CMDSEN@primeg.weeg.uiowa.edu (10/17/90)
Now that Macintosh Computer Company, Inc. is planning on releasing a new
Apple IIe :-) (the MacLC with emulator card for guessed $199) will they be
releasing some new system software for the II's?
To play the devil's advocate: I understand the emulator board will have a
disk port for a 5.25" drive, but how will I plug in my Transwarp or ZipChip,
or memory expansion card, or Mockingboard, or Vulcan or Sider hard drives,
or audio animator, or Apple Parallel card for my Apple DMP printer, my SSD
ram card, my super-duper does everything but wash dishes home controller/
monitor ;-) ?
If it doesn't have slots, is it a Apple IIe? Shouldn't they call it an Apple
//c emulator? Maybe a quarter //c emulator (256K = 1/4 of 1 Meg memory
expansion Apple USED to offer), or a half //c (2.x MHz about 1/2 of 4 Mhz
speed of IIc+)
What are the chances Video Technology can be pressured into making a quality
Laser computer capable of showing what a II can do very well. If Macintosh
Computer Co., Inc. won't develop the II, maybe Laser can. Anyone ever thought
of comp.sys.laser or info-laser. :-) Sure would keep the Macintosh users
away ;-)
--Steve Nelson, University of Iowa
(Internet: cmdsen@primeg.weeg.uiowa.edu)
(Bitnet: cmdsenpg@uiamvs.bitnet)dcw@lcs.mit.edu (David C. Whitney) (10/18/90)
In article <9010171437.AA06284@apple.com> CMDSEN@primeg.weeg.uiowa.edu writes: >To play the devil's advocate: I understand the emulator board will have a >disk port for a 5.25" drive, but how will I plug in my Transwarp or ZipChip, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Good question, but the thing already has 2 speeds (hi and lo, what the MHz are, who knows...) >or memory expansion card, or Mockingboard, or Vulcan or Sider hard drives, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ No need as you can steal ram from the Mac. Just drop more SIMMS on the board. Mockingboard is what? Speech synth? Someone will think of something. Hard drives? Use the SCSI on the Mac. >or audio animator, or Apple Parallel card for my Apple DMP printer, my SSD ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ stereo card? good question. parallel printer? Drop the $90 for a serial <-> parallel converter and use the internal port. >ram card, my super-duper does everything but wash dishes home controller/ ^^^^^^^^ drop SIMMs on the mac. >monitor ;-) ? > >If it doesn't have slots, is it a Apple IIe? Shouldn't they call it an Apple >//c emulator? Maybe a quarter //c emulator (256K = 1/4 of 1 Meg memory ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yes. On the other hand, it's much more flexible than the //c. "Adding" memory is simply a matter of asking for more from the Mac; "slot" assignment is very flexible; etc. > > --Steve Nelson, University of Iowa > (Internet: cmdsen@primeg.weeg.uiowa.edu) > (Bitnet: cmdsenpg@uiamvs.bitnet) Obviously, this isn't the solution for all of us. On the other hand, it *does* make a good first time computer as it costs about as much to bring this thing up to speed as it does a GS. It's a mac, which is what Apple wants everyone to have in the future (like it or not - I'm not arguing about that). It runs older // stuff and it's pretty flexible (although not very expandible). Adding RAM is easy, and the more daring can probably swap drive mechanisms to bring it up to 80mb. Most folks don't *need* a whopping powerful computer (read: lots of speed, math hardware, virtual mem, etc), and I think this is a good machine to fill that market. -- Dave Whitney | I wrote Z-Link and BinSCII. Send me bug Computer Science MIT 1990 | reports. I need a job. Send me an offer. dcw@goldilocks.lcs.mit.edu | My opinions, you hear? MINE! dcw@athena.mit.edu | "Isn't this where..."
alfter@uns-helios.nevada.edu (SCOTT ALFTER) (10/18/90)
In article <9010171437.AA06284@apple.com> CMDSEN@primeg.weeg.uiowa.edu writes: >Computer Co., Inc. won't develop the II, maybe Laser can. Anyone ever thought >of comp.sys.laser or info-laser. :-) Sure would keep the Macintosh users >away ;-) Yeah--but we'd end up with MeSsy-DOS users invading that space instead. :-( Laser makes a full line of IBM clones--XTs up to 386s--not just Apple clones. Which would be worse: having Mac users barging in or MeSsy-DOS users? You gotta give the MeSsy-DOS folks the credit that they can use a computer without playing with pictures, anyway. :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Alfter _/_ / v \ Apple II: Internet: alfter@uns-helios.nevada.edu ( ( the power to be your best! GEnie: S.ALFTER \_^_/
philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) (10/18/90)
In article <9010171437.AA06284@apple.com> CMDSEN@primeg.weeg.uiowa.edu writes: >Now that Macintosh Computer Company, Inc. is planning on releasing a new >Apple IIe :-) (the MacLC with emulator card for guessed $199) will they be >releasing some new system software for the II's? I assume the IIe board is there to provide a transistion to those people who have IIe software but also want to use a Mac. This can only be good for the educational community and even 6502 based Apple's. It will mean more software for the II,etc...I don't understand why some people regard this as a bad thing. These "bridgeboards" have been around in the PC world for quite a while. If people mainly use IIe's that's what they will get. Better to have this hybrid than to have people junking their II software and moving to another platform. I do hope the educational community will make the best out of the LC. Apple should have done this 2 years ago. I hope it isn't too late for them. The funny thing which I find puzzling is the fact that there has not, to the best of my knowledge, been a price cut for the GS. It would be a shame to waste the GS's considerable assets needlessly. I can only hope that Apple will cut the price of the GS, perhaps in half, improve it slightly( speed, graphics) and work on a "MacGS". That is a GS on a board in the LC. I guess time will tell. If they don't drop the price, then I would have to infer that they don't want people to buy it. That would be a great shame as GS users would be left with nowhere to go. This has never been Apple's way so... Philip McDunnough University of Toronto philip@utstat.toronto.edu [my opinions]
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (10/18/90)
In article <1990Oct18.000603.18849@utstat.uucp> philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) writes: >I assume the IIe board is there to provide a transistion to those people >who have IIe software but also want to use a Mac. This can only be good >for the educational community and even 6502 based Apple's. It will mean >more software for the II,etc...I don't understand why some people regard >this as a bad thing. These "bridgeboards" have been around in the PC What do you mean it will mean more software for the II? If you have the //e card in a Mac, it's ludicrous to write // specific software ("for" the Mac w/IIe card since //es may not exist much longer)... It's crazy because as long as you're already on the Mac you can use the WIMP interface, etc.. I think it's AWFUL that the //e card TAKES CONTROL of the machine! If it ran in a window in MultiFinder that would be actually pretty neat.. but it totally takes control.. By the way, I personally feel the IIe should have been discontinued (BUT NOT REMOVE SUPPORT FOR, as in new ProDOS versions etc) a while ago... The Mega II in the GS IS LITERALLY a //e on a chip, right??? So what more is needed? Only RAM? If I'm right, then it seems to me that there could be a //e laptop SMALLER than the Poquet PC!! [Well I'm for making it 'reasonably' sized for simple ease of use] Or rather a //c laptop.. because I think laptop/portable was the intention of the //c. With the //c+ currently being 4 x (right?) faster than a IIe, the IIe is pointless.. they run the same software but the //c+ is faster, has a built in 800K drive, etc.. and I believe they're comparably priced. If I'm even in the "same ballpark (with the truth)" about my presumptions about the //c+ vs the //e, then it seems the //e is redundant. A GS laptop would be even better but I honestly believe an 8 bit Apple // laptop could/would sell like hotcakes! -- / Apple II(GS) Forever! unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu \ \"If cartoons were meant for adults, they'd be on in prime time."-Lisa Simpson/
gtolar@nuchat.UUCP (Glynne Tolar) (10/19/90)
Anybody have any idea how to detect this card in software? I'd like to keep anything I write from operating on that card.
alfter@uns-helios.nevada.edu (SCOTT ALFTER) (10/19/90)
In article <7952@darkstar.ucsc.edu> unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) writes: >[stuff deleted] > If I'm even in the "same ballpark (with the truth)" about my >presumptions about the //c+ vs the //e, then it seems the //e is redundant. Not so fast, there! Can you expand a IIc Plus? How much RAM can you stick in it? A RamWorks III is supposed to be able to take up to 16 megs, plus RGB and a 65816. How fast can you make a IIc Plus go? A Zip Chip probably won't work in it, and I know a TransWarp III won't work. How about hard disks? Chinook's SmartPort drives are interesting devices from an engineering standpoint, but they don't stand a chance against SCSI hard disks. What about other types of add-ons, such as music cards or A/D-D/A cards? Five years ago I picked a IIe over a IIc for one simple reason: the IIe can be easily and cheaply upgraded and expanded. The same, IMHO, holds true for any comparison between a IIe and IIc Plus. Given a choice between those two computers, I would still buy a IIe. (Add a IIGS to those choices, though, and I would probably decide differently. :-) ) You might also consider how the other half lives: the Mac didn't sell too well until Apple made one (two, actually: the SE and Mac II) that had an expansion capability. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Alfter _/_ / v \ Apple II: Internet: alfter@uns-helios.nevada.edu ( ( the power to be your best! GEnie: S.ALFTER \_^_/
MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (10/19/90)
On Wed, 17 Oct 90 18:39:01 GMT David C. Whitney said: >In article <9010171437.AA06284@apple.com> CMDSEN@primeg.weeg.uiowa.edu writes: >>To play the devil's advocate: I understand the emulator board will have a >>disk port for a 5.25" drive, but how will I plug in my Transwarp or ZipChip, > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Good question, but the thing already has 2 speeds (hi and lo, what the >MHz are, who knows...) 1.02Mhz and 2.04 (or was it 2.4?) > >>or memory expansion card, or Mockingboard, or Vulcan or Sider hard drives, > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ No need as you can steal ram from the Mac. >Just drop more SIMMS on the board. Mockingboard is what? Speech >synth? Someone will think of something. Hard drives? Use the SCSI on >the Mac. The Apple //e card has 128k on board. You can access ONLY 256k of the Mac's RAM, so no matter how much the Mac has, the amount you use from the // is limited. I think the point of his mentioning all those cards is that he (we) spent alot of money on them, so what are we supposed to do with them? >Dave Whitney | I wrote Z-Link and BinSCII. Send me bug >Computer Science MIT 1990 | reports. I need a job. Send me an offer. >dcw@goldilocks.lcs.mit.edu | My opinions, you hear? MINE! >dcw@athena.mit.edu | "Isn't this where..." ____________________________________________________________________ | | | | This is your brain... | BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm | | This is your brain on drugs... | pro-line: | | This is your brain on whole wheat.| mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com | |____________________________________|_______________________________|
bchurch@oucsace.cs.OHIOU.EDU (Bob Church) (10/19/90)
In article <29443@nuchat.UUCP> gtolar@nuchat.UUCP (Glynne Tolar) writes: >Anybody have any idea how to detect this card in software? I'd like to keep anything I write from operating on that card. You might check with Applied Engineering. They are experts at this sort of "sabotage" :-). On the other hand you might take into consideration the people who take their // software to work to show the others how nice and inexpensive it is only to be embarrassed when it won't boot on the LC.
dcw@lcs.mit.edu (David C. Whitney) (10/19/90)
In article <9010190335.AA29375@apple.com> MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET writes: >On Wed, 17 Oct 90 18:39:01 GMT David C. Whitney said: >>>or memory expansion card, or Mockingboard, or Vulcan or Sider hard drives, >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ No need as you can steal ram from the Mac. >>Just drop more SIMMS on the board. Mockingboard is what? Speech >>synth? Someone will think of something. Hard drives? Use the SCSI on >>the Mac. > >The Apple //e card has 128k on board. You can access ONLY 256k of the Mac's >RAM, so no matter how much the Mac has, the amount you use from the // is >limited. I don't know where you get your info, but I get mine from seeing the thing work. The engineer said "watch this:" and upped the amount of RAM the // could use to 1MB. That's all there is to it. >I think the point of his mentioning all those cards is that he (we) spent >alot of money on them, so what are we supposed to do with them? A good question. I plan on buying the LC/][ card combo some time next year. This does NOT mean I'll be dumping my GS. Having both (well, all 3) machines makes for an interesting development envirnonment for me. If one plans on *switching* computer systems, then one must consider the big investment. One usually dumps what he has and starts fresh. I mean, what would he do with his ram cards if he bought an IBM? I was merely pointing out that the various capabilities provided by hardware that people own either exist on-board or can be had somewhat cheaply on the new LC. > ____________________________________________________________________ >| | | >| This is your brain... | BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm | >| This is your brain on drugs... | pro-line: | >| This is your brain on whole wheat.| mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com | >|____________________________________|_______________________________| -- Dave Whitney | I wrote Z-Link and BinSCII. Send me bug Computer Science MIT 1990 | reports. I need a job. Send me an offer. dcw@goldilocks.lcs.mit.edu | My opinions, you hear? MINE! dcw@athena.mit.edu | "Isn't this where..."
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) (10/19/90)
In article <9010190335.AA29375@apple.com> MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET writes: >I think the point of his mentioning all those cards is that he (we) spent >alot of money on them, so what are we supposed to do with them? Did they suddenly stop working, or what? I would think you could still use them just as you have been doing.
cyliao@hardy.u.washington.edu (Chun-Yao Liao) (10/19/90)
In article <7952@darkstar.ucsc.edu> unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) writes: > A GS laptop would be even better but I honestly believe an 8 bit >Apple // laptop could/would sell like hotcakes! yeah, for sure! And I think it is ossible using VLSI to make a //gs on a chip! SEE, there are already companies working on AT on a chip, One of them already announced their AT-in-a-chip So why not //GS in a chip? Then this chip can be used in the future when the project //x is finally come true! then we have a machine that is compatible all the way down to Apple ][! And since it's only a chip, it is best for laptops! cyliao@wam.umd.edu o NeXT : I put main frame power on two chips. @epsl.umd.edu o people: We put main flame power on two guys. @bagend.eng.umd.edu o :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: xxxxx@xxxxx.xxx.xxx (reserved) o RC + Apple // + Classic Music + NeXT = cyliao
mikeu@pro-magic.cts.com (Mike Ungerman) (10/20/90)
In-Reply-To: message from unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU > A GS laptop would be even better but I honestly believe an 8 bit > Apple // laptop could/would sell like hotcakes! I couldn't agree with you more on this one. If Apple's NEW technology and the folks who developed it were given a free reign to put their efforts into the ][ line, I'm sure they could KNOCK OUR SOCKS OFF! Those complaining that the new MAC's are more of the same old thing didn't look close enough. There are all new, miniaturized components on a much smaller circuit board inside those boxes. How do you think Apple, Inc can afford to sell the Classic for under 1K or the 2e emulator card for under $200? That same technology COULD put a 2e/c++ in the pocket of each of us if the engineers were allowed to do it. Too bad..... Too bad for Apple, Inc that they don't see this as a real market and not just a lot of hot air. I agree that our beef is not with the techies. It's with management from the highest levels down through the folks at the marketing department that want to kill the Apple ][. I also have a lot of disappointment with the department that purports to support the Users' Groups. Where were the mail outs to the Users' Groups for the Product Announcement. Where were the phone calls to the point's of contact that Apple has in their data base? We had to find out through the back door about Monday's events and more or less say "ready or not here we come." Now the efforts should concentrate on letting the folks who make the Laser line of Apple clones know that we are ready for them to introduce their new product line. Here is where a letter writing campaign might get some results. ______________________________________________________________________________ Mike Ungerman |Proline:mikeu@pro-magic Pro-Magic BBS: 407-366-0156 |uucp:crash!pnet01!pro-magic!mikeu 300/1200/2400/9600 Baud 24hrs |arpa:crash!pnet01!pro-magic!mikeu@nosc.mil Apple Tree of Central Florida, Inc |Internet:mikeu@pro-magic.cts.com Orlando, Florida|Voice:407-366-0060|Compuserve:71326,31 Prodigy: JSNP58A
mmunz@pro-beagle.cts.com (Mark Munz) (10/21/90)
In-Reply-To: message from dcw@lcs.mit.edu -> Obviously, this isn't the solution for all of us. On the other hand, -> it *does* make a good first time computer as it costs about as much to -> bring this thing up to speed as it does a GS. It's a mac, which is -> what Apple wants everyone to have in the future (like it or not - I'm -> not arguing about that). It runs older // stuff and it's pretty -> flexible (although not very expandible). Adding RAM is easy, and the A Mac is what Apple Inc. wants everyone to have in the present. (Just like they wanted everyone to have Apple II's years ago) In a few years (4, maybe 5 tops) Apple will introduce the machine that is designed to kill the Macintosh and then you'll see those Mac owners scream and moan about Apple's lack of support -- heck, Apple II owners knew that one years ago (when Apple just *forgot* what the Apple II was). If Apple wants its customers to buy new machines in the future, they need to show complete support for existing machines). Apple barely acknowledges that the Apple II exists (the computer that kept them alive for so many years while the Macintosh struggled) -- and when they do, its with the mention of the Mac LC... a computer that is announced *SIX* months before it is released. Apple's marketing folks really need to go back to school. The fact that Apple has killed a good hunk of Mac and Apple II sales for Christmas better wake up the stockholders (since folks will wait to see the Mac LC & IIe emulator, due to arrive in Jan, Feb 1991). Mark Munz (These are my own opinions, but you can use them too, if you want!)
taob@pro-micol.cts.com (Brian Tao) (10/21/90)
In-Reply-To: message from gtolar@nuchat.UUCP
Anybody have any idea how to detect this card in software? I'd like to keep anything I write from operating on that card.
*****
Now there's an interesting proposition... scuttling the //e emulator card
BEFORE it even hits the streets! :)
BTMQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (10/22/90)
On Fri, 19 Oct 90 15:17:41 GMT Doug Gwyn said: >In article <9010190335.AA29375@apple.com> MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET writes: >>I think the point of his mentioning all those cards is that he (we) spent >>alot of money on them, so what are we supposed to do with them? > >Did they suddenly stop working, or what? >I would think you could still use them just as you have been doing. Not if we move over to a Mac, like Apple wants us too. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | | This is your brain... | BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm | | This is your brain on drugs... | pro-line: | | This is your brain on whole wheat.| mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com | |____________________________________|_______________________________|
bill@pro-gateway.cts.com (Bill Long, SysOp) (10/22/90)
In-Reply-To: message from cyliao@hardy.u.washington.edu >> A GS laptop would be even better but I honestly believe an 8 bit >> Apple // laptop could/would sell like hotcakes! > > yeah, for sure! And I think it is ossible using VLSI to make > a //gs on a chip! SEE, there are already companies working on > AT on a chip, One of them already announced their AT-in-a-chip > So why not //GS in a chip? Because there's already so much prejudice against anything called an Apple II, that it wouldn't be nearly as profitable as something like AT-in-a-chip. ProLine: bill@pro-gateway | Pro-Gateway Internet: bill@pro-gateway.cts.com | Dallas, TX UUCP: crash!pro-gateway!bill | 214-644-5113 ARPA: crash!pro-gateway!bill@nosc.mil | 3/12/2400 baud BITNET: bill%pro-gateway.cts.com@nosc.mil | -Maturity is overrated-
m.tiernan@pro-angmar.UUCP (Michael Tiernan) (10/25/90)
In-Reply-To: message from bill@pro-gateway.cts.com
The person who sent me the Apple Tech sheets for the LC and the //e emulator
card also said that Apple (Mac Inc) is working on a new set of laptops. They
aren't going to design or build them. They are working with Toshiba and NEC
to develop them. Once they workout all the details, we may acctually get a
set of laptop machines for real.
<< MCT >>
GEnie : M.Tiernan
AppleLinkPE : M Tiernan or BCS Mike
Internet : pro-angmar!m.tiernan@alphalpha.com
UUCP : ...!uunet!alphalpha!pro-angmar!m.tiernan
"God isn't dead, he's only missing in action."
- Phil Ochsglaeske@plains.NoDak.edu (Brian Glaeske) (10/26/90)
I don't think anyone will get the Mac LC anyway, except for some gullible schools. The machine in my opinion is flawed. In a nutshell, the LC is just a glorified SE that can emulate a IIe with a $200 card. The card is flawed because you can't use it on every Macintosh. If I get a Mac I want a IIfx running A/UX with a IIe emulation. If I work hard enough on it, I could do an adeaquate soft IIe (like SoftPC) so I could run my IIe in a window. Everyone expects a Apple to everthing to everyone. That would be impossible. Everyone should go onto bigger and better things. -- Brian Glaeske - /| glaeske@plains.NoDak.edu [Internet] o.O` --Ooop ACK!! glaeske@plains [BITNET ] =(___)= ..!uunet!plains!glaeske [UUCP ] U "Bloom County Forever!!"
bainbrdk@sage.cc.purdue.edu (David Bainbridge) (10/26/90)
>In-Reply-To: message from gtolar@nuchat.UUCP > >Anybody have any idea how to detect this card in software? I'd like to keep anything I write from operating on that card. > This has got to take the award for the most ridiculous proposition I have ever seen.. A perfect example of someone trying to save their OWN investment by ATTEMPTING to prevent technology from moving on.
MQUINN%UTCVM@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (10/27/90)
On Fri, 26 Oct 90 16:07:01 GMT David Bainbridge said: >>In-Reply-To: message from gtolar@nuchat.UUCP >> >>Anybody have any idea how to detect this card in software? I'd like to keep > anything I write from operating on that card. >> >This has got to take the award for the most ridiculous proposition I have ever >seen.. A perfect example of someone trying to save their OWN investment by >ATTEMPTING to prevent technology from moving on. I don't know... to me, it looks like an attempt to keep software from working on those to help PREVENT the STAGNATION of Apple II technology. i.e. People might realize that there's alot of software that won't run on the //e card and decide to get REAL Apple II's instead, helping the sells of the // and 'forcing' apple inc. to reconsider their veiws on the support of the //. Although, I seriously doubt it will really do any good, but I can't blame him. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | | This is your brain... | BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm | | This is your brain on drugs... | pro-line: | | This is your brain on whole wheat.| mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com | |____________________________________|_______________________________|
philip@yunexus.yorku.ca (Phil McDunnough) (10/28/90)
In article <6462@plains.NoDak.edu> glaeske@plains.NoDak.edu (Brian Glaeske) writes: >I don't think anyone will get the Mac LC anyway, except for some gullible >schools. The machine in my opinion is flawed. I don't know about the computer being flawed, but I feel it is quite safe to assume that it will sell well. > >In a nutshell, the LC is just a glorified SE that can emulate a IIe with a >$200 card. The SE can't output regular colour, while the LC can. $200 for a IIe card is not bad. I assume this is to calm the nerves of schools. The IIe card will actually help AppleII() sales. >The card is flawed because you can't use it on every Macintosh. If I get a >Mac I want a IIfx running A/UX with a IIe emulation. If I work hard enough >on it, I could do an adeaquate soft IIe (like SoftPC) so I could run my IIe >in a window. The IIfx running A/UX is hardly a reasonable alternative. Take a look at the price/performance of an fx. It's a boat anchor. Why bother? >Everyone expects a Apple to everthing to everyone. That would be >impossible. Everyone should go onto bigger and better things. Hmm...why should everyone keep climbing the mountain? This is particularly true if what you have is doing what you want/need it to. And even if one wished to move on to bigger and better things, is Apple the company to offer them? Frankly, I have my doubts, even though I like the Mac and have used them for years. Philip McDunnough University of Toronto->philip@utstat.toronto.edu [my opinions]