philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) (09/01/90)
There have been so many comments regarding the sad state of the GS these days( especially surrounding the Ultima issue) that I feel some other perspective on the matter couldn't hurt. It has been said that returning the GS to a healthy state is an almost impossible task. People worry about the state of the Mac, and the perceived lack of software for both computers. People think Windows3.0 will have a detrimental effect on the Mac, GS. There is a certain myth going around that a home maket exists for computers. Moreover it is also thought that people will want the 386,030 cpu's etc... in this "market". IBM's PS/1 is aimed at the home, and uses a 286 and is simple to set up, not powerful in comparison to other computers, and has a great support structure in place. This computer will probably do well, because people do not necessarily need power at home, they want ease of use, support and a connection with either work or education or both. Note that this computer does not use Windows3.0, and it appears that IBM is not the greatest fan of Windows in the first place. The market for computers at home is potentially very large. However, except for self-employed people and the like, what really does exist is a home/education or home/business. Of the two, it is my feeling that people care more for their children than they do about Excel. The GS has strong links to education and a closer integration with the Mac line from Apple would give it the potential for the occasional work use. A GS can be networked to a Mac, data interchange utilities should be improved and the GS should be upgraded speed-wise and graphics' wise. Although, it is quite interesting to compare a program such as Katie's Farm on both the GS and the PS/1. Apart from the sound issue(which can be solved on the PS/1 with an add-on) the GS's graphics for that program are much better! Apple would be wise to maintain a difference between its two computer lines.The fact that the GS can be marketed as a FAMILY computer is important. This is something which no other computer can claim. The GS is "family computer" with its main links to education. It should be marketed as such at an affordable price. In fact, of the GS is far from extinction. Jewels do not go away easily. As for some of the "entertainment distributors" who have stopped supporting the GS recently, I assume they come and go. Most have produced software which has demonstrated a lack of imagination. Educational games, music, CD-ROM,etc...This is the future and the GS is ready for it. Some quality arcade games(eg. games from Taito, Xenocide,etc..) are nice to have. We don't need thousands. Just the best. I would not underestimate the networking capabilities, the Finder and the users which support both the GS and the Mac. Things are falling into place. The future is bright. I wish people would stop overestimating the appeal of the clones with Windows. Philip McDunnough University of Toronto philip@utstat.toronto.edu [my opinions]
nrunyon%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Neil Runyon) (09/02/90)
In article <1990Sep1.025620.7757@utstat.uucp> philip@utstatsun.uucp (Philip McDunnough) writes: >There have been so many comments regarding the sad state of the GS these >days( especially surrounding the Ultima issue) that I feel some other >perspective on the matter couldn't hurt. > >It has been said that returning the GS to a healthy state is an almost >impossible task. People worry about the state of the Mac, and the perceived >lack of software for both computers. People think Windows3.0 will have a >detrimental effect on the Mac, GS. [tons cut...see article #5110] I agree that the GS has alot of potential, and I agree with quite a bit of what Philip says. Personally, I see things in the Apple II that you just don't see with other computers. One is the number of "Hackers" that go and learn their machine inside out, add on boards, EPROMS, etc. This is the kind of stuff that Apple II users are famous for, and something that is quite appealing to those who do. I also find the ability to switch between a window and shell enviorn- ment a nessesity. Grant, you can do this on an IBM, but to tell you the truth, Windows on the IBM just doesn't cut it (even 3.0). The Apple windows are far superior to anything else on the market (Apple being both computers). There are still quite a few "die-hards" for the Apple II that would support the new II in a second. The current status of the II may not be the best, but then again, look at where the Amiga stood for 4 years. The II can make a comeback! The support is getting there, not so much from the large companies that were built on Apple, but a good deal of new little ones that want to keep the II alive, and give the users the kind of support that we have lost. Look at 8/16...the magazine has boomed since it was introduced, and a few compaines like Tatio and Britanicca are still supporting us, now we need to support them. We the users on the Apple II can bring the computer back, and back to glory...the only question is how badly do we want to? Neil - II Infinitum ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil M. Runyon Still running on my Apple IIgs ROM 1 University of Utah - CS Dept Woz machine, 1.75 Megs Ram, 65 M HD nrunyon@peruvian.utah.edu 4 Speakers, and one Sony TV/Monitor
coxr@ecn.purdue.edu (Richard L Cox) (09/06/90)
Article 3802 of comp.sys.apple2: >From: philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2 Subject: GS?(long) Date: 1 Sep 90 02:56:20 GMT <deleted> >lack of software for both computers. People think Windows3.0 will have a >detrimental effect on the Mac, GS. Have you seen Window's 3.0? There is a certain myth going around that a home maket exists for computers. Moreover it is also thought that people will want the 386,030 cpu's etc... in this "market". >IBM's PS/1 is aimed at the home, and uses a 286 and is simple to set >up, not powerful in comparison to other computers, and has a great >support structure in place. This computer will probably do well, Anyone remember the PC jr.? IBM PC ---> PC jr. IBM PS/2 ---> IBM PS/1 IBM is on the 3 steps forward 2 steps back kind of progression. They seem to say, "Look at this new technology high performance machine. Hey I know guys, lets see how many things we can take out and see if it still runs... grab the chip puller and soldering iron." >I would not underestimate the networking capabilities, the Finder and >the users which support both the GS and the Mac. Things are falling >into place. The future is bright. I wish people would stop >overestimating the appeal of the clones with Windows. Bravo! Let's hear it for Apple... The educational market is flooded with apple stuff. Apples best move ever was giving the schools all of those apples years ago, and giving the cut prices to them now. The big problem is they need to re-evaluate their design process. They have good idea in the GS but are depending on the support of outside companies namely Applied Engineering to make it useful. Come on Apple, make your own transwarp GS and put it on the mother-board. Call it the Apple IIGSX - Turbo Twin Cam etc. etc. etc. You are making others work too hard like, the GS itself and Claris to name one. AWGS is a great attempt at useful tool but if you try to run a BMW with a lawn-mower engine you look great and go no place fast. The opinons stated here are those of several GS-users-going-to-macs and Saddam Hussein. (just ask him) coxr@en.ecn.purdue.edu American Online : Rich Kid ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "And the kids they dance, they shake their bones" -GD peace, -Rich
philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) (09/06/90)
In article <1990Sep6.033541.25581@ecn.purdue.edu> coxr@ecn.purdue.edu (Richard L Cox) writes: > ><deleted> >>lack of software for both computers. People think Windows3.0 will have a >>detrimental effect on the Mac, GS. >Have you seen Window's 3.0? I wouldn't have commented about it if I had not used it a lot( a lot more than you might imagine). What's your point? [stuff about my statement about the PS/1 deleted] >Anyone remember the PC jr.? I remember it quite well. Apart from the fact that 500,000 wer sold, the PS/1 is not the PCjr. It is essentially a model 30 PS/2 286 packaged for the home at quite a good price(which will drop quickly as clones come out). >IBM PC ---> PC jr. >IBM PS/2 ---> IBM PS/1 I don't deny that the PS/1 is not an MCA 386 PS/2. People don't need that much for the home. There are more important priorities. Ease of use, ease of setup, support,software,price,etc...Families typically do NOT want their power computerthey use at work to be sitting in their living room. People who do are either doing an enormous amount of extra work at home( consultants,etc...) or graduate students who seem to forever want faster computing and think that this is what families want. Time has progressed. The PCjr would not run most PC software. ThePS/1 will. It is the light work use home computer, with the ability to do other things. The GS is a family computer with ties to education, and I for one, do not want it turned into your run of the mill spreadsheet computer. That may be one use, but I'd rather the GS remain detached from mainstream business computing which can remove the soul from the computer. The educational roots of the GS are honourable ones, and it need only be improved speed-wise and graphics-wise in order to keep it a class act computer( this is apart from closer Mac connections which I have mentioned before). >IBM is on the 3 steps forward 2 steps back kind of progression. They >seem to say, "Look at this new technology high performance machine. Hey >I know guys, lets see how many things we can take out and see if it >still runs... grab the chip puller and soldering iron." This is just not true. The home market, as it is still being defined, is wide open and I doubt that anyone has converged on what families want as their home computer. I have my opinions, Apple and IBM have theirs( although to IBM's credit they are exploring the market, not with inovative hardware but with other marketing incentives which may appeal to the consumer- we have yet to hear from Apple, but I have every confidence that Apple will use its GS and Mac team to come up with an interesting approach). >The opinons stated here are those of several GS-users-going-to-macs Well I have been using Macs for years. They are nice computers. Personally I prefer the GS at home and a Mac/Unix system at work. I have better things to do at home than continue working on equipment for which I get paid at work. Philip McDunnough University of Toronto philip@utstat.toronto.edu [my opinions]
coxr@ecn.purdue.edu (Richard L Cox) (09/07/90)
>>The opinons stated here are those of several GS-users-going-to-macs > >Well I have been using Macs for years. They are nice computers. Personally >I prefer the GS at home and a Mac/Unix system at work. I have better things >to do at home than continue working on equipment for which I get paid at >work. There is nothing wrong with educational/family software running fast. And if you want ease of use for the family what is easier than the finder. For kids (who could run programs for themselves) they can just point and click. The applications can just sit on the desktop and away they go. If th PS/1 does not support Windows (I believe that was stated in the original article) That is a major drawback for ease of setup and use. (If the windows thing is not true this is of course not a valid point) I am just saying if Apple made a fast GS then not only could little Bobby play games but Dad could do the Taxes and Mom could start that catering business. (Or Mom--> taxes Dad--> catering). That would just be a more flexible system. Maybe Apple should just start including the Mega2 chip on the macs and do away with the GS? The new Mac LC (Low Cost) is to be released soon and is predicted to list for about 2100 dollars. Well add a monitor (on board video = no card) and you have about 3000 in the system which is what I have put in my GS to get a sometimes fast but very crashy GS. coxr@en.ecn.purdue.edu American Online : Rich Kid -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "And the kids they dance, they shake their bones" -GD peace, -Rich
bchurch@oucsace.cs.OHIOU.EDU (Bob Church) (09/07/90)
In article <1990Sep6.074237.19392@utstat.uucp>, philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) writes: ( in reply to ) > >Have you seen Window's 3.0? > > I wouldn't have commented about it if I had not used it a lot( a lot more than > you might imagine). What's your point? > Windows 3.0 seems to be one of those rare software packages that is even better than advertised. Many of it's really good features, like allowing the use of expanded memory, aren't mentioned all that much in the ads. bob church bchurch.oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu
seah@ee.rochester.edu (David Seah) (09/11/90)
In article <1876@oucsace.cs.OHIOU.EDU> bchurch@oucsace.cs.OHIOU.EDU (Bob Church) writes: >In article <1990Sep6.074237.19392@utstat.uucp>, philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) writes: > ( in reply to ) >> >Have you seen Window's 3.0? >> >> I wouldn't have commented about it if I had not used it a lot( a lot more than >> you might imagine). What's your point? >> >Windows 3.0 seems to be one of those rare software packages that is even >better than advertised. Many of it's really good features, like allowing the >use of expanded memory, aren't mentioned all that much in the ads. It had better used expanded memory, otherwise you couldn't run anything at all! Windows 3.0 eats lots of memory. An interesting point to note would be that expanded memory is a fix for the 640K space limitation imposed by MS-DOS. I wouldn't say that Window's use of expanded memory would be a "feature" that non-MS-DOS users would be interested in (like us). I've only played with Windows 3.0 a little bit (we haven't upgraded our software to 3.0...everything runs under 2.0 blech). Windows 3.0 looks nice, though my initial impression was that they didn't have the stringent human-interface consistancy that Apple has imposed. (yay! I can post news again!) -- Dave Seah | Omnidyne Systems-M | INET: seah@ee.rochester.edu | | "User-Friendly Killing Machines" | America Online: AFC DaveS | ^..^ +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeremy G. Mereness) (09/12/90)
Maybe I haven't had a chance to get used to it yet, but I breathed a sigh of relief when I tried Windows 3.0 on a '386 model 50. The Apple //gs has a better interface then a '386 Model 50 with Windows 3.0 Even at a pathetically slower processor speed, the GS rivals Windows in managing the desktop (redrawing backgrounds, cleaning up the screen, focus, even resolution!). Windows is fat and clumsy compared to the GS Finder. Windows is not very logical in its operation, difficult to follow, much too complex for those tiny IBM VGA screens, and for a screeming 386 machine, damn! but it's slow! Give me a GS over that thing any day. It's just too bad Apple (with the noted exception of the DTS group) doesn't support us. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ |Jeremy Mereness | Support | Ye Olde Disclaimer: | |jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu (internet) | Free | The above represent my| |a700jm7e@cmccvb (Vax... bitnet) | Software | opinions, alone. | |staff/student@Carnegie Mellon U. | | Ya Gotta Love It. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
ST102272@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Apple Defender) (09/27/90)
Is there any company making Apple II GS microprocessors that work at 15 MegaHertz (at least)?
rhyde@feller.ucr.edu (randy hyde) (09/28/90)
>>15 Mhz 65816
TWGS currently runs at 13.