rhyde@hubbell.ucr.edu (randy hyde) (10/03/90)
Why is everyone around here expecting Apple to support the Apple II line? Is it Apple's responsibility to support a product which obviously makes them very little money? As for new software, I hear a lot of complaining out there, why don't *YOU* write some of this software. Apple has supported the machine. They've given us the video overlay card and the SCSI adapter card. How many of you bought these cards? Why should Apple spend lots of money promoting` a machine which doesn't make them much money. If you want Apple to support the Apple II, go buy a bunch of machines! If they start selling, they will start supporting them.
asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) (10/03/90)
In <9017@ucrmath.ucr.edu> rhyde@hubbell.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes: >Why is everyone around here expecting Apple to support the >Apple II line? Is it Apple's responsibility to support a >product which obviously makes them very little money? Uh, figures sir, figures. And get them from Apple. >why don't *YOU* write some of this software. Apple has >supported the machine. They've given us the video overlay Yeah right <note sarcasm hopefully> >card and the SCSI adapter card. How many of you bought >these cards? Why should Apple spend lots of money promoting` >a machine which doesn't make them much money. If you want >Apple to support the Apple II, go buy a bunch of machines! >If they start selling, they will start supporting them. That's a bunch of hogwash. The Apple II line was the bread and butter of the company. EVERYTHING that is Apple now is due to that one 'obsolete' machine. And don't give me any shit about Mac making it the company it is, the Apple II put the Mac on the map! If it hadn't been for the for the II, the Mac would only exist in some Xerox research labs. And we HAVE been supporting, and buying Apple II's since they came out, in droves! Apple USED to support the II's, now they don't worth squat. Oh yeah, a video card that is perfectly useless for the average everday folks. A SCSI adapter that shoulda been there LONG ago. Gosh, just makes me want to jump up and down. People aren't buying Apple II's BECAUSE Apple doesn't support it, not because we aren't buying them. And then Apple can turn around and saying "people aren't buying them, let's not support em", and on and on, until they can quit making them. And why should developers program for the II's? If Apple isn't going to support them, why should they? The only way we are going to get Apple to support them, is by a card adapter for the Mac, unfortunately. There would have to be a HUGE surge in purchasing Apple's, and people are just NOT going to buy machines from a company that doesn't support them, offers extremely obsolete hardware and prices it exobirantly, and whose software base isn't the hotest. Of course, I would LOVE to have Apple make me eat my words, but I really don't think I'm in any danger of that, do you? -k
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (10/03/90)
In article <9017@ucrmath.ucr.edu> rhyde@hubbell.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes:
.Why is everyone around here expecting Apple to support the
.Apple II line? Is it Apple's responsibility to support a
.product which obviously makes them very little money?
.As for new software, I hear a lot of complaining out there,
.why don't *YOU* write some of this software. Apple has
.supported the machine. They've given us the video overlay
.card and the SCSI adapter card. How many of you bought
.these cards? Why should Apple spend lots of money promoting`
.a machine which doesn't make them much money. If you want
.Apple to support the Apple II, go buy a bunch of machines!
.If they start selling, they will start supporting them.
I have bought an Apple DMA SCSI card... I have no use for a
Video Overlay Card and doubt I ever will... I played with one for a
while and am VERY GLAD that Apple made it.. kinda fights against the
'Amiga is the video-editing' idea...
I am planning on writing software for the machine. I currently
am in debt (for a car I got)... I want a hard drive before I start
programming for the GS.. otherwise it would be a pain in the butt with
disk swapping, etc...
I already have lots of ideas for neat NDAs and litle utilities..
I think a few are truly useful, a few others are just little neato
programs..
And do you consider a BILLION dollars a year "very little money"?
I believe the Apple II still makes Apple that much money a year.
So I -have- bought the (personally useful to me) things you
mentioned, I -am- going to write software.. Apple DOES make a lot of money
off the II...
I think Apple should support the II more.. I believe I've
pointed out reasons why..
--
/ Apple II(GS) Forever! unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu \
\"If cartoons were meant for adults, they'd be on in prime time."-Lisa Simpson/rkh@mtune.ATT.COM (Robert Halloran) (10/03/90)
In article <9017@ucrmath.ucr.edu> rhyde@hubbell.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes: >.Why is everyone around here expecting Apple to support the >.Apple II line? Is it Apple's responsibility to support a >.product which obviously makes them very little money? >.As for new software, I hear a lot of complaining out there, >.why don't *YOU* write some of this software. Apple has >.supported the machine. They've given us the video overlay >.card and the SCSI adapter card. How many of you bought >.these cards? Why should Apple spend lots of money promoting` >.a machine which doesn't make them much money. If you want >.Apple to support the Apple II, go buy a bunch of machines! >.If they start selling, they will start supporting them. Last time I heard any numbers thrown around, the A2 line was responsible for ***ONE BILLION*** dollars income a year to Apple. Unless you're the gummint, that's pretty damn big bucks. For a machine they haven't been doing much development for, that can't be hurting the bottom line any, any more than it did when it funded Jobs' Mac project. And Steve Jobs is the reason my next machine won't be a NeXT machine.... I'm hoping and praying that the announcements on the 19th will NOT include the ]['s retirement notice, but I'm not holding my breath. Bob Halloran ========================================================================= Internet: rkh@mtune.dptg.att.com UUCP: att!mtune!rkh Disclaimer: If you think AT&T would have ME as a spokesman, you're crazed. Quote: "How do you know when a politician is lying? His lips move." - M-m-max Headroom "Read my lips - no new taxes..." - G. Bush, 1988 =========================================================================
rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) (10/03/90)
At one time the Apple II made Apple a lot of money. Apple supported the machine. Now, the Macintosh is making them more money-- for whatever reason including they decided to "kill" off the Apple II. So What! Apple does "owe" Apple II users anything. They owe their stockholders a lot more. They need to maximize their profits. They make much more profits from the Macintosh than they do from the Apple II line. Who besides some strapped for cash school districts are buying lots of Apple IIs these days? A big complaint around here is that Apple does not advertise the machine. Advertisements are for those who've not yet bought the machines. How is advertising the machine going to improve *YOUR* life any? Perhaps a few more people will buy the thing. What does that do for you? Are you so insecure in your decision to purchase this machine that you feel you need several others to buy one as well, if for no other reason than to make you feel like you didn't make a mistake? Please don't hand me the line about more machines=more software. Software developers today are strapped for talent and cash. They are trying to decide whether to put their resources into Mac, Windows, or OS/2 development. Apple will *NEVER* sell enough GS machines to be able to attract high-quality applications for the GS. Perhaps a few more games would be written. But Apple has no interests in repeating Atari's mistakes in this arena (they do not want to be perceived as a game company, that would hurt Mac sales, which today *IS* their bread and butter). My final question is WHY does Apple have to support the machine. Other than a few ads, I don't see too much in these complaints. Apple, in the past five years, has supported the machine much better than they had the ten years (okay, eight) prior. Finder, GS/OS, Appleshare, etc., these are right up there with DOS, UCSD Pascal, and ProDOS. The SCSI adapter and video overlay cards are much more interesting than any other hardware device Apple has built for the II other than the language card. *WE ARE GETTING SUPPORT FROM APPLE!* Your problem is that you look at what's available for the PC or the Mac and you say "I want that on my GS too!" Sorry, that ain't ever gonna happen. If you want those neat things on a PC or a Mac, go buy one of those machines. If you want neat software or hardware on the GS, write or build it yourself. If you honestly think there is a market for such things, start your own company and get rich selling the stuff. The paucity of support for the GS is not because no one has tried, it's because no one can make money doing it (even game manufacturers would have problems with the GS, witness all the piracy posts here). I'm sorry for going off on a tirade like this, but when I first bought my Apple II back in 1978 people weren't crying to Apple to support the machine, if we wanted something we wrote the software or designed the hardware ourselves. I wish people around here would start doing the same. One sentiment that I whole-heartedly agree with is this: Current technology has *NOT* pushed the GS to its limits yet. If you're willing to write in 65816 assembly, you can do many wonderful things with the machine that others have yet to achieve. Just don't expect Apple to do this work for you. Two final comments: I own a Lobo Max-80 which I still use every once in a great while. It does the job I expect of it (the job I bought it for). I'm not crying to Lobo to "support" this machine (they're out of business, so I couldn't even if I wanted to). Likewise, my GS does the job I bought it for. If I want something else on the GS, I'll write it myself rather than cry about it. (2) Don't ask *ME* to support *YOU*. I've already paid my dues in this dept. When you write as much software for the Apple II line as I have (probably around 400,000 lines of code over the past 14 years) then you can get on my case about not supporting the Apple II. What have *YOU* done to support the Apple recently besides complain? *** Randy Hyde O-) Flame off.
ghost@bucsf.bu.edu (Jay Adelson) (10/04/90)
I think the problem here lies in a sort of catch-22: The software manufacturers, whether it be game people, utility people, etc, they look at the Apple IIGS now and say, "Gee, with all this bad press I've heard, from Apple users about Apple not supporting the GS, I'd have reason to believe if we released this software it\ might not sell very long. That is, if Apple discontinues the GS or if Apple stops supporting it." If the software and hardware manufacturers believed that there were lots of GS users out there, and that there will be more, then they would produce more. It's that simple. There is only one solution: Make the people believe we're out here waiting for their stuff and that we will buy it. Some problems in this idea: 1) Software pirates. In the Apple community especially, there is probably the largest (or former largest now with Amiga pirates) underground pirate network in existance. If (and I'm willing to bet this) over 50% of the GS owners out there STEAL all their wares, then what sort of support do you expect? I used to be a software pirate years ago, and I know how easy it is, so it's understandable considering the price of software out there. But, IF YOU WANT SUPPORT, you better cut it out! 2) Shareware. Shareware is a blessing in disguise. Granted, it PROVES that there are qualified programmers out there. It distributes great software. But these authors MUST be paid for their work! If they recieve no cash for their efforts, they might as well move to the amiga or IBM, each with more responsive shareware worlds. 3) Software orientation. The GS market is educational for the most part. But WE the general owners of the GS need software which doesn't just sound nice and look nice. It has to DO something that is powerful enough to attract more experienced computer users...what I mean is, in this day and age, more people then before are computer literate, and these people aren't going to settle for FTA demos and games. They will want applications like AppleWorks GS and GraphicWriter III for example. A good program, for example, might be a NDA which downloads a file in the background. (Yes I know someone wrote one of these for GS+)... ...MOST IMPORTANT is that the bad press stops. If we the GS users of the world complain, MAYBE apple hears us. But DEFINITELY the software/hardware manufacturers hear us. What are we complaining about is important, but start being more positive publicly about the GS and I'm sure the attitudes of users AS WELL AS developers will change. And that, my friends, is the opinion of an Apple II user who's been hacking (in a figure-of speech sense) around with one of these machines in one form or another for years. Since I was 11, in fact. Any computer which can attract an 11 year old MUST have virtue. And back then, if you recall (that was in 1981) games and programs weren't as pretty..but the reason they sold better and seemed to be more interesting is not because I was 11 years old. It is because they functioned better. They're developers were interested and *enthusiastic* about the Apple II. It showed. So let's make the developers out there *enthusiastic.* We did it before. We can do it again. -- """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" [ Jay Adelson ] [ T.G.C. ] [ ghost@bucsf.bu.edu ] [ 1039 Commonwealth Ave. #18 ] [ J.ADELSON1 (GEnie) ] [ Boston, MA. 02215-1008 ]
MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (10/04/90)
On Tue, 2 Oct 90 21:01:43 GMT randy hyde said: >Why is everyone around here expecting Apple to support the >Apple II line? Is it Apple's responsibility to support a >product which obviously makes them very little money? Most of us think that the reason it makes them very little money is because they don't support it. We feel that, now, that they have a REALLY powerful and VERY expensive machine (Mac) that they are just going to abandon the II line and we are not very happy about that, considering the amount of money we've invested in our machines (nearly $10,000 in my case). >As for new software, I hear alot of complaining out there >why don't *YOU* write some of this software. Apple has Some of us are, but not all of us are programmers. Anyway, the complaint about the lack is software is that Apples 'lack of support' for the computer has all but forced most of the software companies to pull out of supporting the GS. >supported the machine. They've given us the video overlay >card and the SCSI adapter card. How many of you bought >these cards? Why should Apple spend lots of money promoting` I did... The SCSI card. The VOC is priced way too high though. two new products for 3 or 4 machines (was the //c+ ever dropped?) in four years is not a whole lot of support. >a machine which doesn't make them much money. If you want If they supported it, it probably would. >Apple to support the Apple II, go buy a bunch of machines! Get real! >If they start selling, they will start supporting them. If they start supporting them, they will start selling. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | | This is your brain... | BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm | | This is your brain on drugs... | pro-line: | | This is your brain on whole wheat.| mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com | |____________________________________|_______________________________|
philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) (10/04/90)
In article <9034@ucrmath.ucr.edu> rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes: >At one time the Apple II made Apple a lot of money. Apple supported the >machine. Now, the Macintosh is making them more money-- for whatever reason >including they decided to "kill" off the Apple II. So What! Did Apple officially decide to "kill" the GS? I certainly haven't heard or received any such notice. I would suggest you quit speculating and start quoting official announcements. As for your statement re " owing II users nothing", I would give that more thought than you seem to have. I have used Mac's from the beginning and am a recent GS user. I got the GS for a certain purpose. It turned out to be much nicer than I every imagined. One reason for getting a GS as opposed to say an ST or a PC etc...had to do with brand name loyalty. Apple has been good to me in the past, and I consider that it is trying to continue that with my GS. For this reason, I have hesitated before ever getting a computer from another company, even though there are some interesting ones out there. [lot's of stuff deleted which I don't understand] Philip McDunnough Professor of Statistics University of Toronto-> philip@utstat.toronto.edu [my opinions]
rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) (10/04/90)
>>> Did Apple officially decide to "kill" the machine...
NO! Far from it! There are those inside Apple who would love to kill it,
there are those who would love to push it above the mac. I was just stating
that for whatever reason, including the possiblity that they might have
decided to kill it, the mac is outselling the GS.rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) (10/04/90)
>>> a machine which doesn't make them much money. > If they supported it, it probably would. I disagree. It's too late for that now. If they doubled the speed and cut the price in half, people would still buy Macs. There are many, many more interesting applications for Macs than for the GS. If I were a typical use and I had a choice of paying $1000 for a GS (including a floppy and a monitor) or $700 for a Mac Classic, I'd pick the Mac Classic every time. Maybe *YOU* wouldn't, but you aren't a naive beginner either. The only reason people will buy a GS is to solve a specific problem which they can only solve on the GS. Alas, there aren't too many solutions which only the GS provides. To those of you who want decent games. Besides writing your own, I can make one big suggestion. Buy a copy of ORCA/C (the only "anywhere near" decent "C" compiler for the GS) and then call ByteWorks and bitch. Tell them to improve the libraries so they match the routines available for MS- DOS. Tell them to add new features. Tell them to support C++. Byteworks will only listen to you if you are a registered user. So make sure you have a legitimate copy. How will this improve the game situation? Easy, most game manufacturers have gone soft and they write their software in "C for the PC, Ataris, and Amigas. They won't write for the GS because ORCA/C is so bad (and MPW C is much worse). If someone would produce a passable "C" compiler for the GS, a lot more low-end software would get ported to the GS. Don't try to talk 'em into writing their software in assembly. That won't work, I've already tried it. *** Randy Hyde O-)
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (10/04/90)
In article <9010040214.AA00152@apple.com> MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET writes: >On Tue, 2 Oct 90 21:01:43 GMT randy hyde said: >>If they start selling, they will start supporting them. > >If they start supporting them, they will start selling. Hey, this is sounding to start like "Field of Dreams" (of which us Apple // users have a lot of).. If you build it, he will come. If Apple builds it (i.e. either supports the GS as it is now AND/OR makes it even more competitive & supports it), he (meaning buyers/software developers.. not meant to be sexist, just generic) will come. Yeah, that's the ticket! The whole baseball movie was an allegory (probably actually some other form of fiction whose name I can't remember that I always confuse with allegory) for the Apple Computer/ Apple II situation! heh -- / Apple II(GS) Forever! unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu \ \"If cartoons were meant for adults, they'd be on in prime time."-Lisa Simpson/
jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeremy G. Mereness) (10/05/90)
> Did Apple officially decide to "kill" the GS? I certainly haven't heard or > received any such notice. I would suggest you quit speculating and start > quoting official announcements. Most of us are afraid that the introduction of the low-cost Macs into a market that seems so perfect for the GS is an indication that future growth of the //gs has been abandoned. It may be supported, tech notes, spare parts, etc. but no growth. > I have used Mac's from the beginning and am > a recent GS user. I got the GS for a certain purpose. It turned out to be > much nicer than I every imagined. Ahhh, I wish more Apple execs saw you write this!! >One reason for getting a GS as opposed > to say an ST or a PC etc...had to do with brand name loyalty. Apple has > been good to me in the past, and I consider that it is trying to continue > that with my GS. For this reason, I have hesitated before ever getting a > computer from another company True, true. Apple is a much more supportive and visible company than its competitors, and for this reason I have been afraid to commit to Commodore; the Amiga is a great thing, but where is the manufacturer? Any dealers? Anything? But Apple has always made me feel like an outsider after the //gs wass no longer new. Dealers didn't know what an Apple // was. This is when I got suspicious. Since then, it's just gotten worse, Apple trying to stifle interest in the machine with Mac propaganda. > [lot's of stuff deleted which I don't understand] > > Philip McDunnough > Professor of Statistics > University of Toronto-> philip@utstat.toronto.edu > [my opinions] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ |Jeremy Mereness | Support | Ye Olde Disclaimer: | |jm7e+@andrew.cmu.edu (internet) | Free | The above represent my| |a700jm7e@cmccvb (Vax... bitnet) | Software| opinions, alone. | |staff/student@Carnegie Mellon U.| | Ya Gotta Love It. | -----------------------------------------------------------------------
MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (10/10/90)
>How is advertising the machine going to improve *YOUR* life any? I can't believe you don't know the answer to this. By advertising the II, it, first of all, shows that Apple WANTS to support II and that we know that there will be support. By supporting the II, more software companies will start writing more software for it, more hardware campanies will start mfg. for it, more people will buy it, bringing more revenue to Apple for the II, encouraging them to support it even more and produce bigger and better II's and hopefully get the II up to par with the competition. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | | This is your brain... | BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm | | This is your brain on drugs... | pro-line: | | This is your brain on whole wheat.| mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com | |____________________________________|_______________________________|