marekp@pnet91.cts.com (Marek Pawlowski) (12/19/90)
Here is part one.
It has been edited, meaning that some things may have been added in { }
brackets for clarity, and spelling errors have been taken out, along with the
vt100 stuff, and the line-scrolling problem.
-------
The Great Internet Apple Rally
First edit by Tim Meekins
Second edit by Marek Pawlowski
-------
Among people that showed:
Marek Pawlowski zoo.toronto.edu!generic!marekp
Andy McFadden fadden@cory.Berkeley.EDU
Entropy entropy@mole.ai.mit.edu
S-Roth/Indiana Jones/Clobot clobot@cola.engin.umich.edu
unknown/tuu unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu
Scott Alfter alfter@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu
Erland Lewin erl@alex.stacken.kth.se
Timothy Lee Meekins meekins@apple.cis.ohio-state.edu
stephie/daystar sweems@vttcf.CC.VT.EDU
Joseph Hillenburg anlhille@rose.ucs.indiana.edu
HardWAre umfonta6@ccu.umanitoba.ca
-------
Topic is What will Apple Inc. do NeXT, err, next
<Marek> Hi there.
<T-Meekins> Hello.
*** Change: unknown has joined this Channel (+Apple)
<Marek> I take it you heard of the little "meeting" today?
<T-Meekins> Sure have
<Marek> A party of three. Hi, unknown.
<unknown> Hello!
<unknown> Where the hell is everyone?!?!?!?!??!
<Marek> We'll wait until the party get's a bit bigger, eh?>
<T-Meekins> and hello from T Meekins
*** Change: unknown is now known as tuu
<Marek> You should stay with "unknown", people will know you better. :)
<Marek> It's almost 7.
<Marek> Who wants to buffer this chat?
<T-Meekins> I'm |tee'ing it
<Marek> Meaning, you are recording it?
<Marek> (Dunno the terminology - gack!)
<T-Meekins> So... how many West Coasters will wait 'til & PST?
<T-Meekins> Yeah...
*** Change: Erl has joined this Channel (+Apple)
<Marek> I definitely pointed out 7pm, EDT.
<Marek> Ah, another one. Greetings..
<Erl> Hi guys. Any Apple II people out there?
<T-Meekins> From Apple or just users?
[Marek] Could you pass on a copy of the conversation to:
zoo.toronto.edu!generic!marekp?
<T-Meekins> ok.
** Change: alfter has joined this Channel (+Apple)
<alfter> hello
<Marek> I assume we are all Apple II users..
*** Signoff: tuu
<T-Meekins> Hi Scott!
<alfter> Marek: Yes (I have a IIe)
<Marek> Greetings, and welcome, Scott.
<Erl> Well, I thought there might be Mac people... Nice to be among II users...
<T-Meekins> <grin>
<Erl> I've got a GS how about you?
<Marek> What do you have, Erl?
<Marek> Ah.
<Marek> Ok, time to start:
<Erl> The timing is a bit weird over the atlantic...
<alfter> Same for the West, too.
<alfter> (It's 4:04 PM here.)
<Marek> AGENDA: (and topic of discussion). What is Apple DOING to us, the
users.
<Erl> It's 1:01 am here...
<alfter> Simple answer: Apple isn't doing anything to us, they're _doing_ us.
:-)
<Marek> A few months ago, I talked to Jane Lee {indirectly}, and she
specifically told me that they would continue to sell Apple //s, if the demand
was there..
<Marek> ..AND, that Apple would continue to work on improving the technology
for Apple // users {if demand warranted it}..
*** Change: Boolean has joined this Channel (+Apple)
*** Change: tuu has joined this Channel (+Apple)
*** Mode change tuu +Apple +o tuu
<Erl> Well, at least you are better off in the states than here in Sweden,
Apple has absolutely no support for the Apple IIs. There are only a few GS's
here, all privately imported...
<Marek> (I will post my interview with various people, soon)
*** Change: unknown has joined this Channel (+Apple)
<T-Meekins> Although many are upset with for many reasons, I think they're
still with us. The System Software support has been great.
<unknown> Hello? Something was screwing up on my end I think
<unknown> Did it hang up on everyone?
*** Change: Boolean has left this Channel
<Marek> Anyway, Jane Lee had a COMPLETELY different attitude a few months ago,
than now. (She works in the Mac Section, no?).
<alfter> Yeah, the new program selector in ProDOS 8 is nice. (Don't see it
much with Davex, though.)
<unknown> Wow!! lots of people!
<alfter> unknown (and anyone else new): hello
<unknown> Meekins: Are you still writing GS stuff?
*** Signoff: tuu
*** Change: unknown is now known as tuu
<tuu> Weird.. I Didn't sign off!
<T-Meekins> sure am..Got lots of stuff half written...<sigh>
<Erl> Does someone know if System software development is significantly cheaper
than hardware development? Perhaps apple thinks developing the hardware is too
expensive...
*** Change: Indiana has joined this Channel (+Apple)
<Marek> Even if Apple DOES "dump" us, officially, the users will continue to
support it..
*** Change: Indiana is now known as clobot
<tuu> When are you gonna release something? A --game-- perhaps?? (like a Super
Mario Bros kind of arcade/adventure for the GS!)
<Marek> Hardware takes resources to develop, this can be costly.
<tuu> But we NEED Apple's support! Five years ago we wouldn't have.. NOW WE DO
DESPERATELY!
<tuu> so how many people are on here?
<clobot> 6 right now.
<clobot> you do a /names to see
<alfter> Hardware costs money--unless you use off-the-shelf stuff, which could
bring the II into the 90s easily.
<Marek> That is up for grabs.. (Type /who *, unknown).. I think we could
manage on our own..
<T-Meekins> I have no fear of being left in the cold by Apple, but I do fear
that HW advances may not be anywhere in the future.
*** Change: Peppar has joined this Channel (+Apple)
<tuu> So is anyone else writing GS stuff? Like games maybe?!?!
<Peppar> Hi
<Marek> I know I'll still develop.
<Erl> This might be the reason for Apple's behavior: Hardware development is
just to costly...
<T-Meekins> I've got C source for Boulder Dash and have considering doing a
port.
<Erl> What programming languages do you use?
<alfter> tuu: I'm not writing GS stuff, but I am writing stuff for IIe/IIc
(and GS, by extension).
<tuu> WOW !!!! COOL!!! Would you do it "legit" through Br0derbund or whoever
or would you do it "under the table" (i.e. freeware)
<Peppar> Yoo Marek, Marek is my middle name
<Marek> I'll be releasing my 8-bit Unix, single user mode. With things like
uu{en|de}code, and uucp..
<T-Meekins> I think we all know...from rumors...that the GS+ has been finished
for over year but Apple refuses to build it and market it.
<tuu> Have you seen the GS version of Lode Runner?
<alfter> Marek: sounds interesting! (I won't have to figure out UUCP then. :)
<Marek> Another Marek, how interesting!!
<Marek> UUCP should have been done LONG ago.
<Peppar> Peter Marek Parnes
<tuu> But a "single user" Unix is a contradiction in terms! Does it have
PIPING? REDIRECTION? MULTITASKING? all of those are -inherent- in UNIX!
<Erl> Has anyone experimented with Multitasking by interrupts on the GS?
<Marek> There is NO excuse for it not being developed before.
<tuu> It already exists Erl!! LeapFrog!
<Erl> Single user multitasking unix is possible.
<clobot> Any of you heard of the tcp/ip project and how it's going?
<Marek> Piping, redirection, and a LITTLE multi-tasking..
*** Change: homeboy has joined this Channel (+Apple)
<Erl> tuu: I never really got leapfrog to work...
<homeboy> hello
<tuu> But will it do everything I can do on my school UNIX I can do? I mean if
it CAN'T, then it's NOT UNIX!
<Peppar> hy homeboy
<alfter> How much memory will this UNIX-like system take? Would a 1-meg RamWor
<tuu> Erl: Neither did I, but I never tried.. I'm waiting for version' 1.0 or
something..
<T-Meekins> I've written lots of interrupt routines for various projects, but I
never worried about multitasking problems. Though I did have an occasional
direct page clash.
<Marek> Yes, it will, except running things in the background, and handling >2
users at the same time..
<Marek> My version takes up VERY little. The kernal and shell reside in
memory, while the binaries are loadable modules. A 64k machine could run it.
<tuu> Well, THEN IF YOU CAN'T RUN THINGS IN THE BACKGROUND IT ISN'T UNIX. I'm
sorry for being so anally retentive about this, but you CAN'T call it UNIX if
it doesn't do all of those things (and more)
<homeboy> exit
*** Signoff: homeboy
<T-Meekins> What we need is a program in which clicking in one window activates
that program and clicking in another activates that program... something like
LeapFrog I believe?
<Marek> Ah, but it has everything else Unix has to offer. Which makes it GOOD
ENOUGH.
<alfter> I suppose the RamWorks could be set up as a RAMdisk then to make thing
<tuu> AAAAH Names is showing me EVERYONE!
<Erl> tuu: I have experimented with it... modifying the interrupt manager
etc... but it crashes in some situations... I suspect interrupts occurring
while the GS is in emulation mode is somehow causing the problem...
<alfter> tuu: Try /names +Apple.
<tuu> LeapFrog DID multitask, not just a switcher! Tmeekins is talking about a
switcher!
<Marek> Yes, you could load it all in to ram. An accelerator would work like a
charm as well..
<Marek> Plus a Hard Drive..
<T-Meekins> But it's a start! Multitasking comes later...
<Marek> I will release my UUCP, uu*code first.
<alfter> T-Meekins: what you describe is MultiFinder, which isn't multitasking
*** Change: Peppar has left this Channel
<Marek> Exactly. I might leave MTing for someone else to do. Unix for one guy
to write, is a MAJOR effort (modesty alert!)
<Erl> I was planning on making a multitasking kernel for the ORCA shell ... to
make it be able to run stuff in the background like unix... letting me put
things in the background! Currently I have 2 things in the background.. (A
thing that beeps when I have mail and a thing that keeps track of people who
are on)
<tuu> But Marek: It is N O T doing everything UNIX has to offer... if it's no
<T-Meekins> But how does a windowing environment such as the GS properly run
multitasking? Or do you force a text environment lie Unix, or develop an
entirely new windowing environment...
<Marek> What is the use of that, if A you WON'T GET MAIL WHEN LOGGED ON, and
only two users can run it!
<tuu> UUen/decode already exist
<Marek> A forced text environment. I don't have a GS.
<Marek> It doesn't exist for 8 bits.
<Erl> The Mac CAN truly multitask under the multifinder if the programs are
properly written...
<T-Meekins> Apple II generic then...
<Marek> Exactly. EVERYONE should be able to use it.
<clobot> I think we're being a bit harsh here to Marek.... He has gone thru the
effort to develop this thing. Maybe we expect a bit much?
<alfter> Yes...don't forget those of us with the 8-bit machines!
<tuu> If I am having UUCP, then I can have an Internet connection, so I can
have an Internet connection, then I do want it to beep when I get mail!
<alfter> UUCP != Internet
<T-Meekins> How are interrupts generated? SSC?
<tuu> The -only- thing I'm picking on is the name. I think it's MARVELOUS and
am glad it'll happen, it just IS NOT UNIX.
<alfter> Neither is GNU. :-)
<tuu> I think it should work on the GS in windowing mode.. Like the Mac and
NeXT!
<Marek> Since it CAN'T REALLY multitask, you won't have a UUCP connection open,
while you are logged in (this IS possible though).
<T-Meekins> Just remember...Unix isn't perfect..
<Marek> Ok, MarIX, how's that? :)
<Erl> The first step to developing multitasking is to get a small kernel to
work in the text mode... I haven't seen that done yet...
<tuu> Well then it's not UNIX if it can't multitask either.. Marek.. I hope
you're not getting pissed at me as we talk all the time.... I'm just picking on
it for the sake of discussion partially.
<Marek> Unix is FAR from perfect.. I agree..
<Marek> It's very hard to get me pissed off, unknown.. :)
*** Change: Jenny has joined this Channel (+Apple)
<alfter> UNIX is still tons better than the other stuff I've seen...
<alfter> (so far, that is)
<T-Meekins> How 'bout obtaining the source to ECP and adding multitasking?
<tuu> I actually really really like UNIX! It's so damn cool to be able to make
shell scripts and stuff! It's sort of like making -NEW- programs by
piping/redirecting a whole bunch of EXISTING programs together!! (like AWK and
GREP, etc!)
<Erl> the NeXT with UNIX isn't that bad, is it?
<Marek> The bottom line, it's better than anything ProDOS can do, with
BASIC.SYSTEM in there.
<tuu> It's the best of both worlds... It's got UNIX -and- it's got the GUI!
<alfter> Erl: I'm using a NeXT right now.
<Marek> (I haven't done AWK and SED, yet.)
<alfter> (It's 2500 miles away, though.)
<Erl> alfter: How do you like the NeXT? Have you tried the new models?
<Marek> Mach is a nice substitute for the real thing.
<tuu> I don't know AWK much, but someone was showing me how they wrote little
shell scripts that did wonderful things with AWK and GREP, etc...
<T-Meekins> Actually...A text environment which installs progs in the BG then
can launch a GUI-type program would be a possibility, though not perfect
<Marek> You haven't seen my Unix/MDSS scripts yet, have you! :)
<alfter> Erl: I like it a bunch. I haven't seen the newer ones. I haven't
even used the console in months (the NeXT is in Illinois; I'm in Nevada).
<Marek> The tricky part, is file permissions..
<tuu> Does anyone know how much ORCA/C costs and where the cheapest place to
get it is? My mom's said already that she'll get me ORCA/C since she doesn't
know diddley about where/how much to get programs...
<alfter> (rlogin is a wonderful thing :-) )
<Marek> ORCA/C circa $35 in the US.
<T-Meekins> tuu: $99?
<Jenny> clobot: Why did you send a private msg ?
<Marek> (ack! Not the US, I meant Canada :)
<Marek> 99$!!?!?!
<Erl> all: I think we need to define UNIX more precisely. Is it the OS only or
does UNIX include the CLI? How do the GUIs enter in this definition?
<T-Meekins> <from memory> :)
<Erl> ORCA/M is great.
<T-Meekins> ORCA/M!!
<alfter> UNIX doesn't include the CLI; for that you pick the C Shell, Bourne
shell, etc.
<tuu> Sometimes when I'm logged in from home (like now, during vacations), I
log directly IN to one machine, connect somehow (it's a weird so I don't know
if it's RLOGIN or telnet) THEN telnet to ucscb!! Lots of net time!
<tuu> $99, right??? So I --just- can buy ORCA/C right? I don't need any ORCA sh
<Erl> alfter: are you using the NeXTs GUI remotely? or just a TTY interface?
<Marek> My version, is the Unix part, plus more. <mostly an OS.. Plus, the
ability to take existing s/w, and patching it up to work under the environment,
since it is so small and compact..
<T-Meekins> So, does everyone actually want a Unix clone, or just a nice
shell/OS with multitasking?
<alfter> Erl: Yeah, it's a remote connection; tty interface (vt100 emulation).
<tuu> I want a UNIX CLONE!!!! GREP... AWK... .alias files! rn! everything!
<Erl> T-Meekins: Just multitasking under an ORCA like shell would be great...
<alfter> A UNIX clone would be nice, but whether it's possible...just a
multitasking OS would be great, too.
<Marek> I have rn, aliases, shell variables, piping, redirection, grep..
<clobot> I'm impressed. --> Marek
<alfter> (Maybe Davex could be patched; it already has lots of the
file-oriented stuff in it.)
<T-Meekins> I think a Unix clone is asking a bit much....but IF A PC CAN DO IT
SO CAN WE!
<Erl> alfter: I agree... I don't need an exact clone of UNIX, just something
similar with multitasking....
<Marek> I actually gave up on UUCP a while ago, and it's Morgan Davis' job now
:)
<tuu> but no background processes!!! aaah! you're -sooo- close!! Hey Marek, do
you have a % prompt! That'll warm the heart!
<Marek> You have the $prompt variable, so make it what you want.. My prompt
='# ' , super user.. :)
<Marek> But background processes are VERY hard to do!
*** Change: Anubis has joined this Channel (+Apple)
<alfter> What kind of multitasking are you going for? The Thunderclock in my
IIe would allow preemptive multitasking, as would the GS heartbeat and IIc VBL
interrupt.
<tuu> So is UUCP gonna be finished? There's a guy who runs a BBS (DarkSide, he
actually has a UseNet group for the BBS software he wrote and sells.. called
alt.bbs.waffle I think), and he always says UUCP isn't possible on an Apple II!
I wanna show him up! (He's....
<clobot> greetings anubus.
<tuu> ....a really smart guy who can program really well though)
<Anubis> Hello Clobot. Might not want to say hi to me though, I'm an Amiga
owner.
<Erl> marek: Background processes are NOT that hard to do! If you know what you
are doing with interrupts...
<clobot> anubis.
<tuu> Marek: Do you have STANDARD In and STANDARD OUT?? So those can be
changed? (and standard error?!)
<T-Meekins> Year after year, we hear from people (individuals) working on Unix
clones, but nothing has happened. What we need is a group effort of many
individuals working on such a project
<Marek> Anyone who say's UUCP is impossible, I want to smack 'im one..
<tuu> But isn't UUCP some speed critical thing?
END OF FILE 1 (Phew! Massive editing!)
-------
Reminder, these meetings will take place every Saturday, at 7pm EDT, on the
Internet IRC, channel "+Apple".
/* Marek Pawlowski, marekp@{generic|pnet91|contact|bkj386|torag|aunix}.uucp */
/* President, Intelligent Twist Software, 250 Harding Blvd, PO BOX 32017 */
/* Richmond Hill, Ontario, L4C 9M7, CANADA. An ideal route is as follows: */
/* { Ph: (416) 884-4501 4-8pm EDT } generic!pnet91!marekp@zoo.toronto.edu */