unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (12/15/90)
In article <10621@ucrmath.ucr.edu> rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes: >Ten years ago no one would think of writing an application in anything >other than assembly language. Then we graduated a bunch of fools who >knew only "C" or Pascal. That's when writing (egads!) games in "C" I know you may be exaggerating, but I will presume you were being serious. At UCSC, one of the beginning CE/CIS classes all CE/CIS (computer engineering or computer and information sciences majors, the latter being totally software and MUCH MUCH MUCH less stringent and MUCH MUCH easier than computer engineering... No offense to any UCSC CIS people who may be reading this.. I at one time thought of switching to CIS!) majors must take is an assembly language programming class. It's in 8088 on PCs... One thing I will say about the PCs was that doing interrupt stuff sure is damn easy! You just do a little BIOS call and change an address to your new routine... (I would HOPE it's that easy on the GS, but you have to go through the toolbox, don't you?? Someone please inform me).. Basically what I'm trying to say is that I would be all computer majors have to take at least one class in assembly. >BTW: I am doing something about this. I got so fed up with the lack of >assembly language talent that I started teaching the subject at UC Riverside >and Cal Poly Pomona. Are you teaching it in 6502 on the Apple II?! Now that'd be a class to take!!! -- /Apple II(GS) Forever! unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu MAIL ME FOR INFO ABOUT CHEAP CDs\ |WRITE TO ORIGIN ABOUT ULTIMA VI //e and IIGS! Mail me for addresses, & info. | \ "Dammit Bev, is it you inside or is it the clown?" -IT by Stephen King /
rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) (12/16/90)
>> all computer majors have to take at least one class in assembly. This is the case at most universities today. Alas, the classes are rarely taught by "enlightened" instructors. I begged for the job at UCR because I was tired of listening to the instructor begin the class with "You'll never use this stuff again because assembly is obsolete, but it's required so we'll fumble our way through it." Furthermore, after this *ONE* class which turned the students completely off, they rarely get the chance to use assembly again. I, for one, have been attempting to reverse that trend. I require my operating system students to use assembly language, I require my software engineering students to use assembly language, and I require my microcomputer lab students to use assembly language. The only place where I wimp out is in my compiler class. There I let the students generate three-address style code in "C" rather than assembly. Compilers is sufficiently complex that I don't need the added complexity of weak assembly language students on top of every thing else. >> Are you teaching it in 6502..? Heavens no! 6502 assembly language is not a very marketable skill these days. Although I have the academic freedom to teach whatever I like, I can guarantee you that it takes a considerable effort to get these students interested in assembly language in the first place. One of my motivations is that there are 50 million PCs out there and that there is considerble need (employment) for 80x86 assembly language programmers. The 65xxx family wouldn't cut it here. OTOH, the second quarter of my microcomputer lab does deal with low-end processors. Alas, the 6502 is not low-end enough to qualify here (we're talking 8048s and 8051s). The third quarter is dedicated to high-end chips like the 32000 from National (the first quarter, which is the only one required to graduate, uses the 8088). >> Now that would be a class to take! I would love to teach a 65816 assembly language class. I used to teach 6502 in many computer stores around So Cal. Perhaps some of you have even seen my book on 6502 assembly language. Alas, I'd probably only get two or three students taking such a class. I doubt I could sell it to the university. 65816 assembly language is difficult. The M & X bits are exceeded only by segmentation in complexity to a beginning student (we don't *EVEN* get into segmentation in the assembly language class). However, anyone who can make it through an 816 assembly language course would have to be good. *** Randy Hyde
alfter@uns-helios.nevada.edu (SCOTT ALFTER) (12/16/90)
In article <10136@darkstar.ucsc.edu> unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) writes: > It's in 8088 on PCs... One thing I will say about the PCs was >that doing interrupt stuff sure is damn easy! You just do a little BIOS >call and change an address to your new routine... (I would HOPE it's >that easy on the GS, but you have to go through the toolbox, don't you?? >Someone please inform me).. To get an interrupt daemon up and running, just issue an ALLOC_INTERRUPT call to the MLI, along with the address where your daemon resides; ProDOS will then add the daemon to the routines it'll check when the system is interrupted. All that remains after that is to stick a CLI in your source code to enable interrupts. Only four interrupt drivers are supported, though; when you no longer need a particular daemon, DEALLOC_INTERRUPT will get rid of it for you. More comprehensive information is in _Beneath_Apple_ProDOS_. BTW, note that this example is for 8-bit IIs as well as the GS; I figure this information would be of more interest than GS-specific info. Besides, I don't have a GS and couldn't help you with interrupt questions on that machine. Scott Alfter-----------------------------_/_---------------------------- / v \ Apple II: Internet: alfter@uns-helios.nevada.edu ( ( the power to be your best! GEnie: S.ALFTER \_^_/
toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) (12/16/90)
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) writes: > It's in 8088 on PCs... One thing I will say about the PCs was >that doing interrupt stuff sure is damn easy! You just do a little BIOS >call and change an address to your new routine... (I would HOPE it's >that easy on the GS, but you have to go through the toolbox, don't you?? >Someone please inform me).. Patching out the interrupt vectors is really easy. I've got an init that patches out the AppleTalk IRQ handler to work with the ZipGS _without_ needing the AppleTalk Delay option. You make tool calls to get and set the address; in my case I save the old address because I want to be in-between the AppleTalk IRQ code and the system. Here at Caltech one of the recommended course sequences for EE's and CS people is a pair of courses which cover 80188 programming and microcontrolled system construction -- I still have mine. The 8 mhz 80188 wasn't fast enough to do what I wanted to do via interrupts because the Segment registers take too long to save and restore. A 65816 would have made the software for the project a lot easier. Todd Whitesel toddpw @ tybalt.caltech.edu
tsouth@techbook.com (Todd South) (12/18/90)
In article <10627@ucrmath.ucr.edu> rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes: >>> all computer majors have to take at least one class in assembly. > >This is the case at most universities today. Alas, the classes are >rarely taught by "enlightened" instructors. So sadly true. One can't even get correspondence courses in 6502 anymore for government work (and we do have so systems still using 6502's). >>> Are you teaching it in 6502..? > >Heavens no! 6502 assembly language is not a very marketable skill these >days. ^^^^^^^^^^ | Keyword Alert! > >Although I have the academic freedom to teach whatever I like, I >can guarantee you that it takes a considerable effort to get these students >interested in assembly language in the first place. IHMO, this is the result of years and years of braindead Pascal teachers assaulting the high school kids with the structure god! :) OTOH, I've yet to see many high school comp teachers that really want to mold programmers instead of academians. >I would love to teach a 65816 assembly language class. I used to teach 6502 >in many computer stores around So Cal. Perhaps some of you have even seen >my book on 6502 assembly language. Alas, I'd probably only get two or three >students taking such a class. I doubt I could sell it to the university. >65816 assembly language is difficult. The M & X bits are exceeded only by >segmentation in complexity to a beginning student (we don't *EVEN* get into >segmentation in the assembly language class). However, anyone who can make >it through an 816 assembly language course would have to be good. > >*** Randy Hyde Have you ever thought of working on a correspondence medium? From your (and others) past works I'm always reminded of the books that lead everyone up to a point and then leave the person (who wants more) somewhat hanging. Not so much you, but Gary Little comes to mind very quickly. You ever notice how books like "Exploring the Apple //gs" cover some really neat stuff that the beginning //gs programmer should know, but stops when it comes to using shadoing effectively, animation data structures, graphic data structures (which are useful and would really work with a commercially publishable program), showing good techniques for crossing the 64K segment boundaries with programs and/or data structures, etc... Too bad people like the FTA want to keep showing off/bitching about the Apple //gs' capabilities. They ought to write down this stuff and sell it to types like me who don't have the time to trudge through tons of notes before finding the right way to cross reference 3-dimensional data structures. Sorry for mumbling... Todd South -- -- tsouth@techbook.COM ...!{tektronix!nosun,uunet}techbook!tsouth Public Access UNIX at (503) 644-8135 (1200/2400) Voice: +1 503 646-8257 Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
flee@gnh-applesauce.cts.com (FRANK LEE) (12/23/90)
Assembly is great! I'm currently using a term program that I hand-coded in 6502 asm. INET: flee@gnh-applesauce.cts.com UUCP: crash!pnet01!gnh-applesauce!flee ARPA: crash!pnet01!gnh-applesauce!flee@nosc.mil