unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (10/05/90)
In article <9010050235.AA08340@cwns11.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa404@cleveland.Freenet.Edu writes: >Category 24, Topic 5 >Message 92 Mon Jul 30, 1990 >UNCLE-DOS [ Tom W ] at 16:59 EDT > > Duet's screen output will appear on the IIgs screen, so the horizontal >resolution will be more than a standard Mac--enough for 80 columns!--but >the vertical resolution will be about half that of the standard Mac. >This shouldn't be a problem since the Mac's screen size is definable as >part of the operating system and their are tools available to create >"virtual screens" that are bigger than the monitor and to scroll around >them. This is my reservation about the card that most likely will make me not buy the card. Of course I will give it a thorough lookover once it actually comes out... [Note: Even though I've said I don't want to "upgrade" to a Mac and wouldn't buy a Mac system by itself, that doesn't mean I wouldn't buy a Mac card for my GS.] I am not saying I'd buy this to play games either, but games show a big problem with using the GS resolution. Take Dark Castle for example (the game that I'm probably most personally familiar with on the Mac)... You don't play it in a window.. (yes, I guess it has a Grafport window, etc.. I may be using that term incorrectly since I've not done Toolbox programming yet and have just skimmed parts of the toolbox books to get used to the toolbox before I start programming with it)... So since you're not playing in a window, it's assuming it has all 525 (or whatever) lines of the Mac display.. So how would this be played on the GS with a Duet card? It seems to me that it WOULDN'T.. unless the Duet card will vertically compress stuff (ick!) through some algorithm.. Now programs that use scrollable windows with the arrows and thumbs should work perfectly because it's just like making a Finder window half it's normal size... The scroll bars and thumb adjust themselves... But on non-window programs, it seems to me they WILL NOT RUN. If I'm totally wrong, please correct me and tell me WHY I'm wrong. I just hope they add video output to the card so it outputs at LEAST the standard original 128K Mac resolution.. but with the GS's color capabilities so somehow the GS could still be involved in the video somehow... [Boy, as a prospective engineer, I'm sure using a lot of "somehow"s!] Even -IF- you would need a new monitor, I feel it's better than using non-square-pixels to emulate a Mac. That's one of my biggest raves about the Mac... square pixels.. -- / Apple II(GS) Forever! unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu \ \"If cartoons were meant for adults, they'd be on in prime time."-Lisa Simpson/
tbandit@athena.mit.edu (Carlos E Reategui) (10/07/90)
In article <7527@darkstar.ucsc.edu> unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) writes: > I am not saying I'd buy this to play games either, but games >show a big problem with using the GS resolution. > > Take Dark Castle for example (the game that I'm probably most >personally familiar with on the Mac)... You don't play it in a window.. >(yes, I guess it has a Grafport window, etc.. I may be using that term >incorrectly since I've not done Toolbox programming yet and have just >skimmed parts of the toolbox books to get used to the toolbox before I >start programming with it)... > > So since you're not playing in a window, it's assuming it has >all 525 (or whatever) lines of the Mac display.. So how would this >be played on the GS with a Duet card? Well, the Mac's display is 512x384 for the 9" screen, not 525 vertical lines, so there shouldn't be a problem there. Additionally, Dark Castle *does* work in a window. The window is the exact size of the 9" screen, but if you run Dark Castle on a larger monitor (say the 640x480 Mac II screen), the playing field will be in a window, centered on the screen. It's safe to say that programs that hog the whole screen are considered "non-well- behaved" as far as the Mac is concerned. What is the level of emulation? Mac+/SE a la AMAX/Stacy, or MacII/SE30 with Color QD support and stuff like that? How extensive will be the support for new features (like Virtual Memory in System 7, or 32-bit QuickDraw, for example)? I really think that this product does have a lot of potential, and I'd really like to see it succeed. The technical hurdles are significant, however, and the compatibility problems are bound to be hairy in certain areas (I'd hate to be working on the Sound Manager, for example), especially in the areas where there are features of the Mac OS which do not readily translate to GSOS (Notification Manager?). I guess I sound fairly skeptical, but I'd love to see it happen. We'll see. Ivan Cavero Belaunde Design Engineer, GCC Technologies captkidd@ATHENA.MIT.EDU
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (10/08/90)
In article <1990Oct6.172736.4816@athena.mit.edu> tbandit@athena.mit.edu (Carlos E Reategui) writes: >Well, the Mac's display is 512x384 for the 9" screen, not 525 vertical lines, >so there shouldn't be a problem there. Additionally, Dark Castle *does* >work in a window. The window is the exact size of the 9" screen, but if >you run Dark Castle on a larger monitor (say the 640x480 Mac II screen), >the playing field will be in a window, centered on the screen. It's safe >to say that programs that hog the whole screen are considered "non-well- >behaved" as far as the Mac is concerned. Ok, I was wrong about the actual numbers, but I don't see how your explanation would solve the problem... Even with 384 vertical pixels, it's almost twice as big as the GS's 200 vertical pixels. So Dark Castle, which doesn't put itself in a scrollable window, wouldn't run, correct? I'm inferring that you're including Dark Castle in the "non-well-behaved" category. Unfortunately, it would seem that the games I can think of would all fall into that non-well-behaved category.. And the fact that we're not using square pixels, it wouldn't be too fun to use a Mac specific drawing/CAD package. And using a Mac word processor would be basically like using GS specific word processors I presume. So I honestly don't see where the market for this thing is. And, in my opinion, ALL OF THE PROBLEMS come from the "video problem". Maybe that's because I think one of the few advantages of the Mac is square pixels. If people can give me constructive replies to my comments, I'd appreciate it. Maybe my views of this Duet card could even be altered so I'd buy one... (I was pretty much on the "if it's as good as it seems, I'll certainly buy one" list until I found out it uses regular GS graphics) By the way, as an aside, Matt Deatherage has been unsubscribed to comp.sys.apple2 for a while now and has no plans to resubscribe. It's because of all the whining and complaining that goes on around here. Hey, I'm the first to admit I'm one of the whiners and complainers, I just thought some people might want to know what happened to him. AND, as he said when I asked him if I could tell everyone this, DO NOT FILL HIS mailbox with technical questions. He does -NOT- want to be mailed tech questions! -- / Apple II(GS) Forever! unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu \ \"If cartoons were meant for adults, they'd be on in prime time."-Lisa Simpson/
jb10320@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Desdinova) (10/08/90)
In article <7584@darkstar.ucsc.edu> unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) writes: > [ miscellany moaning/groaning about Duet using GS graphics removed ] A friend and I are in the preliminary design stages of a graphics board for the GS, Amiga, Mac, and IBM. I'm not at liberty to say anything except: 1024x768 256 out of 16M 640x480 16M colors each pixel plus various interlaced modes And it will be VERY fast (a separate graphics primitive processor). I'm not giving a date, mainly because we're not sure what we're getting into. As soon as I know something, I'll let you (and CirTech) know. -- Jawaid Bazyar | Blondes in big black cars look better wearing Senior/Computer Engineering | their dark sunglasses at night. (unk. wierdo) jb10320@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu | The gin, the gin, glows in the Dark! | (B O'Cult) Apple II Users Unite! Storm the New Product Announcement and Demand Justice!
aa404@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Chris Roberts) (10/09/90)
> Ok, I was wrong about the actual numbers, but I don't see how >your explanation would solve the problem... > Even with 384 vertical pixels, it's almost twice as big as >the GS's 200 vertical pixels. So Dark Castle, which doesn't put itself >in a scrollable window, wouldn't run, correct? I'm inferring that you're >including Dark Castle in the "non-well-behaved" category. The way I understood it, was not that it depended on Scrollable windows, but that it had a special set of kepresses or something to actually "Scroll" the viewable section of the screen itself. I think it sounds like a pain in the but myself, but I don't think it's going to stop it from functioning. I agree, it would be a lot easier, if they just put it out with some Mac Video Roms and a Mac Video Port. > So I honestly don't see where the market for this thing is. And, in >my opinion, ALL OF THE PROBLEMS come from the "video problem". Maybe that's >because I think one of the few advantages of the Mac is square pixels. I must admit, I often wonder why they didn't have true Square pixels on the GS. It would solve many problems. -- Apple II forever! Chris Roberts Channel 4 WCFT-TV Apple II SIG Sysop Cleveland Free-net ID's (aa404) / (xx003) (Apple II SIG) Internet ID: aa404@cleveland.freenet.edu
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) (10/09/90)
In article <9010081947.AA13443@cwns11.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa404@cleveland.Freenet.Edu writes: >I must admit, I often wonder why they didn't have true Square pixels on the >GS. It would solve many problems. Obviously, because acceptable display quality in color at 640x400 or so (which is what would produce approximately "square pixels", as you call them), would have cost far more than Apple thought the IIGS customers would be willing to pay. Actually, "squareness" (1:1 aspect ratio) is not particularly important for most purposes, the main exception being displaying a raster image made for that resolution on some other system.