q4kx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (Joel Sumner) (09/30/90)
Somone mentioned that the new NeXTStation is not really a home computer. While that may be true, let's look at something... My Apple IIgs... RGB Monitor (12") 3.5" Drive 5.25" Drive 256K (Rom 0 since upgraded) Mouse, Keyboard 2 serial ports, Drive port, Appletalk, joystick port $2,000 2 Megs of Memory (AI Juice +) $200 Ehman Hard drive (30 Meg) $450 Apple Rev 'C' SCSI Card $100 (Forget modem & printer for now)-------- GRAND TOTAL ---------> $2,750 A New NeXT Station.... (from my available literature) 17" 2 bit greyscale monitor 68040 running 25Mhz (15 MIPS) 105Meg HD 2.88 Meg Floppy Drive 8Megs RAM Ethernet SCSI II interface Software Galore - Webster's Dictionary - Oxford Quotes - Shakespeare - All NeXT Manuals on disk - GNU C - GNU Emacs - Mathematica - Objective C - a 68K Assembler - WriteNow - Lotus Improv (All in all, about 150 megs worth of stuff) Grand Total ----------------------> $4,995 Educational Discount -------------> $3,250 (depending on university) Makes me sick that I bought my IIgs. No, I take it back, I am glad I bought my IIgs. I am sick that Apple can hyperinflate prices and then in turn, not support their machines. Someone once said, "If my next computer isn't an Apple II, it won't be an Apple." I wholeheartedly agree. I may not be able to make up the difference between selling my IIgs and buying a NeXT now. I can guarantee 100% that when I leave Cornell 3 years from now, I will no longer have my Apple IIgs. And you can be just as positive that my new computer will not have the word 'Apple' or 'Mac' anywhere on it. (Even if the fabled ROM 04 were introduced tomorrow) Apple will no longer get any of my money. They have promised too much and given too little. I have even written (twice) to John Sculley himself expressing my grievances. One of those letters went out a few days ago. Anyone who wants a copy, let me know.... -- Joel Sumner GENIE:JOEL.SUMNER These opinions are q4kx@cornella.ccs.cornell.edu q4kx@cornella warranted for 90 days or q4kx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu q4kx@crnlvax5 60,000 miles. Whichever .................................................... comes first. Never test for an error condition that you can't handle.
legler@MASIG2.OCEAN.FSU.EDU (David M. Legler) (10/03/90)
Joel Sumner writes:
Somone mentioned that the new NeXTStation is not really a home computer.
While that may be true, let's look at something...
My Apple IIgs...
RGB Monitor (12")
3.5" Drive
5.25" Drive
256K (Rom 0 since upgraded)
Mouse, Keyboard
2 serial ports, Drive port,
Appletalk, joystick port $2,000
2 Megs of Memory (AI Juice +) $200
Ehman Hard drive (30 Meg) $450
Apple Rev 'C' SCSI Card $100
(Forget modem & printer for now)--------
GRAND TOTAL ---------> $2,750
A New NeXT Station.... (from my available literature)
(description of this deleted)
Grand Total ----------------------> $4,995
Educational Discount -------------> $3,250 (depending on university)
Makes me sick that I bought my IIgs. No, I take it back, I am glad I
bought my IIgs. I am sick that Apple can hyperinflate prices and
then in turn, not support their machines.
================================
If you are comparing prices, be sure to compare apples to oranges. The
GS prices above seem to be close to retail at least for the computer
(not add-on enhancements). So comparing retail $2750 to retail $4995
the GS isn't so bad. (and the NeXT DOES NOT have color!)
While it is true that the NeXT seems a better deal, remember that not
everyone needs all the power of a NeXT. And I suspect that prices for NeXT
software will far exceed anything in the Apple II world (markets will dictate
prices across different platforms).
If the NeXT satisfies your needs and you can get it at a decent price, then
by all means buy it. (If you get it be sure to get the laserprinter too, at
a price of about $1500, it is far away a great add-on deal).
BTW I use a IIe, Mac, NeXT, and Silicon Graphics - all are perfectly suited
for their various purposes which is why I use them. I have no complaints
about any of them.
--
Mr. David M. Legler ||(904)644-1159 or 644-4581
Mesoscale Air-Sea Interaction ||Bitnet legler%masig1.ocean.fsu.edu@cunyvm
Group ||SPAN 7480::"legler@masig1.ocean.fsu.edu"
MS B-174 Love-012 ||Arpa legler@masig1.ocean.fsu.edu(128.186.3.1)
Florida State University ||
Tallahassee, FL 32306-3041 || "An Apple II a day, keeps the PC blues away"
q4kx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (Joel Sumner) (10/04/90)
In article <9010031225.AA19854@masig2.ocean.fsu.edu>, legler@MASIG2.OCEAN.FSU.EDU (David M. Legler) writes: > Joel Sumner writes: > >> Somone mentioned that the new NeXTStation is not really a home computer. >> While that may be true, let's look at something... > >> My Apple IIgs... [my system] >> GRAND TOTAL ---------> $2,750 >> >> A New NeXT Station.... (from my available literature) >> (description of this deleted) >> >> Grand Total ----------------------> $4,995 >> Educational Discount -------------> $3,250 (depending on university) > > > If you are comparing prices, be sure to compare apples to oranges. The > GS prices above seem to be close to retail at least for the computer > (not add-on enhancements). So comparing retail $2750 to retail $4995 > the GS isn't so bad. (and the NeXT DOES NOT have color!) > I would be happy to put the educational discount for the IIgs in perspective. THERE IS NONE! At least, I haven't seen any discounts in 4 years. I did get my IIgs on a small educational discount (about the same amount that the IIgs sells for now) when I got it 4 years ago. This was from a University. And that was 'covert' because I never saw much literature on it. I haven't seen any educational discount since. By the law of relativity, any reference frame is equally good for observing an event. In my reference frame, a NeXT costs $3300 (at Cornell) and an Apple IIgs costs $2750 or so. Yes, the NeXT does not have color, but it does have a 3x larger hard drive, 4x more memory, a two page monitor, and a processing speed that is [probably] 20 times faster. I think the NeXT still comes out on top even if you do use the retail price of $4995. > While it is true that the NeXT seems a better deal, remember that not > everyone needs all the power of a NeXT. And I suspect that prices for NeXT > software will far exceed anything in the Apple II world (markets will dictate > prices across different platforms). No, not everyone needs the power of a NeXT. I really don't need that much power right now either. My IIgs suits me fine. But Apple Computer Corp has seen fit to decide that no one really needs the 'paltry' power of an Apple IIgs. Therefore, I am getting something else that will be supported by its manufacturer. It would be stupid for me to but a Mac. It doesn't have the powerful line-interface that I like in my IIgs (I only use the FINDER for file copying. I use ECP-16 and Davex for everything else. I can't stand Icons. It does make programs easier to use but just try to do 'quick and dirty' stuff. It is a nightmare...) Thought the SHR environment has its merits. Don't get me wrong. Not to mention the fact that the Mac is made by Apple. As I said, I will no longer give them any of my money. The next choice is IBM Clones. You can forget them too. I have worked with MS-DOS long enough to know that I don't like them either. So what does that leave me? Amiga? I dunno. I personally like the NeXT machine because it is SO MUCH LIKE MY IIGS! It is easy to program (through a toolbox of sorts), it has a command line interface if you want to use it ['uncompress *.Z' now wasn't that hard? Imagine what you would have to do on a Mac to accomplish the same feat?] , and it is [relatively] cheap. > > If the NeXT satisfies your needs and you can get it at a decent price, then > by all means buy it. (If you get it be sure to get the laserprinter too, at > a price of about $1500, it is far away a great add-on deal). (I think the educational price for a NeXT laser printer is $1295) > > BTW I use a IIe, Mac, NeXT, and Silicon Graphics - all are perfectly suited > for their various purposes which is why I use them. I have no complaints > about any of them. Absolutely. (I just wish I could afford to keep my IIgs and still get a NeXT. College students don't get that benfit.) > > Mr. David M. Legler ||(904)644-1159 or 644-4581 > Mesoscale Air-Sea Interaction ||Bitnet legler%masig1.ocean.fsu.edu@cunyvm > Group ||SPAN 7480::"legler@masig1.ocean.fsu.edu" > MS B-174 Love-012 ||Arpa legler@masig1.ocean.fsu.edu(128.186.3.1) > Florida State University || > Tallahassee, FL 32306-3041 || "An Apple II a day, keeps the PC blues away" > -- Joel Sumner GENIE:JOEL.SUMNER These opinions are q4kx@cornella.ccs.cornell.edu q4kx@cornella warranted for 90 days or q4kx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu q4kx@crnlvax5 60,000 miles. Whichever .................................................... comes first. Never test for an error condition that you can't handle.
rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) (10/04/90)
>> It doesn't have a powerful line interface that I like in my GS.
Have you never used MPW? It is much better than most CLI's I've seen.
This is not an arguement for not buying a mac.
Of course, having to spend $5,000 (or more) and relearn everything over
again, now that is a more appropriate arguement for not wanting to switch
to a Mac. Sooner or later, however, you will have to switch to something
else. Apple is not going to support the II line forever (remember Apple II
Forever? Ha!) Someday your GS will die and you will not be able to get it
fixed. And, perhaps, you'll have bought the last old used GS around. Then
if you still want to use a computer you will have to switch to something
else. Of course, if you wait this long, you'll still be using a 0.5 VUPS
(Vax MIPS) computer while the rest of us are tooling along at 100 VUPS.
I would love to see a 100 MIPS 65xxx chip stuck in an Apple labelled
product. Given the animosity between Apple and WDC, I see very little
likelihood that this will ever happen.
Concerning Next Prices:
At UCR:
NextStation $2995.
Next Laser Printer $1100 + some change.
This is not a terribly usable combination, however. The 105mb hard disk
is too small. Next's software suite does not fit on it. To upgrade to the
340 mb hard disk will cost you an additional $1,800. The 340 mb drive is
really fast (8 mb/sec data transfer rate, 15ms ave seek). About twice as
fast as the 105 mb hd. Except for poverty stricken individuals who can
barely afford $3,000, most people would be better served spending $4,800
for the machine.
*** Randy Hyde O-)gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) (10/05/90)
In article <1990Oct3.215139.274@vax5.cit.cornell.edu> q4kx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (Joel Sumner) writes: >... The next choice is IBM Clones. You can forget them too. I have >worked with MS-DOS long enough to know that I don't like them either. A lot of people are quite happily using some form of UNIX on their PC clones. Sun's 386i was popular for a while; it supported multiple DOS windows within a SunOS (UNIX) environment. I don't know what's considered the nicest PC UNIX setup right now, but it bears investigating. The hardware sure is cheap.