rkh@mtune.att.com (Robert Halloran) (09/21/90)
The Sculley letter that is being touted as a re-assurance to the
Apple II community strikes me as anything but. The only thing I get
from the note is the coming need to pop for a Mac, THEN pop for an
Apple IIe (*NOT* GS) emulation board. Color? Mac II? plus....
If Apple were to announce a RISC box in October, then say that existing
Mac owners could get a board for it to run Mac Plus programs (NO color,
etc), how would the Mac community feel? The school market that Apple is
pushing the II's to isn't going to throw out all their existing machines
and programs to replace them all with Macs; can't Apple see that? The
home market doesn't need a 'wicked-fast' '040 box with 24-bit color;
the IIf proposal strikes me as a viable, affordable, MARKETABLE system.
Hoping for REAL reassurance in October..... (hoping for Duet for Xmas? :-))
Bob Halloran
=========================================================================
Internet: rkh@mtune.dptg.att.com UUCP: att!mtune!rkh
Disclaimer: If you think AT&T would have ME as a spokesman, you're crazed.
Quote: "How do you know when a politician is lying? His lips move."
- M-m-max Headroom
"Read my lips - no new taxes..." - G. Bush, 1988
=========================================================================gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) (09/23/90)
In article <794@mtune.ATT.COM> rkh@mtune.att.com (Robert Halloran) writes: >If Apple were to announce a RISC box in October, then say that existing >Mac owners could get a board for it to run Mac Plus programs (NO color, >etc), how would the Mac community feel? Note that this is in fact a plausible scenario, although not in the October 1990 time frame. The 68xxx architecture is nearly maxed out at this stage. Note that Sun Microsystems Inc. shifted their future from 68xxx to SPARC (a RISC architecture) some time ago, similarly for Silicon Graphics Inc. (68xxx -> MIPS), and even Digital Equipment Corp. is moving in the RISC direction for workstations. I detect a trend here..
rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) (09/24/90)
The 68xxx architecture is not maxed out. Witness the 68040. Three years ago RISC proponents would not have believed that the 68xxx or 80x86 families would be capable of 15-20 MIPS. RISC's performance boost over CISC is dubious at best. As for RISC's inherent scalability, technology will probably guarantee that RISC does not pull much ahead of CISC. The next generation of chips (68050, 80586, 32764, etc.) will probably pull ahead, or at least match the MIPS performance of SPARC, R3000, etc. Personally, I'd rather have 30 CISC MIPS than 30 RISC MIPS. The trend you see was based on design decisions from 2-3 years ago. I think the current crop of CISC processors are beginning to show that those design decisions were not the best. DOS windows on the SUN equipment actually runs faster on the 68xxx boxes than on the SPARC. Using RISC to emulate a 65c816 probably wouldn't be as good as using a 68040. Perhaps Apple dragging their feet on a RISC system isn't too bad. By the time they would actually ship something, the 68040/68050 boxes would be just as fast. And emulating a GS on those machines would probably be even better (not to mention, you could run Mac software). *** Randy Hyde O-)
yk4@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Yong Su Kim) (09/24/90)
Like with most processors, comparing mere statistics such as megahertz and mips are not an accurate indication of the speed of the computer. Sure, some CISC chips are faster than the RISC chips in certain circumstances. However, on other tasks such as numerical computations, the RISC chips are superior to the current CISC designs. I don't think that CISC designs are able to compete with RISC designs at the moment. It will take some significant advances in CISC designs and significant failures in RISC designs for CISC to replace RISC as the processor of workstations. _____________________________________________________________________________ |Internet: yk4@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu |||||||||||Yong Su Kim|||||||||||| |Bitnet : yk4@cunixc |||||The Korean from Hong Kong|||| |UUCP : uunet!rutgers!columbia!cunixc!yk4 |||||||...Apple IIGS user...|||||| |____________________________________________||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
rkh@mtune.ATT.COM (Robert Halloran) (09/24/90)
In article <13924@smoke.BRL.MIL> gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) writes: >In article <794@mtune.ATT.COM> rkh@mtune.att.com (Robert Halloran) writes: >>If Apple were to announce a RISC box in October, then say that existing >>Mac owners could get a board for it to run Mac Plus programs (NO color, >>etc), how would the Mac community feel? > >Note that this is in fact a plausible scenario, although not in the >October 1990 time frame. The 68xxx architecture is nearly maxed out >at this stage. Note that Sun Microsystems Inc. shifted their future >from 68xxx to SPARC (a RISC architecture) some time ago, similarly >for Silicon Graphics Inc. (68xxx -> MIPS), and even Digital >Equipment Corp. is moving in the RISC direction for workstations. >I detect a trend here.. Doug, My gibe wasn't at the possibility of a RISC Mac, but at the idea of Apple announcing such a box, offering the existing Mac users an emulation of only the minimum 68K-based model and cutting them off from making use of any of the applications targeted for the Mac II line, and then disowning ALL the existing 68K-based models. This is the current perception of the A2 community with regard to the GS; to read the letter from InCider, Sculley's idea of supporting us seems to be to have us all buy Macs and then ante up further for an emulator of the (now) low-end model (low-end since the IIc+ runs faster). The market that Apple has recently targeted with the ][, K-12 schools, are NOT likely to buy into this; they're doing well to cough up for ][c's. With my wife a teacher, I have been given some idea of their outlook on the matter. Something like the Duet, which would let them run Mac software ON THEIR EXISTING ]['S, would sell a d*mn sight better since the perception would be that they wouldn't have to throw out their existing hardware, no matter that the end cost may be the same. I agree that the rumors lean towards a 'RISC Mac' sometime soon. I expect, though, that when that time comes, the Mac community will not be cut off from their high-end 68K applications. We in the A2 community, especially those of us that have supported the GS, appear to be getting kissed off. I would *LOVE* to be proven wrong next month, but I'm not holding my breath.... Bob Halloran ========================================================================= Internet: rkh@mtune.dptg.att.com UUCP: att!mtune!rkh Disclaimer: If you think AT&T would have ME as a spokesman, you're crazed. Quote: "How do you know when a politician is lying? His lips move." - M-m-max Headroom "Read my lips - no new taxes..." - G. Bush, 1988 =========================================================================
russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) (09/25/90)
In article <13924@smoke.BRL.MIL> gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) writes: >In article <794@mtune.ATT.COM> rkh@mtune.att.com (Robert Halloran) writes: >>If Apple were to announce a RISC box in October, then say that existing >>Mac owners could get a board for it to run Mac Plus programs (NO color, >>etc), how would the Mac community feel? > >Note that this is in fact a plausible scenario, although not in the >October 1990 time frame. The 68xxx architecture is nearly maxed out >at this stage. Note that Sun Microsystems Inc. shifted their future >from 68xxx to SPARC (a RISC architecture) some time ago, similarly >for Silicon Graphics Inc. (68xxx -> MIPS), and even Digital >Equipment Corp. is moving in the RISC direction for workstations. >I detect a trend here.. The CISC vs RISC battle has gone on for some time, and I think that RISC has reached its peak. Note that one recent chip seems to have broken this trend.... the 68040 (well, maybe the Intel '486, but I try not to think about Intel...) -- Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.
cse0507@desire.wright.edu (10/03/90)
In article <799@mtune.ATT.COM>, rkh@mtune.ATT.COM (Robert Halloran) writes: >>>If Apple were to announce a RISC box in October, then say that existing >>>Mac owners could get a board for it to run Mac Plus programs (NO color, >>>etc), how would the Mac community feel? >> >>Note that this is in fact a plausible scenario, although not in the >>October 1990 time frame. The 68xxx architecture is nearly maxed out >>at this stage. Note that Sun Microsystems Inc. shifted their future >>from 68xxx to SPARC (a RISC architecture) some time ago, similarly >>for Silicon Graphics Inc. (68xxx -> MIPS), and even Digital >>Equipment Corp. is moving in the RISC direction for workstations. >>I detect a trend here.. > > Doug, > > My gibe wasn't at the possibility of a RISC Mac, but at the > idea of Apple announcing such a box, offering the existing Mac users > an emulation of only the minimum 68K-based model and cutting them off > from making use of any of the applications targeted for the Mac II line, > and then disowning ALL the existing 68K-based models. > I agree that the rumors lean towards a 'RISC Mac' sometime soon. > I expect, though, that when that time comes, the Mac community will not > be cut off from their high-end 68K applications. We in the A2 community, > especially those of us that have supported the GS, appear to be getting > kissed off. I don't see much of a reason to move to a RISC implementation of a 68K when 50 Mhz versions are already available in full implementation. Maybe this is what Apple will use in the machine replacing the fx.