90)
In-Reply-To: message from MQUINN%UTCVM@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU > have a TWGS (I -think- that would make it possible). because any code > that would read the mouse or call a toolbox routine, would throw off > the timing of switching the colors. The way they 3200 color deal works It's SO tight in fact, that on a standard IIgs (not Transwarp, that makes it a lot easier) I have to basically make the pallette area into a stack and push the colors onto it in order to get it to run fast enough. UUCP: crash!pro-grouch!rond ARPA: crash!pro-grouch!rond@nosc.mil INET: rond@pro-grouch.cts.com
throoph@jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU (Henry Throop) (08/03/90)
In article <26b4a100-582.3comp.sys.apple2-1@vpnet.chi.il.us> vortex@vpnet.chi.il.us (Jason J. Levit) writes: > Also, how did people *get* those 3200 color pics? Is there a special > type of conversion program? Is there a way to write one easily? A > lot of unanswered questions for something that would get us some > wonderful pictures. If someone came up with a conversion program or > something, we could have some really *awesome* pictures! I think according to the docs that came with John Brooks' original 3200 viewer, he used a program he had written to convert the pictures from HAM mode images on an Amiga. Ther may have also been some converted from IBM, but I'm not sure. Henry >Jason J. Levit - KB9BUU | A good planet is hard to find. Let's save this one! >vortex@vpnet.chi.il.us | Apple II Forever --- Henry Throop Internet: throoph@jacobs.cs.orst.edu
russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) (08/04/90)
In article <431@fawlty.towers.oz> johnmac@fawlty.ips.oz (John MacLean) writes: >I should be able to display GIFs in 3200 colors now - I havn't actually tried >it - I've been too busy with the 3200 load and save routines. >The thing about GIF is that you are limited to 256 colors, so 3200 colors is >not that great an advantage. Well, actually, I have not seen a '3200' color picture with more than 256 colors (with the exception of one that was made specifically to show 3200 colors). The duplication is enormous. >Once you are using all 16 palettes (and you are doing some good quantizing) >you are already using UP TO 256 colors. >In practice 256 color pictures tend to quantize down to less than 100 colors >(at least with the algorithm I am using anyway). Is the algorithm you are using a 'standard' of some sort? If so, can you point me to some info on it? -- Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu ][, ][+, ///, ///+, //e, //c, IIGS, //c+ --- Any questions? Hey! Bush has NO LIPS!
MQUINN%UTCVM@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (08/04/90)
(the subject is supposed to be SoundSmith). Well, SoundSmith is FINALLY working! Several people have e-mailed me suggesting that I de-activate some NDA's or remove some CDEV's. Well, I didn't have any extra CDEV's, but I had SEVERAL NDA's. I de-activated them and Sound Smith boots up no problem now (v0.90, not 0.94, I don't have 0.94, but I would imagine it's the same). So, if you're one of the 78 million people who can't get it to work, try that.
rond@pro-grouch.cts.com (Ron Dippold) (08/04/90)
In-Reply-To: message from jonah@amos.ucsd.edu > Actually, that's the French United Crackers Klan, but yes, the pictures > are QUITE incredible! I believe they've changed names. I could almost swear they called themselves the French Underground Cracking Konnection or something similar back when they were only into cracking software. UUCP: crash!pro-grouch!rond ARPA: crash!pro-grouch!rond@nosc.mil INET: rond@pro-grouch.cts.com
joshuat@pro-sol.cts.com (Joshua M. Thompson) (08/04/90)
In-Reply-To: message from jonah@amos.ucsd.edu I believe Dream Graphix is the program being developed by Jason Andersen, the same guy who wrote MouseLink (the ProTERM add-on). I talked to him a few months ago, but since I've moved I haven't called to give him my new phone number, so I don't know the status of the program.
hzink@alchemy.UUCP (Harry K. Zink) (08/12/90)
I do agree that the 3200 color display and manipulation technology is an exciting thing for the ailing GS. It is just unfortunate that people liek Jason Harper, judging from an interchange of information I had with him while working on the Visionary project by the ill fated Virtual Realities, find this technology to be useless and not working. I'm just glad to see that enough people are working on display and paint programs using 3200 display to indicate that not only does interest exist, but people support it. | INET: hzink@alchemy.UUCP | Interested in making $800,000.00 a year? | | UUCP: ucrmath!alchemy!hzink | $ Send E-Mail For More Information $ | +-----------------------------+---------------------+--------------------+ | "Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what | "Bishop! Hey man!" | | can't be done and why. Then do it." -Lazarus Long | --Hudson, _Aliens_ |
toddpw@tybalt.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) (08/14/90)
hzink@alchemy.UUCP (Harry K. Zink) writes: >I do agree that the 3200 color display and manipulation technology is an >exciting thing for the ailing GS. It is just unfortunate that people liek >Jason Harper, judging from an interchange of information I had with him while >working on the Visionary project by the ill fated Virtual Realities, find this >technology to be useless and not working. Jason Harper doesn't deserve to program the GS. This guy gives up too easily: 1. He says the VOC can't be sync'd to. Bull. You call poll VBL from it, among other things. 2. His 3D rotation program INSISTS on using the 'official' apple math software IN REALTIME !! Hasn't this guy ever heard about precomputed tables? 3. His GIF decoder (SHRConvert 2.1) won't allow any image larger than 64K and it is S-L-O-W... I have a BASIC/ML hack that is three times faster. I think you get the idea. BTW, what's happened to the Visionary as a product? I never did get a chance to order one (college bills and all) or to tell you how to make a better genlock card than Apple's. Todd Whitesel toddpw @ tybalt.caltech.edu