philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) (08/09/90)
I just recently communicated with Sierra regarding GS and Mac support. Sierra will be releasing CD-ROM games such as Mixed up Mother Goose and King's Quest V. The descriptions sound wonderful to anyone who loves sound and graphics. The graphics' mode will be 320x200x256 (i.e. one of the VGA modes). At this time, they have no plans to support the Mac for these. Moreover, while they will have their SCI platform on the Mac shortly, they apparently have given up on the GS claiming it is "too slow" to support SCI. The priority for releases of Sierra products will be IBM, then Amiga(including the A3000),... This is extremely disappointing news from a GS,Mac and Apple CD-ROM user. Now that that's out of the way, perhaps someone could answer a more technical question? Can an Apple CD-ROM player be used with a PC, and read "PC" CD-ROM disks? Furthermore, can the PCT access the Apple CD-ROM via the GS SCSI port? That is does the AE PCT(a PC on a board) support SCSI devices? Finally, can the Orange Micro PC board in the MacII access the Apple CD-ROM and treat it as a "PC CD-ROM"? Sorry to mix Mac,PC,Amiga,GS issues into one message, but computers are meant for more than just work. Does Apple realize this? Philip McDunnough University of Toronto philip@utstat.toronto.edu [my opinions]
MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (08/09/90)
>Furthermore, can the PCT access the Apple-CD ROM via the GS SCSI port? >That is does the AE PCT(a PC on a board) support SCSI devices? The PCT will access a 'special' MS-DOS 'fake' partition on ANY ProDOS HD, no matter what kind of controller you're using (SCSI or non-SCSI). It will also access Apple CD-ROM files, but ONLY in the PCT Transfer utility. In other words, you have to run a PCT 'FID' program that reaches into ProDOS and copies a file to an MS-DOS disk or copies a file from MS-DOS to ProDOS, but it's not a command-line shell. In other words, you can't be at the MS-DOS prompt and load, save, and run files on an Apple CD-ROM disk. Now can you use an MS-DOS cd-rom with the PCT. As for supporting SCSI devices... well yes for HD's and MAYBE for printers, but definately not for scanners or anything like that.
MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (08/09/90)
>Now can you use an MS-DOS cd-rom with the PCT.
Excuse me... That should have been, "Nor can you use an....
^philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) (08/10/90)
In article <9008090419.AA25604@apple.com> MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET writes: > >>Furthermore, can the PCT access the Apple-CD ROM via the GS SCSI port? >>That is does the AE PCT(a PC on a board) support SCSI devices? > >The PCT will access a 'special' MS-DOS 'fake' partition on ANY ProDOS HD, >no matter what kind of controller you're using (SCSI or non-SCSI). It will >also access Apple CD-ROM files, but ONLY in the PCT Transfer utility. [further explanation deleted] Ok, the bottom line is this. There are "PC-CD-ROM disks". Can they be used on an Apple CD-ROM player attached to either a PC(with a SCSI adaptor), a MacII(with an Orange Micro PC card) and attached to the Mac SCSI port, or a GS with an AE PC Transporter and attached to the SCSI port of the GS? What I'm trying to get at is whether or not there is something about the Apple CD-ROM player(which I have) which would prevent me from using it with "PC CD-ROM programs", or do I have to go out and buy a CD ROM player(such as the NEC) which claims to work with both Apple and PC equipment? Brother, I thought SCSI was SCSI! Philip McDunnough University of Toronto philip@utstat.toronto.edu [my opinions]
rond@pro-grouch.cts.com (Ron Dippold) (08/10/90)
In-Reply-To: message from philip@utstat.uucp > Furthermore, can the PCT access the Apple CD-ROM via the GS SCSI port? > That is does the AE PCT(a PC on a board) support SCSI devices? I don't kinow about a CD-ROM, but my PCT definitely works with a SCSI hard drive. Could be that ProDOS is insulating it from the SCSI details, though. UUCP: crash!pro-grouch!rond ARPA: crash!pro-grouch!rond@nosc.mil INET: rond@pro-grouch.cts.com
MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (08/10/90)
>Ok, the bottom line is this. There are "PC-CD-ROM disks". Can they be >used on an Apple CD-ROM player attached to either a PC(with a SCSI adaptor), >a MacII(with an Orange Micro PC card) and attached to the Mac SCSI prot, >or a GS with an AE PC Transporter and attached to the SCSI port of the GS? I don't know about the Mac stuff, but a PC-CD-ROM disk CANNOT be used with an Apple CD-ROM player connected to the GS with a SCSI card and using a PC Transporter. >Brother, I thought SCSI was SCSI! SCSI IS SCSI, but there's no such thing as a SCSI CD-ROM -DISK-! The disk is either formatted with Hi Sierra, Mac HFS, or ProDOS (there very well may be other formats for CD's, but these are the only ones I'm familiar with). The GS wil support ONLY ProDOS formatted CD's, unless you happen to have an HFS FST, or a Hi Sierra FST (FST=File System Translator). As far as I know there are no Hi Sierra FST's for the GS. (although I may be wrong), but if there ARE those FST's in existance, I don't know how they'd be used, whether you'd need a special GS utility program to access the files on those disks (In that case, you definately couldn't use that CD with the PCT) or if it makes those files on the CD available to ProDOS cammands, such as typing CAT, BLOAD, etc.. (in wich case, you probably WOULD be able to use it), but I'm ALMOST positive there are no FST's like that (that would let you use PC CD's anyway). The way the PCT uses a Hard drive is like this: You must have a large amount of space on one of your HD partitions (enough for a PCT HD partition. What the PC patition REALLY is, is a -PRODOS- file a VERY LARGE ProDOS file... several megs... however many you specify. Then the PCT creates a file on the ProDOS partition named 'MSDOSVOL'. You may change the name later if you want... Then THAT -PRODOS- file containes the ms-dos block and directory information, as well as the ms-dos files. That PRODOS FILE is an 'emulated' ms-dos partition. So it doesn't matter what kind of Drive you HD is... whether it's SCSI or some comstome made job, as long as it has been formatted by ProDOS, then the PCT can make an 'emulated' partition on it. When the PCT accesses it's 'ms-dos partition', it has to tell the GS (or Any Apple II with a PCT) to tell PRODOS to load a certain block... because the drive is a PRODOS formatted drive. Then the PCT waits until PRODOS has loaded the information and given it to the PCT. Then the PCT puts it into its own memory and it appears to the user that ms-dos handled everything. >Brother, I thought SCSI was SCSI! SCSI is a HARDWARE type, not a DOS. You can't formatt something as SCSI. SCSI is the hardware that the fomatting/read/write commands have to travel through. If you were to format a SCSI HD on a PC, then bring it over to a GS. The GS wouldn't be able to make heads or tails of what's on the HD. The same is true if you formatted a HD with the GS, then took it over to an ms-dos machine. All SCSI does, is allow you to use that same SCSI drive on both machines.. but you'll have to format for the machine you'll be using it on. I have an Ehman SCSI HD on my GS. The drive, itself, is intended for a MAC, it even came with two MAC 3.5" disks to format the drive. Since I have a GS, those disks have done nothing but gathered dust. I used the software that came with my SCSI card to format the drive for ProDOS. Even though this drive is intended for a MAC, and it is now formatted, I could take this drive to a Mac, plug it in, and the Mac would think it's not formatted and if I intended to use it with the Mac, I'd have to reformat it for the Mac. So a CD works the same way (except you can't reformat it)... so a CD formatted for ms-dos or a mac, would be virtually useless on a GS and TOTALLY useless to the PCT.
toddpw@tybalt.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) (08/11/90)
MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET writes: >SCSI IS SCSI, but there's no such thing as a SCSI CD-ROM -DISK-! The disk >is either formatted with Hi Sierra, Mac HFS, or ProDOS (there very well may >be other formats for CD's, but these are the only ones I'm familiar with). There is also ISO 9660, the International and Official incarnation of Hi Sierra. The two are very similar, but I forget if they are different enough to require seperate FST's. >The GS wil support ONLY ProDOS formatted CD's, unless you happen to have >an HFS FST, or a Hi Sierra FST (FST=File System Translator). As far as I know >there are no Hi Sierra FST's for the GS. (although I may be wrong), but if There is a Hi Sierra FST available for the GS, HS.FST on the /system.tools disk (and probably on the SCSI utilities disk too, but I don't have that yet). >there ARE those FST's in existance, I don't know how they'd be used, whether >you'd need a special GS utility program to access the files on those disks You use the Installer on the /system.tools disk. Todd Whitesel toddpw @ tybalt.caltech.edu
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) (08/11/90)
In article <9008101615.AA22546@apple.com> MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET writes: >As far as I know there are no Hi Sierra FST's for the GS. ?? What about the one shipped with GS/OS 5.whatever? >... but if there ARE those FST's in existance, I don't know how they'd >be used, ... I don't think you understand what FSTs do. If you insert an ISO std CD-ROM you should be able to (from Finder) click on the drive icon and see the folder open up as usual. There are some constraints on file names and file types, which have to be kludged a bit (Apple described this in some volume of the GS/OS Ref. Man.), but basically the whole point of an FST is to make sure you DON'T have to do anything special at the application or user level in order to access the files. >SCSI is the hardware that the fomatting/read/write commands have to travel >through. It's more a protocol for using the bus than it is the bus proper, although both have to be correct to implement the SCSI spec. >so a CD formatted for ms-dos or a mac, would be virtually useless on a GS >and TOTALLY useless to the PCT. The reason for developing the ISO CD-ROM standard was to ensure interchange of data between different operating systems via the CD media. If the MS/DOS or MacOS system happens to support (and USE) the ISO standard, then the disk should be interchangeable with systems like the IIGS that also support the standard. It's the fact that MS/DOS is a godawful mess that encourages the use of MS/DOS-specific filesystem formats there, although I've been told that many MS/DOS CD-ROMs are standard-conformant. I also hear that MacOS CD-ROMS are virtually universally HFS-formatted instead of standard. I don't know what to do about this situation other than to complain loudly about it and spec ISO conformance when writing procurement requirements.
philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) (08/11/90)
In article <9008101615.AA22546@apple.com> MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET writes:
[detailed account of SCSI, PCT+SCSI,CD-ROM formats...]
Sorry to keep at this. I'm not making myself clear. So I'll try to rephrase
this in PC terms.
There is a Sierra PC program, meant to run on IBM type computers only. It is
a program, not a text file,etc... . The program's name is Mixed up Mother
Goose. Now the problem is, this progam is 250megs in size-too much for
distribution on floppies, and the floppy swapping would do a person in! So
it is placed on a CD-ROM disk. It is clear that the program can't run on a GS
or a Mac because it is meant for a different cpu.
Now I have an Apple CD-ROM PLAYER. I don't have a PC. I have a GS and a Mac.
I want to run this program, so I am prepared to buy an IBM type computer for
the SOLE purpose of running Mixed up Mother Goose, which happens to be a
250meg program.
The question is: Do I have to buy another CD-ROM player, or can I use the
Apple CD-ROM player with this IBM computer bought for the purpose of running
this progam?
Hope that clarifies the problem!
Philip McDunnough
University of Toronto
philip@utstat.toronto.edu
[my opinions]MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (08/13/90)
>>As far as I know there are no Hi Sierra FSTs for the GS. > >?? What about the one shipped with GS/OS 5.whatever? I don't know??? What about it? I didn't say, "There ARE NO..." I said, "As far as I know.... >>... but if there ARE those FSTs in existence, I don't know how they'd >>be used ... > >I don't think you understand what FSTs do... Actually, I -DO- know what they do...(they're used to access disks of other formats). I just don't know, exactly, how they go about doing it... and that's basically what I said.
dlyons@Apple.COM (David A. Lyons) (08/13/90)
In article <9008122209.AA18535@apple.com> MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET writes: >[...] >Actually, I -DO- know what they do...(they're used to access disks of other >formats). I just don't know, exactly, how they go about doing it... and >that's basically what I said. The job of GS/OS File System Translators is to let applications access files on different kinds of disks, without the application having to know or care what kind of disk it is. As long as an application doesn't go and try to read blocks directly off disk, or assume that filenames will only be 15 characters, or stuff like that (see GS/OS Reference and the GS/OS Technical Notes), it just "works." Currently there are File System Translators for ProDOS, AppleShare, and High Sierra/ISO 9660. There are likely to be more in the future. (Because of the way GS/OS is designed, all FSTs will come from Apple for the forseeable future.) -- David A. Lyons, Apple Computer, Inc. | DAL Systems Apple II Developer Technical Support | P.O. Box 875 America Online: Dave Lyons | Cupertino, CA 95015-0875 GEnie: D.LYONS2 or DAVE.LYONS CompuServe: 72177,3233 Internet/BITNET: dlyons@apple.com UUCP: ...!ames!apple!dlyons My opinions are my own, not Apple's.
MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (08/13/90)
Thanks for the info about the FSTs David. BTW, I couldn't tell from the message, but will ProDOS 8 be able to take advantage of the FSTs?
dlyons@Apple.COM (David A. Lyons) (08/18/90)
In article <9008131440.AA25104@apple.com> MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET writes: > >Thanks for the info about the FSTs David. BTW, I couldn't tell from the >message, but will ProDOS 8 be able to take advantage of the FSTs? No, File System Translators are a GS/OS thing. But ProDOS 8 applications could read foreign file systems directly, if they're willing to go to the trouble. They could even use SmartPort calls to see the CD-ROM partitions even when ProDOS 8 doesn't see them (beyond the 2nd partition on the SCSI chain, or the 4th if the SCSI card is in slot 5). -- David A. Lyons, Apple Computer, Inc. | DAL Systems Apple II Developer Technical Support | P.O. Box 875 America Online: Dave Lyons | Cupertino, CA 95015-0875 GEnie: D.LYONS2 or DAVE.LYONS CompuServe: 72177,3233 Internet/BITNET: dlyons@apple.com UUCP: ...!ames!apple!dlyons My opinions are my own, not Apple's.