fadden@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Andy McFadden) (10/08/90)
In article <4849@crash.cts.com> billy@pro-sol.cts.com (Billy Long) writes: >It would be *great* to have an 8-bit II group, a GS group, and then another >group for Mac/II wars, non-support complaints, etc. I'm getting tired of >wading through all these negative messages. The standard arguments against separate //[ec+] and //gs groups are: 1. There isn't a whole lot of traffic for older //s. 2. Most of the traffic there is applies equally to the //gs. There is a group for Mac vs II wars, alt.religion.computers. The only suggestion with merit is a comp.sys.apple2.tech group, which failed the vote last year. -- fadden@cory.berkeley.edu (Andy McFadden) ..!ucbvax!cory!fadden
ART100@psuvm.psu.edu (Andy Tefft) (10/08/90)
In article <28552@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>, fadden@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Andy McFadden) says: > >In article <4849@crash.cts.com> billy@pro-sol.cts.com (Billy Long) writes: >The standard arguments against separate //[ec+] and //gs groups are: >1. There isn't a whole lot of traffic for older //s. >2. Most of the traffic there is applies equally to the //gs. And here are standard and nonstandard refutals (that really is a word): 1. I bet traffic would pick up. I would certainly post more in a non-gs group. What happens here is any non-gs questions eventually become gs questions and then complaints about apple not supporting the // as macintoshes and other computers are brought into the discussion. 2. People with GS's can read both groups. It's not that much trouble. The overlap between the gs and non-gs only goes one way, i.e. people with GS's have much more interest in non-gs stuff than people with non-gs's have in gs stuff. A kill file for articles having "GS" in the subject is virtually useless as this group is now. At one time I did not read any article with a subject that sounded like it belonged to the GS (not hard to differentiate). However as I read other articles I was finding quoted information from some of these articles that made me wish I'd read the original article. Maybe we should just create an alt group (since there probably aren't enough non-gs owners to vote for a non-gs group, although usefulness isn't measured by number of people alone, which is the net.gods philosophy). Actually, probably the best idea is for the GS users to branch out with a gs-specific group, leaving comp.sys.apple2 and comp.sys.apple2gs. There are more people to vote that way!
mdavis@pro-sol.cts.com (Morgan Davis) (10/09/90)
Recently, a suggestion was made to create a comp.sys.apple.iigs group.
If you can believe it, the same suggestion was made in 1983-84 about creating
an "Info-Apple-IIe" group since readers perceived some great rift between
Apple II+ and Apple IIe users. You know, those new IIe owners really stirred
everything up, what with their lowercase keyboards, 80 column displays, and
128K RAM machines! This suggestion was made by jealous II+ users, no less.
Yet, today, there is quite a disproportionate number of II+ to IIe/IIc/IIGS
subscribers here. There aren't many II+ -only users left. Most who didn't
ride the wave of technology or weren't interested in it simply unsubscribed.
And the group lived on to discuss today's Apple II technology. Healthy.
I also read comp.sys.mac.misc (the catch-all groups for all miscellaneous
discussion about *all* Macintosh models). I never see this "we need to
create a comp.sys.mac.plus group and a comp.sys.mac.iifx group" stuff.
Yet, those machines are just as diverse or more as the Apple II+ and IIGS.
Why is it that they can maintain peaceful harmony there?
(They did, however, have the foresight to create a technical group called
"comp.sys.mac.programmer" after which we may want to follow. I thought it
an excellent idea since it pulled the developer community away from
those not interested in software development.)
A lack of cohesiveness and cooperation is an indicator of many other problems
with this group. I have observed that many members of this group are:
o Very insecure about the computer they own. They find themselves
unable to keep up with new advancements (mentally or financially).
So they mire themselves where they stand, defend their
machine as the end-all-be-all, and proclaim anything else as
"the enemy".
o So bored that they must invent ways to bitch and whine to help
pass the time. They ought to spend as must time doing something
constructive with their machine. Or, is the Apple II series only
capable as a terminal from which to expouse the kind of lunacy
we've had to endure recently? Yes, that's a dare.
o No longer interested in posting useful information.
o Scaring off those who have legitimate questions for fear that
they will be twisted into a Mac vs. Apple II debates and may
never get answered.
o Not the same folks who participated in interesting, useful,
helpful, and lucid discussions five years ago.
o Sending good people away, and making it difficult for the
remaining few to want to stick around. I think this is
the second time that Matt Deatherage has bowed out to let
the unenlightened heathens carry on their wrath.
Personally, I don't see an end in sight until a lot of Apple II users
realize that being rigid in their loyalty to the Apple II series is no
longer healthy, nor admirable. Today, it is just plain stupid. Imagine
hordes of C-64 users clutching their plastic boxes to their chests,
joysticks dangling, and lamenting the unjustice that has befallen them.
That's what many of you look like in phosphor. It is getting old.
It is time to open eyes, close mouth, and just listen for a while.
--Morgan Davis
UUCP: crash!pro-sol!mdavis AOL, BIX: mdavis
ARPA: crash!pro-sol!mdavis@nosc.mil GEnie: m.davis42
INET: mdavis@pro-sol.cts.com ProLine: mdavis@pro-soldelton@pro-carolina.cts.com (Don Elton) (10/09/90)
In-Reply-To: message from fadden@cory.Berkeley.EDU The last time my site was taking the comp.sys.apple2 feed I discontinued the feed when the content turned into a flame war for apple bashers. At that time I established an appletech feed from my pro-carolina proline site which most proline sites now subscribe to. On this feed, the flames that seem to have again dominated comp.sys.apple are not tolerated. It's looking like time to drop comp.sys.apple again as it's getting to be next to useless as a forum for technical apple 2 exchanges. We can support routing appletech to off-proline sites if there's interest. Send your requests to me at delton@pro-carolina.cts.com. UUCP: [ ucsd nosc ] !crash!pro-carolina!delton MCI: delton ARPA: crash!pro-carolina!delton@nosc.mil CIS: 72010,37 INET: delton@pro-carolina.cts.com AOL: delton pro-carolina [300-2400 baud] 803-776-3936, login: register
philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) (10/09/90)
In article <4872@crash.cts.com> mdavis@pro-sol.cts.com (Morgan Davis) writes: [history of II, various ramblings, reads comp.sys.mac.* deleted] >Personally, I don't see an end in sight until a lot of Apple II users >realize that being rigid in their loyalty to the Apple II series is no >longer healthy, nor admirable. Today, it is just plain stupid. Imagine >hordes of C-64 users clutching their plastic boxes to their chests, This is an absurd statement, as well as being totally insensitive to many AppleII() users who have enjoyed their computers for a long time( I am a very new GS user who comes from the Mac world and uses Unix systems at work). >It is time to open eyes, close mouth, and just listen for a while. What is it we are supposed to be listening for? I am happy with the GS, bored with my Macs( although they are nice but very limited computers). One thing that often happens to users who gravitate to the Mac world is that they become intoxicated as to its perceived power. There is a whole cult built up around it. But I find it rather annoying to be lectured to by commercial vendors in the Mac/GS world. I'm the customer, and in the way our world works it is the customer who should have their concerns addressed and not the other way around. One thing I won't do is pander to the whims of the commercial vendors whether they are Apple or The Morgan Davis group. Philip McDunnough Professor of Statistics University of Toronto-> philip@utstat.toronto.edu [my opinions]
herwin@pro-novapple.cts.com (Harry Erwin) (10/12/90)
In-Reply-To: message from fadden@cory.Berkeley.EDU My sons can't find any IIGS software in the local stores anymore, so the concept of a combined //ecIIgs users group makes sense--because all that is supported any longer is the //ec side... Harry Erwin -->Remember, no good deed goes unpunished... proline:pro-novapple!herwin uucp: crash!pro-novapple!herwin arpa: crash!pro-novapple!herwin@nosc.mil Telenet: herwin/trw Internet: herwin@pro-novapple.cts.com alternate Internet: /PN=Harry.Erwin/O=TRW/ADMD=Telemail/C=US/@Sprint.com
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) (10/14/90)
In article <16062.netnews.info-apple@pro-novapple> herwin@pro-novapple.cts.com (Harry Erwin) writes: >My sons can't find any IIGS software in the local stores anymore, so >the concept of a combined //ecIIgs users group makes sense--because >all that is supported any longer is the //ec side... It seems to vary substantially with the store and with the location. Local Electronics Boutique stores have drastically reduced their Apple II software stock and tend not to have a separate IIGS section, nor stock IIGS versions when 8-bit versions are available, nor have very up-to-date stock. Local Babbage's tend to have a larger 8-bit Apple II section than IIGS section, and also don't have very up-to-date IIGS stock. WaldenSoft tends to have similar-sized 8-bit and IIGS sections, with a sparse selection of recent releases. Egghead had a IIGS section as large as the 8-bit Apple II section, with all the new games that I was looking for in stock. Thus, despite the fairly poor showing the Apple II family is making in local software stores, I don't see that the IIGS is generally considered passe'. In fact, in the last month or so there have been more new games released for the IIGS than I recall seeing over the previous past year. The main argument against splitting the lists is that it doesn't work. What advocates of splitting really want is for every message to be one that they have an interest in. Since IIGS users also have an interest in 8-bit Apple topics, they are likely to continue to discuss those in any new "IIGS-only" newsgroup, so even 8-bit Apple II owners would still want to scan the IIGS newsgroup, and vice-versa. All that splitting would accomplish would be to increase the administrative hassles.
adamr@pro-novapple.cts.com (Adam Robey) (10/21/90)
In-Reply-To: message from herwin@pro-novapple.cts.com They can't find any Apple IIGS software in the stores? What are you talking about...I see it in the stores and in mail order? They are still developing Apple IIGS software. The Apple IIGS has NOT died. Apple II(GS)! -AMR _____________________________________________________________________________ | PROLINE: pro-novapple!adamr | UUCP: crash!pro-novapple!adamr | | ARPA: crash!pro-novapple!adamr@nosc.mil | INET: adamr@pro-novapple.cts.com | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (10/22/90)
On Sat, 20 Oct 90 21:45:28 EDT Adam Robey said: >In-Reply-To: message from herwin@pro-novapple.cts.com > >They can't find any Apple IIGS software in the stores? What are you talking >about...I see it in the stores and in mail order? They are still developing >Apple IIGS software. The Apple IIGS has NOT died. I don't know where you live, but here in Chattanooga, it's extremely difficult to find ANYTHING for the GS anymore. Even Mac software is starting to get scarce around here, but it's definitely not 'couse they're not producing Mac Software, but the GS problem IS because not very much GS software is being produced. > >Apple II(GS)! > >-AMR > _____________________________________________________________________________ >| PROLINE: pro-novapple!adamr | UUCP: crash!pro-novapple!adamr | >| ARPA: crash!pro-novapple!adamr@nosc.mil | INET: adamr@pro-novapple.cts.com | >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ____________________________________________________________________ | | | | This is your brain... | BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm | | This is your brain on drugs... | pro-line: | | This is your brain on whole wheat.| mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com | |____________________________________|_______________________________|