unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu (The Unknown User) (08/30/90)
In response to Larry Virden: <The formats that I have in mind are Sun SPARCstation 1 tar 3.5" <(or is that Unix tar or cpio format?) as well as MS-DOS format. The goal <ultimately would be to have a utility which would look at a floppy and <tell you : >This is CP/M, MS/DOS, OS/2, Unix, Mac 400, Mac 800, Mac 1.4, or whatever, >and THEN let you extract info from it. < >Extending it to write some or all of these would be great as well. < >Then a TRUE file exchange program would be in place. If the program was <designed to easily extend, and the format for the modules and data files >for user provided extensions could be provided, then folks with Atari, <Amiga, etc. could also write modules and we could get graphics, sounds, <etc. from ALL of those guys! Boy, wouldnt THAT be neat? It seems to me that what you're describing is virtually exactly what the idea of FSTs is supposed to give us! If Apple would just release the format of FSTs or release some more, then we wouldn't need these special programs like "Apple II File Exchange". -- / Apple II(GS) Forever! unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu \ \ Computer engineering student seeking a job. /
mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) (08/30/90)
In article <6430@darkstar.ucsc.edu> unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu (The Unknown User) writes: > >>Then a TRUE file exchange program would be in place. If the program was ><designed to easily extend, and the format for the modules and data files >>for user provided extensions could be provided, then folks with Atari, ><Amiga, etc. could also write modules and we could get graphics, sounds, ><etc. from ALL of those guys! Boy, wouldnt THAT be neat? > It seems to me that what you're describing is virtually exactly >what the idea of FSTs is supposed to give us! > If Apple would just release the format of FSTs or release some >more, then we wouldn't need these special programs like "Apple II File >Exchange". > >-- > / Apple II(GS) Forever! unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu \ > \ Computer engineering student seeking a job. / No, it isn't. It's not what he's talking about at all. Programs like Apple File Exchange (AFE, the Macintosh one - I haven't used Chan Wilson's program very much so I won't presume to comment on it) do two useful things: 1) They translate files from one physical file system to another. This will be done by FSTs under GS/OS when you copy a file between two different file systems. 2) They translate file *formats*. You may not have noticed, but in AFE you can put in two disks of the same file system and AFE will give you a "Mac to Mac" or "ProDOS to ProDOS" or "MS-DOS to MS-DOS" menu. AFE has modular translators. These translators contain code to translate items from one file format to another. For example, Microsoft ships the "Works-to-Works" translator with Microsoft Works - it translates AppleWorks (classic) files into Microsoft Works files, retaining all the formatting in the word processor (for example). FSTs can not translate file formats and most reasonable people will agree that they should not. That still leaves plenty of room for a very useful file translation program that translates between similar but different file formats under GS/OS. With FSTs, though, you don't have to write tons of icky low- level code to read alternate file systems. I'd be interested in helping design such a program if someone else was also interested. -- ============================================================================ Matt Deatherage, Apple Computer, Inc. | "The opinions represented here are Developer Technical Support, Apple II | not necessarily those of Apple Group. Personal mail only, please. | Computer, Inc. Remember that." ============================================================================
toddpw@tybalt.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) (08/31/90)
mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) writes: >FSTs can not translate file formats and most reasonable people will agree that >they should not. That still leaves plenty of room for a very useful file >translation program that translates between similar but different file formats >under GS/OS. With FSTs, though, you don't have to write tons of icky low- >level code to read alternate file systems. >I'd be interested in helping design such a program if someone else was >also interested. Why hasn't APPLE done it yet? A simple port of Apple File Exchange (you'd have to recompile the modules or write new ones of course) would work nicely. Apple File Exchange needs to have its prodos driver rewritten, anyway -- it takes FOREVER to write out to a prodos disk. Even AppleShare is faster (jeez). Chan Wilson's program reads HFS disks as fast as the P8 disk driver will go. Hence, I use AFE to read Prodos on a Mac, and Chan Wilson's A2FX to read HFS on a //. Todd Whitesel toddpw @ tybalt.caltech.edu
mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) (08/31/90)
In article <1990Aug30.190708.20402@laguna.ccsf.caltech.edu> toddpw@tybalt.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) writes: > >Why hasn't APPLE done it yet? A simple port of Apple File Exchange (you'd >have to recompile the modules or write new ones of course) would work nicely. > Because if you actually *knew* anything about Apple File Exchange instead of taking the easy but popular stance that every unexplored capability is a breach of faith by Apple Computer, you'd know that it's designed around the Macintosh operating system and would require serious redesigning to work on any other platform. It was a third-party program called "PassPort" which Apple purchased because it was so useful. >Apple File Exchange needs to have its prodos driver rewritten, anyway -- it >takes FOREVER to write out to a prodos disk. Even AppleShare is faster (jeez). > Gee...something designed for the Apple II is better at Apple II things than a Macintosh. Imagine that. We do have a faster Macintosh-based ProDOS disk driver. It's called "DuplicateIIgs", and is one of the MPW IIgs cross-development tools. It started as the guts from AFE as an MPW tool and was subsequently enhanced to be much faster and copy resource forks. Re-integrating it back into Apple File Exchange hasn't been easy, apparently. >Chan Wilson's program reads HFS disks as fast as the P8 disk driver will go. > So does ProDOS. What's your point? Apple File Exchange couldn't use the "ProDOS disk driver," anyway, since it doesn't run on an Apple II. -- ============================================================================ Matt Deatherage, Apple Computer, Inc. | "The opinions represented here are Developer Technical Support, Apple II | not necessarily those of Apple Group. Personal mail only, please. | Computer, Inc. Remember that." ============================================================================
vw3@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Vernon Williams) (08/31/90)
In article <44419@apple.Apple.COM> mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) writes: [Stuff about FST's and Apple File Exchange deleted] > >I'd be interested in helping design such a program if someone else was >also interested. >-- [Matt's signature eaten by passing dogcow] Would that I were a programmer! I think this is a great idea! It would certainly make alot of people's lives easier. (or at least mine!) I'm dissapointed that such an item didn't come with the IIGS System Software.I think that it would pacify >>some<< of the people who are very eager to see FST's live up to their potential. And would provide developers with a means to create translators for the interchange of data between the GS and other computer platforms. +-------------------------------------------------------+--------------------+ |Vernon Williams | vw3@cunixf | |Evening Supervisor/Library Assistant +--------------------+ |Thomas J. Watson Library of Business and Economics | 130 Uris Hall |
mmunz@pro-beagle.cts.com (Mark Munz) (09/01/90)
In-Reply-To: message from mattd@Apple.COM >1) They translate files from one physical file system to another. This will >be done by FSTs under GS/OS when you copy a file between two different file >systems. > >2) They translate file *formats*. You may not have noticed, but in AFE you >can put in two disks of the same file system and AFE will give you a "Mac to >Mac" or "ProDOS to ProDOS" or "MS-DOS to MS-DOS" menu. Ah... but Remember, there are programs (such as MacWrite II) which will import a "raw copy" of an AppleWorks file int MWII w/ most formatting. And Claris (Apple) was trying to promote this technology (XTND) as a standard for all Mac applications.. Thus if we could just read PRODOS disks on the Macintosh, we wouldn't have to go through AFE at all (once the standard is adopted). >AFE has modular translators. These translators contain code to translate >items from one file format to another. For example, Microsoft ships the >"Works-to-Works" translator with Microsoft Works - it translates AppleWorks >(classic) files into Microsoft Works files, retaining all the formatting in >the word processor (for example). Here's a question.. why is it that Microsoft's "Works-to-Works" (which, btw.. still only does AW 2.x format) is about 10000 times faster than Apple's Text converter?? Mark Munz
mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) (09/07/90)
In article <22843.chatter.infoapple@pro-beagle> mmunz@pro-beagle.cts.com (Mark Munz) writes: > >Ah... but Remember, there are programs (such as MacWrite II) which will >import a "raw copy" of an AppleWorks file int MWII w/ most formatting. > >And Claris (Apple) was trying to promote this technology (XTND) as a >standard for all Mac applications.. Thus if we could just read PRODOS >disks on the Macintosh, we wouldn't have to go through AFE at all (once >the standard is adopted). > Unless no one has written an XTND translator yet and an AFE translator exists, in which case you can get useful work done by using AFE or you can complain a whole lot and garner little sympathy. >Here's a question.. why is it that Microsoft's "Works-to-Works" (which, >btw.. still only does AW 2.x format) is about 10000 times faster than >Apple's Text converter?? > Dunno. Probably because the built-in text converter has a bunch of options regarding changing CR to CR/LF, stripping 8-bit ASCII to 7-bit ASCII, etc., and Works-to-Works doesn't have any such run-time options. >Mark Munz -- ============================================================================ Matt Deatherage, Apple Computer, Inc. | "The opinions represented here are Developer Technical Support, Apple II | not necessarily those of Apple Group. Personal mail only, please. | Computer, Inc. Remember that." ============================================================================
bchurch@oucsace.cs.OHIOU.EDU (Bob Church) (09/08/90)
> >AFE has modular translators. These translators contain code to translate > >items from one file format to another. For example, Microsoft ships the > >"Works-to-Works" translator with Microsoft Works - it translates AppleWorks > >(classic) files into Microsoft Works files, retaining all the formatting in > >the word processor (for example). > I'm primarily an Apple // user but occasionally need to xfer to MSWorks. I can't get the "direct" xfer to work. Is this something that is done from within MSWorks or is there an AFE module that is used in conjunction with the AFE program that comes with the Mac system disk? bob church bchurch.oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu
mmunz@pro-beagle.cts.com (Mark Munz) (09/15/90)
In-Reply-To: message from mattd@Apple.COM
{
>Unless no one has written an XTND translator yet and an AFE translator
exists,
>in which case you can get useful work done by using AFE or you can complain
>a whole lot and garner little sympathy.
That's great if the AFE translators really performed. Unfortunately, all
of Apple's translators (except for maybe the "raw-data") take forever.
>>Here's a question.. why is it that Microsoft's "Works-to-Works" (which,
>>btw.. still only does AW 2.x format) is about 10000 times faster than
>>Apple's Text converter??
>Dunno. Probably because the built-in text converter has a bunch of options
>regarding changing CR to CR/LF, stripping 8-bit ASCII to 7-bit ASCII, etc.,
>and Works-to-Works doesn't have any such run-time options.
Come on.. those options aren't going to slow it down, UNLESS AFE reads
ONE BYTE at a time and processes it. I hope it is not that stupid. Can
you say 'memory buffers'..
I've processed a 900K file (in which I need to compare char, words,
repeating char, etc -- you know lots of char processing) on a Mac in
less time than AFE handles a 50K textfile conversion.
I think that pretty much says it all.
Mark Munz