johnmac@fawlty.towers.oz (John MacLean) (08/03/90)
Just one other thing - With TGE and 3200 color graphics, you can cut and
paste 3200 graphics, GIFs, and any other graphics together to form a new
3200 color graphic.
At the moment I still cannot tell whether I have things right or not -
I am still waiting for some 3200 graphics from another source.
All I know is I can load and save my own graphics.
John MacLean.
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Lane Cove, NSW 2066, Australia.johnmac@fawlty.towers.oz (John MacLean) (08/07/90)
Before anyone else corrects me - maybe they already have:
The palettes in 3200 mode are stored like this:
Palette for scanline 0: Color F, E, D, ...., 0
.
.
Palette for scanline 199: Color F, E, ......, 0
I guess I have not had enough sleep.
Should the standard store them like this just because all existing formats do?
A thought I had is that within APF the colors should be sorted (for each
scanline) such that the lightest colors appear first in the palette.
This would mean that a single grey scale palette would be effective for the
entire picture (and could be stored in the main chunk).
Of course if the picture had horizontal bands of darkness - ie: it was much
darker at the top than the bottom for example - you would get distortion -
but many pictures could be made sense of in this manner.
John MacLean.
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Lane Cove, NSW 2066, Australia.johnmac@fawlty.towers.oz (John MacLean) (08/13/90)
OK, I did some real tests with GIFs and 3200 graphics.
As I said before GIFs are limited to 256 colors, so 3200 is not that
great an advantage over 16 palettes (with optimization).
Some scanlines in GIFs will have > 16 colors in them - so you still have
to do some palette optimizations to get good results.
The quality of this optimization is what makes a good picture.
This can take a LONG time, especially if the number of colors in a scanline
is really large (it can theoretically be up to 320).
Anyway, a typical GIF picture: "NYMPH"
(This is the woman lying in the water with a deer - quite clean - it was
just a picture I knew actually used exactly 256 colors)
Original (320 x 200): 256 colors.
Optimized for 200 palettes: 219 colors.
Optimized for 16 palettes: 82 colors.
Optimized for 1 palette: 16 colors (of course).
Most 3200 graphics I have seen really only use approximately 150 colors.
The 16 palette version looks REALLY good (and uses no CPU cycles).
The 200 palette version is not distinguishable from the original (by my eyes).
I want to emphasise that these two graphics are VERY compareable - you
do not need to use CPU cycles to get a good result.
The single palette version looks terrible (changing standards!).
I am working on an IFF reader which will give me a source of > 256 color
graphics.
I am still looking for a good source of IFFs (of various sizes) - do not
E-mail them to me.
John MacLean.
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Lane Cove, NSW 2066, Australia.philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) (08/13/90)
In article <438@fawlty.towers.oz> johnmac@fawlty.towers.oz (John MacLean) writes: >OK, I did some real tests with GIFs and 3200 graphics. >As I said before GIFs are limited to 256 colors, so 3200 is not that >great an advantage over 16 palettes (with optimization). John, you have been talking about these graphics' translators for some time now for the GS. Do they exist? That is, where can they be obtained?> >Some scanlines in GIFs will have > 16 colors in them - so you still have >to do some palette optimizations to get good results. >The quality of this optimization is what makes a good picture. >This can take a LONG time [stuff deleted] How long can it take? Are we talking minutes or hours(days!)? While I'm at it how it is possible to have a freehand drawing program which will know when you've reached the 16 color limit in a particular line? Philip McDunnough University of Toronto philip@utstat.edu [my opinions]
jonah@amos.ucsd.edu (Jonah Stich) (08/13/90)
In article <1990Aug13.085955.11424@utstat.uucp> philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) writes: >In article <438@fawlty.towers.oz> johnmac@fawlty.towers.oz (John MacLean) writes: >>OK, I did some real tests with GIFs and 3200 graphics. >>As I said before GIFs are limited to 256 colors, so 3200 is not that >>great an advantage over 16 palettes (with optimization). > >John, you have been talking about these graphics' translators for some time >now for the GS. Do they exist? That is, where can they be obtained?> From what I understand, these converters will be part of the Graphic Exchange from Roger Wagner Publishing. Roger seems to be more interested in Hyper Studio than anything else, and last I heard John was having a hard time getting this released. Maybe if we all bugged Roger.... :) >>Some scanlines in GIFs will have > 16 colors in them - so you still have >>to do some palette optimizations to get good results. >>The quality of this optimization is what makes a good picture. >>This can take a LONG time [stuff deleted] > >How long can it take? Are we talking minutes or hours(days!)? Well, the F.U.C.K IFF converter supposedly takes 15 hours for 1 3200 color picture! I think John's gotten that down to about an hour! >While I'm at it how it is possible to have a freehand drawing program >which will know when you've reached the 16 color limit in a particular >line? I assume that you're talking about the rash of 3200 color paint programs about to hit the market. The way the paint programs work and the converters work is comopletely different. For the converters, they're going from a large number of colors, down to 16 per line. This 'quantizing' is what takes SO long. In the paint programs, however, you start with only 16 colors per line, and it's up to you to make good use of them. I've found that making good use of all 3200 avaliable colors takes more artistic ability than I have. Then again, that might be why I'm a programmer and not an artist. :) I know that, at least in Paint 3200, one of the biggest aims will be easy selection of color. I've already got a lot of useful tools to this end, and am workinig on a lot more! > >Philip McDunnough Jonah Stich
shatara@islnds.enet.dec.com (Chris Shatara) (08/14/90)
In article <12268@sdcc6.ucsd.edu>, jonah@amos.ucsd.edu (Jonah Stich) writes... >From what I understand, these converters will be part of the Graphic Exchange >from Roger Wagner Publishing. Roger seems to be more interested in Hyper >Studio than anything else, and last I heard John was having a hard time getting >this released. Maybe if we all bugged Roger.... :) Can Roger be buggedd via the net? I too am very interested in this and have held off on TGE waiting for these "soon to be released" features. ============================================================================= | Chris Shatara | Internet: shatara@islnds.enet.dec.com| | Opinions expressed are | DEC Easynet: islnds::shatara | | mine and mine only! | UUCP: ...!decwrl!islnds!shatara | =============================================================================
mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) (08/15/90)
In article <1847@mountn.dec.com> shatara@islnds.enet.dec.com (Chris Shatara) writes: > Can Roger be buggedd via the net? I too am very interested in this > and have held off on TGE waiting for these "soon to be released" > features. > Well, technically, yes, just like any developer who's on AppleLink. In this case, the address would be ROGER.WAGNER@applelink.apple.com Just remember that Roger has to pay for AppleLink time and probably won't appreciate several thousand letters in his box. -- ============================================================================ Matt Deatherage, Apple Computer, Inc. | "The opinions represented here are Developer Technical Support, Apple II | not necessarily those of Apple Group. Personal mail only, please. | Computer, Inc. Remember that." ============================================================================
johnmac@fawlty.towers.oz (John MacLean) (08/15/90)
>John, you have been talking about these graphics' translators for some time >now for the GS. Do they exist? That is, where can they be obtained?> I have finally seen the printed manual for TGE 4.2 from RWP - about time too - so I assume you can buy it - contact RWP again. My GIF and 3200 toolsets are now in beta (with most of the rest of the library disk). In other words, although TGE 4.2 is here you may be waiting till late in the year to get the first library disk. I assure you the library disk will not cost much if I have any say in it. >>Some scanlines in GIFs will have > 16 colors in them - so you still have >>to do some palette optimizations to get good results. >>The quality of this optimization is what makes a good picture. >>This can take a LONG time [stuff deleted] > >How long can it take? Are we talking minutes or hours(days!)? At present I do things with brute force - I find THE best colors for each scanline. This has taken 1.5 hours! (no Transwarp) for a single 200 palette image such as the one I mentioned. Optimization to 16 palettes can take up to 5 minutes. Obviously, the fewer the palettes, and the fewer colors used in each palette, the easier the optimization becomes. I have a new (faster) algorithm designed but I have to get my library disk installer script fixed up first and then my IFF toolset which is under way, and then my planned PCX (PC Paintbrush toolset), and then .... The thing is, you get excellent results - and once its done you can save it off in any format you like. I know this sort of time is REALLY SILLY, so do not bother telling me. And yes I write it all in assembler - how do you think I can save a GIF file in 20 seconds flat. >While I'm at it how it is possible to have a freehand drawing program >which will know when you've reached the 16 color limit in a particular >line? Keep frequency tables for each scanline and each color. This does take a LOT of memory. $2000 bytes per scanline => a lot. My opinion has always been that you should allow the user to choose any of the 4096 colors, use a scheme as above, and have huge lookup tables to translate colors dynamically as their frequency causes them to appear/ disappear from each palette. I played around with the code a while back and it did not look too bad, but It could be slow in real use. >Philip McDunnough John MacLean. -- This net: johnmac@fawlty.towers.oz.au Phone: +61 2 427 2999 That net: uunet!fawlty.towers.oz.au!johnmac Fax: +61 2 427 7072 Snail: Tower Technology, Unit D 31-33 Sirius Rd, Home: +61 2 960 1453 Lane Cove, NSW 2066, Australia.
mcgurrin@MWUNIX.MITRE.ORG (08/16/90)
Roger Wagner, as of yesterday, said the update was at the printer (I assume what you saw was a copy of what was going to the printer). It should be available "real soon now."
johnmac@fawlty.towers.oz (John MacLean) (09/06/90)
I finally got some > 256 color 3200 graphics going - REALLY nice.
First point is that I soon realised that the 3 digit number of colors
in my dialog box was not enough.
When I first loaded these pictures they had over 1000 colors in them.
After optimizations (down to 16 colors per scanline) I had two pictures
with over 500 colors in a 320 x 200 graphic. As I said, REALLY nice.
John MacLean.
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Lane Cove, NSW 2066, Australia.johnmac@fawlty.towers.oz (John MacLean) (11/23/90)
The other day I received 3 disks full of 3200 graphics.
Of these, most has less than 200 colors, many had only 64,
32, or even less colors.
I was quite disappointed with most of these pics, as they are
only as good in quality as the static (16 palette) pictures
I have created (many of them were conversions of the same
pictures).
I have at least ten pictures with more than 220 colors
(some with over 500). Are there any other such pictures
out there, or should I be attempting to create a few more
and putting together my own disk?
John MacLean.
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Lane Cove, NSW 2066, Australia.AABENSON@MTUS5.BITNET (12/06/90)
John: Could you please let me know how/where to make/get 3200 color pictures? I've heard about them, and I've taken a few demos from various FTP sites, but none have worked. Thanks alot! -Andrew A. Benson P.S. Again, please reply by email to "aabenson@balance.cs.mtu.edu", or preferably NOT "AABENSON@MTUS5.BITNET"