jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeremy G. Mereness) (09/23/90)
Fellas, in establishing this here User's Group at CMUniversity, I have had more fun rebuilding a ][-plus than I thought possible. The thing was donated to us along with a CP/M boards and a Videx Ultraterm 80-column card. (Would someone like to mail me what stuff I can do with this? Like modifications to allow Appleworks to run?) I will keep writing and pushing for my little Apple //gs (with a new power supply, BTW) until whenever. But John Sculley's letter in Incider has done it for me. From the horse's mouth, the MAN equated the future of Apple // hardware to Macintoshes with emulation cards. With 4 years of no significant hardware releases/speed increases to back this up, I have had it. No more rumors, no more stories of whiz-kids with 20 MHz 65816's signing contracts with AE, nope. You people wanna real machine? Look at NeXT. The first NeXT cube was like the //gs... lots of potential in the hardware with the graphics and sound, but too damned slow and not configured well enough. But where Apple neglected, NeXT pushed. Check out the new NeXTstations. Bundled software, ready to use from the box, complete with monitor and hard-drive storage, 8 megs, 25 MHz 68040, Ethernet, Mach-UNIX, price $3995 w/o edutcational discount. And the damned thing will be able to switch flawlessly into the X environment and back again. Run all the famous Gnu software under X11R4. NeXT came through. Blows the Mac //fx out of the water; can't even get an empty box from apple at that price. 'Nuff said. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ |Jeremy Mereness | Support | Ye Olde Disclaimer: | |jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu (internet) | Free | The above represent my| |a700jm7e@cmccvb (Vax... bitnet) | Software | opinions, alone. | |staff/student@Carnegie Mellon U. | | Ya Gotta Love It. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------
asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) (09/26/90)
>You people wanna real machine? Look at NeXT. The first NeXT cube was >like the //gs... lots of potential in the hardware with the graphics >and sound, but too damned slow and not configured well enough. But >where Apple neglected, NeXT pushed. Check out the new NeXTstations. >Bundled software, ready to use from the box, complete with monitor and >hard-drive storage, 8 megs, 25 MHz 68040, Ethernet, Mach-UNIX, price $3995 w/o >edutcational discount. I just want to point out a few things to make sure people don't get misinformation. The basic NeXTstation (cheapest model) costs $4995. Educational discounts are running it in the $3200 range. I've heard that the cheapest discount is $2995 (depends on how many the university commits to ordering). >And the damned thing will be able to switch flawlessly into the X >environment and back again. Run all the famous Gnu software under >X11R4. NeXT came through. Blows the Mac //fx out of the water; can't >even get an empty box from apple at that price. 'Nuff said. This is absolutely wrong. No X stuff comes with the NeXT's, NONE. Gnu Emacs and the Gnu Debugger come with the NeXT. I believe gcc comes with the NeXT also, but not X. There ARE folks working on X ports to the NeXT, and there is already a version out there, but it runs on top of the NeXT environment, which will slow it down a bit. I'm not quite sure of the compatibility with X stuff. There is some guy working on a new version that will hopefully be more compatible (the old one was R3 I think). Ideally, the people working on the new one are trying to make the whole interface X, and not have to run X on top of NeXTStep. Just wanted to clear up a few facts. The NeXT IS hot, extremely! Makes Apple pricing look like they DON'T want to sell computers. -k
philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) (09/26/90)
In article <waz4PZ600awLNAxqcV@andrew.cmu.edu> jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeremy G. Mereness) writes: > >I will keep writing and pushing for my little Apple //gs (with a new >power supply, BTW) until whenever. But John Sculley's letter in >Incider has done it for me. From the horse's mouth, the MAN equated >the future of Apple // hardware to Macintoshes with emulation cards. >With 4 years of no significant hardware releases/speed increases to >back this up, I have had it. No more rumors, no more stories of >whiz-kids with 20 MHz 65816's signing contracts with AE, nope. I think you have misread that letter. The IIe emulation is a small attempt to help fend off IBM/Tandy computers with IIe emulators from gaining the upper hand in schools. Also, it is a step towards making the GS and the Macs operate better together. As I see it, the GS is quite a unique computer, and Apple knows it. The steps taken so far with the GS make sense in the context of the target market. I can only assume the DMA SCSI card was developed in order to make life more pleasant for people not in that market. I do REALLY think that Apple cares about its users and the GS users in particular. I can forsee more sharing of peripherals between the Mac and the GS, which is very good for all of us. In any case, I wouldn't be discouraged by this letter. Don't forget that there is probably not a reliable large volume supplier of fast 65816 cpu's yet. That does have some impact on just how far Apple can take the GS for now. I can only assume that were such a company to emerge, and it made economic sense( i.e. there was a market), Apple would not hesitate in coming out with a faster GS. I refuse to believe all the talk of conspiracies that one sees on the net. >You people wanna real machine? Look at NeXT. The first NeXT cube was >like the //gs... lots of potential in the hardware with the graphics >and sound, but too damned slow and not configured well enough. But >where Apple neglected, NeXT pushed. Check out the new NeXTstations. >Bundled software, ready to use from the box, complete with monitor and >hard-drive storage, 8 megs, 25 MHz 68040, Ethernet, Mach-UNIX, price $3995 w/o >edutcational discount. A Unix workstation( there is an unbelievable price war going on in that market) is something quite different from a personal computer. The initial cost may very well be appealing. I would suggest that you check out Unix software prices, prices of service contracts, etc...It is one thing to be on a network of Unix workstations and quite another to have a personal computer that you configure to your liking with $40 software, as opposed to $1000 software. Many years ago, I purchased a wonderful transporatble Unix computer called the Integral, from HP. It had Unix in ROM( it was SVID), a printer, 3.5megs of RAM, an electrolumenescent screen,etc...It made Byte. It was HOT...for 6 months. It never sold much. Why? Software. The cost of Unix software was just too much. This was a very easy point/click Unix workstation. It may have been ahead of its time, but it made me think that Unix would never be the OS for the masses, micros,etc...I would think carefully about your NeXT interest. A happy GS/Mac user is rarely a happy UNIX user, although the reverse is certainly the case for me. Philip McDunnough University of Toronto philip@utstat.toronto.edu [my opinions]
asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) (09/26/90)
In <1990Sep26.060442.2277@utstat.uucp> philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) writes: >>You people wanna real machine? Look at NeXT. The first NeXT cube was >>like the //gs... lots of potential in the hardware with the graphics >>and sound, but too damned slow and not configured well enough. But >>where Apple neglected, NeXT pushed. Check out the new NeXTstations. >>Bundled software, ready to use from the box, complete with monitor and >>hard-drive storage, 8 megs, 25 MHz 68040, Ethernet, Mach-UNIX, price $3995 w/o >>edutcational discount. >Unix software prices, prices of service contracts, etc...It is one thing >to be on a network of Unix workstations and quite another to have a >personal computer that you configure to your liking with $40 software, >as opposed to $1000 software. >think carefully about your NeXT interest. A happy GS/Mac user is rarely >a happy UNIX user, although the reverse is certainly the case for me. Yeah, think real hard, ya just might want one! The above price is wrong, as per another post I made. It's in reality $4995. But what is a NeXTstation? PC? Workstation? Micro/mini/mainframe? The machine itself is priced as a high-end PC, or a low low end workstation. Educational discounts put this machine in middle priced PC's, and places it at a price range to compete with almost all the Mac's, a chunk of PC's, and even against Amiga. As far as Unix is concerned, well I've seen quite a number of 2-486's that will run Unix, or version thereof, that cost significantly more than a NeXT, especially when you consider the cost of the bundled software. Yet it has the power of more pricey workstations (ie: Sun Sparc), AND still comes with all that software, which you don't get on most workstations, I don't imagine. As far as price for software is concerned, it is no worse than the Mac world. Lotus's Improv (new spreadsheet, that should be killer) is only $695, which you'd pay for in the IBM or Mac world. I happen to have a catalog of new NeXT products, done or in the works. While there isn't much that is lower than $100, almost all of it is productivity software, and runs at similar prices to comparable PC/Mac stuff. There is a lot that is super expensive also. Cobol (ACK!!!!) for instance is $2000. Who in their right mind would pay $2000 for Cobol? Barf gag! But there is other stuff that is quite reasonably priced. It may tend to be a bit more, but if the number of products starts to get rolling, then somebody might create a mail-order NeXT software business, and we are back down to lovely prices! -k
jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeremy G. Mereness) (09/27/90)
> Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.apple2: 26-Sep-90 Re: The Late Great > Apple // Kareth@mace.cc.purdue.ed (1793) > >X11R4. NeXT came through. Blows the Mac //fx out of the water; can't > >even get an empty box from apple at that price. 'Nuff said. > This is absolutely wrong. No X stuff comes with the NeXT's, NONE. Gnu > Emacs and the Gnu Debugger come with the NeXT. I believe gcc comes with > the NeXT also, but not X. There ARE folks working on X ports to the > NeXT, No, X will not come bundled with the NeXTStation, but industry sources say that the MIT X-consortium is very close to the NeXTStep to X (and back) environment that I described. Once it has been released, X would be trivial to obtain; it's free and FTP'able from the Consortium. Many companies were having difficulty considering the NeXT platform unless X was available in some form. NeXT wants to sell computers, and at as low a price as $4995, they must sell in volume. For these reasons, I believe X will be available for the NeXT by the time they ship in earnest next year. . I can send my references to you if you wish. Of course, I am trying to steam down over this thing as NeXTStations have yet to be produced in volume, but that is the fault of Motorola and their 68040's not shipping in quantity. If this gets fixed, NeXT may well be the machine to buy.... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ |Jeremy Mereness | Support | Ye Olde Disclaimer: | |jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu (internet) | Free | The above represent my| |a700jm7e@cmccvb (Vax... bitnet) | Software| opinions, alone. | |staff/student@Carnegie Mellon U.| | Ya Gotta Love It. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------
jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeremy G. Mereness) (09/27/90)
> Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.apple2: 26-Sep-90 Re: The Late Great > Apple // Philip McDunnough@utstat (3374) > I would think carefully about your NeXT interest. A happy GS/Mac user is > rarely > a happy UNIX user, although the reverse is certainly the case for me. > The initial cost may very well be appealing. I would suggest that you > check out > Unix software prices, prices of service contracts, etc... The NeXT machine comes bundled with Unix, Display Postscript, a Postscript Previewer, Print Manager software (Postscript again), a WYSIWYG editor WriteNow, Mathematica, Digital Librarian, and the complete Webster's Dictionary and a Thesaurus. Unlike most Unix machines, this thing is useful right out of the box. It also has Ethernet built in. It isn't the machine for everyone, admittedly, but for an educational environment or somewhere where one has access to Ethernet, it is ideal. Certainly, if you are going to spend $4000 on a high-end Mac, you should take a look at NeXT before you put your money down. NeXTstations represent a fine effort and use of resources. In comparison, Apple doesn't seem to have much drive. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ |Jeremy Mereness | Support | Ye Olde Disclaimer: | |jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu (internet) | Free | The above represent my| |a700jm7e@cmccvb (Vax... bitnet) | Software| opinions, alone. | |staff/student@Carnegie Mellon U.| | Ya Gotta Love It. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------
ART100@psuvm.psu.edu (Andy Tefft) (09/27/90)
In article <Ab0DlBi00Ud5I2N4gE@andrew.cmu.edu>, jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeremy G. Mereness) says: > > NeXTstations >represent a fine effort and use of resources. In comparison, Apple >doesn't seem to have much drive. Replace "NeXTstations" with "apple //s" and "apple" with "IBM," "Timex," etc... and push that date back 10-13 years and you'd still be saying something valid. Remember, in a technology that changes so rapidly, Apple is a rather aging company. IBM has always made more than just computers, and still makes computers other than personal computers, so it's withstood the test of time. Steve Jobs was called a "visionary" when Apple Computer, Inc. was founded and we're now hearing the same thing about NeXT. The Apple ][+ was an amazing machine for the times as were the //e, the //c, and the Macintosh (get out your old computer magazines if you don't believe me). I remember all the ado about "you get color graphics WITHOUT buying a graphics board!" "BASIC is built in!" "Wow, you can use a disk drive?" and "48K? WOW!" Now I don't mean to get on the Apple bashing bandwagon, but the //gs was really not as state-of-the-art as the previous Apple machines. What held it back? // compatibility. But as someone mentioned, a GS without // compatibility would be another Macintoy, maybe without the "mac users are computer-illiterate" stigma. Who needs that?
cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Charles William Swiger) (09/27/90)
>I would suggest that you check out Unix software >prices, prices of service contracts, etc...It is one >thing to be on a network of Unix workstations and >quite another to have a personal computer that you > >configure to your liking with $40 software, as opposed >to $1000 software. True, but you also have the advantage of being able to FTP and compile a VERY large collection of free software. Once a Unix machine has a bug-free C compiler and the appropriate header files, it can run hundreds of good programs for free. -- Charles William Swiger cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu
cyliao@hardy.u.washington.edu (Chun-Yao Liao) (10/01/90)
In article <1990Sep26.060442.2277@utstat.uucp> philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) writes: >>where Apple neglected, NeXT pushed. Check out the new NeXTstations. >>Bundled software, ready to use from the box, complete with monitor and >>hard-drive storage, 8 megs, 25 MHz 68040, Ethernet, Mach-UNIX, price $3995 w/o >>edutcational discount. > >A Unix workstation( there is an unbelievable price war going on in that >market) is something quite different from a personal computer. The initial >cost may very well be appealing. I would suggest that you check out >Unix software prices, prices of service contracts, etc...It is one thing >to be on a network of Unix workstations and quite another to have a >personal computer that you configure to your liking with $40 software, >as opposed to $1000 software. Don't mix a Unix workstation with a NeXT. Yes, NeXT uses Mach, a BSD 4.3 compatible while superior OS. But that's not the point. The NeXt was designed and intended to be used as the personal computer of the 90s. If you get one and use it, you'll not realize that it is a workstation, but a "powerful personal computer" The NeXT also comes with boundle softwares that has commercial value of over $2000. Some good examples are Mathmatica, Webster's ninth collegiate dictionary with illustrations, Oxford quotation, complete works of shakespeare, a demo version of FramMaker that really works(but do not save after oct 89) Most oter third party software companies offers student discount or site lincensing to individual users at price of $100 for a software package of $500-$2500. Of couse, there are sharewares too. ftp sites for hundred "quality" PD, sharewares are available. BTW, several useful "X" applications are FREEWARE (same with lots software for UNIX), and can be run under Xwindow system for NeXT. I havent bought a single software yet sinc'e almost all i need are boundled with NeXT > >Many years ago, I purchased a wonderful transporatble Unix computer >called the Integral, from HP. It had Unix in ROM( it was SVID), a printer, >3.5megs of RAM, an electrolumenescent screen,etc...It made Byte. It was >HOT...for 6 months. It never sold much. Why? Software. The cost of Unix >software was just too much. This was a very easy point/click Unix >workstation. It may have been ahead of its time, but it made me think >that Unix would never be the OS for the masses, micros,etc...I would >think carefully about your NeXT interest. A happy GS/Mac user is rarely >a happy UNIX user, although the reverse is certainly the case for me. I am extremely happy with my NeXT, it's SO easy to use and it comes with everything I need and everything I don't need. Believe or not you don't need any knoledge about Unix to use a NeXT. I was holding all my $$ for the ROM04, but since Apple is not doing a s*t to the // line, I moved up to something that is somewhat "like" my old pal, Apple //c. Really, Apple // and NeXT are the only computer I feel very comfortable with. mail me if you want to flame, mail me if you wanna know more about NeXT, mail me if you like to say Hi, or just drop an empty mail if you like (but not recommended). cyliao@wam.umd.edu o NeXT : I put main frame power on two chips. @epsl.umd.edu o people: We put main flame power on two guys. @bagend.eng.umd.edu o :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: xxxxx@xxxxx.xxx.xxx (reserved) o RC + Apple // + Classic Music + NeXT = cyliao