youngdahl@gacvx1.gac.edu (01/14/91)
Hello everyone... since I'm new to this discussion, I'll introduce myself: My name is Ben Youngdahl, and I'm a student of Comp. Sci. at Gustavus Adolphus College in Minnesota. I've been programming on Apple II's since 1982 when I owned a II+. Now I'm equipted with a IIgs and a strong will to create something new for this fantastic computer. I have a great interest in the 3200 "mode" of the IIgs. I understand the basic ideas behind tweaking out the extra colors, but the Orca/C code I have written to date performs below my expectations. I have to wonder: is there any source code for the 3200 mode available? Even the source to a simple display program would be all I need to get my programming going in the right direction. It strikes me as funny that the IIgs has such fantastic demos out for it, showing border animation, multiple pallettes on screen, better-than-apple-tools sound, etc. ... and yet there is really no clear source of getting information on how this is done. Since Apple refuses to enhance the IIgs by providing information on how to access the "tweaks" of border-animation, 3200 color graphics, and quick scrolling techniques they essentially have stripped the developing community of any "punch" behind their products. Their apears to be simply *NO* clear source of information on these topics beyond word-of-mouth... Now if this FTA book is REAL, then we may all have a source to some fresh new ideas on programming the IIgs. Any comments? Maybe I'm missing some fantastic Apple programmer magazine that tells the nitty-gritty on programming stuff like the FTA demos... I mean if FTA REALLY wants to save the IIgs, they should do as Apple has not -- make the true power of the IIgs known to the "programming masses." Otherwise, a few flashy demos does nothing but remind us that Apple is taking us for a ride. In summary: I hope this FTA book is real... Ben Youngdahl youngdahl@gacvx1.gac.edu (Generic signature -- no quotes, no calories, no questions asked)
toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) (01/14/91)
youngdahl@gacvx1.gac.edu writes: >I have a great interest in the 3200 "mode" of the IIgs. I understand the basic >ideas behind tweaking out the extra colors, but the Orca/C code I have written >to date performs below my expectations. I have to wonder: is there any source >code for the 3200 mode available? Even the source to a simple display program >would be all I need to get my programming going in the right direction. The only way to get 3200 colors to work properly is to do some tight assembly. Unfortunately, I don't have any source to pipe your way yet -- try Jonah Stich, his routines are big but they get the job done. >It strikes me as funny that the IIgs has such fantastic demos out for it, >showing border animation, multiple pallettes on screen, better-than-apple-tool >sound, etc... and yet there is really no clear source of getting information >on how this is done. Nearly everything you need to know is in the hardware reference manual and in various technical notes published by Apple. The question is whether you figure it out yourself or wait for somebody to tutorial it. >Now if this FTA book is REAL, then we may all have a source to some fresh new >ideas on programming the IIgs. It's real, all right; What we don't know is when the translation is going to be finished. >Any comments? Maybe I'm missing some fantastic Apple programmer magazine that >tells the nitty-gritty on programming stuff like the FTA demos... GS+ does a bit of that (I think; dang, gotta subscribe). >I mean if FTA REALLY wants to save the IIgs, they should do as Apple has not-- >make the true power of the IIgs known to the "programming masses." Otherwise, >a few flashy demos does nothing but remind us that Apple is taking us for a >ride. I agree with this. The XMAS demo gave me an idea: a game that used the borders as info displays. I know how the border animation is done; but I've got a queue of utilities to write before I can spend too much time on fun stuff. Todd Whitesel toddpw @ tybalt.caltech.edu
jeffh@HyperMail.apple.com (Jeff Holcomb) (01/15/91)
In article <1991Jan14.005429.1@gacvx1.gac.edu> youngdahl@gacvx1.gac.edu writes: > Since Apple refuses to enhance the IIgs by providing information on how to > access the "tweaks" of border-animation, 3200 color graphics, and quick > scrolling techniques they essentially have stripped the developing community of > any "punch" behind their products. Their apears to be simply *NO* clear source > of information on these topics beyond word-of-mouth... > Hmm, I didn't know this was Apple's responsibility. There are several programs out that use 3200 mode, why don't you ask the people that programmed them? At last year's Apple II Developers conference in Kansas City, there were several sessions dealing with graphics, animation, sound, etc. A lot of useful info was provided and you can order the session tapes if you want from Resource-Central (publisher of A2-Central). > Any comments? Maybe I'm missing some fantastic Apple programmer magazine that > tells the nitty-gritty on programming stuff like the FTA demos... Check out 8-16 Central, a disk-based magazine available from Resource-Central. Personally, I think that the FTA demos were neat for viewing once, but not useful in any real way. ___________________________________________________________________________ Jeff Holcomb Internet: jeffh@HyperMail.apple.com AppleLink: jeffh@HyperMail.apple.com@INTERNET# GEnie: A2.JEFFH Contracting for Apple ATG Voice: (408) 974-0841 My opinions are not necessarily those of Apple. :-P ___________________________________________________________________________
jonah@crl.ucsd.edu (Jonah Stich) (01/15/91)
In article <1991Jan14.005429.1@gacvx1.gac.edu> youngdahl@gacvx1.gac.edu writes: >Hello everyone... since I'm new to this discussion, I'll introduce myself: > >My name is Ben Youngdahl, and I'm a student of Comp. Sci. at Gustavus Adolphus >College in Minnesota. I've been programming on Apple II's since 1982 when I >owned a II+. Now I'm equipted with a IIgs and a strong will to create >something new for this fantastic computer. Okay, you've made my day! :) >I have a great interest in the 3200 "mode" of the IIgs. I understand the basic >ideas behind tweaking out the extra colors, but the Orca/C code I have written >to date performs below my expectations. I have to wonder: is there any source >code for the 3200 mode available? Even the source to a simple display program >would be all I need to get my programming going in the right direction. Okay, first off you're not going to be able to do it straight from C. You'll need to link in an ASM procedure that'll display the picture. I wrote some source to do this and uploaded it to America OnLine.... >It strikes me as funny that the IIgs has such fantastic demos out for it, >showing border animation, multiple pallettes on screen, better-than-apple-tools >sound, etc. ... and yet there is really no clear source of getting information >on how this is done. What you gotta do is RUN, don't walk, and get yourself any/all of the following you don't already have: * A modem * An AOL account * A subscription to 8/16-Central * A GEnie account if you still have some money left. On AOL (and GEnie) there are HUGE source code libraries. There are people who know how to do what you want to do, or at least now how to go about doing it. I recommend AOL above GEnie, simply because GEnie is hard to use. How hard? Well, I've been using computers for about 11 years now, and I STILL can't use GEnie.... AOL, on the other hand, is God's gift to Apple users. I LOVE it! Oh, BTW, I agree that some of the FTA stuff is better than Apple's tools, but PLEASE use the tools and follow the rules!! If you want to help the GS, write something USEFUL, that works with the standard GS interface. Scott Gentry is building a list of things people would like to see written. If you can't get through to him, herer are two to chew on: Mathematica GS A GS ray tracer >Since Apple refuses to enhance the IIgs by providing information on how to >access the "tweaks" of border-animation, 3200 color graphics, and quick >scrolling techniques they essentially have stripped the developing community of >any "punch" behind their products. Their apears to be simply *NO* clear source >of information on these topics beyond word-of-mouth... 8/16-Central is an EXCELLENT magazine for programming the GS. Add an online service to that, and you're set. Every question you have can be answered. I even hear there's some source on AOL that shows how to do border animation and the like. I KNOW there's 3200 color source, fast graphics/scrolling source, border bar source, and smoe other nifty things because I worte and uploadedd them myself. >Ben Youngdahl >youngdahl@gacvx1.gac.edu Jonah Stich jonah@crl.ucsd.edu PS. If you want me to mail you the 3200 color source, send me mail to the address listed three lines above. I am VERY bad about getting back to people, so unless I have mail sitting in my mailbox reminding me, I'll probably forget to do it.
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (01/15/91)
In article <15603@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> jonah@crl.ucsd.edu (Jonah Stich) writes: >In article <1991Jan14.005429.1@gacvx1.gac.edu> youngdahl@gacvx1.gac.edu writes: >>My name is Ben Youngdahl, and I'm a student of Comp. Sci. at Gustavus Adolphus >>College in Minnesota. I've been programming on Apple II's since 1982 when I >>owned a II+. Now I'm equipted with a IIgs and a strong will to create >>something new for this fantastic computer. >Okay, you've made my day! :) Me too! New programmers for the GS are appreciated heartily! (I've started GS specific programming too and can't figure something out on my FIRST program, so I may post source later) >What you gotta do is RUN, don't walk, and get yourself any/all of the following >you don't already have: > >* A modem >* An AOL account Oh comon! This guy is already on USENET and has INTERNET access (either direct FTP or to some that have mail "servers" or whatever they're called). Wasting money on one of those pay services seems dumb! I will admit that I haven't used any of those services for more than a minute or two on demos, but I can't IMAGINE how anything can be better than InterNet/UseNet! (UNIX too!) Either FREE (Univ students/employees of big companies) or VERY cheap ($10/month Portal accounts! If portal isn't countrywide, there are probably other systems or even "regular" BBSes that have InterNet access). >* A subscription to 8/16-Central Well this one is probably pretty good.. GS+ would be good too. >* A GEnie account if you still have some money left. SAME reply as for AOL. >On AOL (and GEnie) there are HUGE source code libraries. There are people Well, you can get help through UseNet too... Might take longer (kinda doubt it!), but it's cheaper. >Oh, BTW, I agree that some of the FTA stuff is better than Apple's tools, >but PLEASE use the tools and follow the rules!! If you want to help the GS, >write something USEFUL, that works with the standard GS interface. Scott >Gentry is building a list of things people would like to see written. If >you can't get through to him, herer are two to chew on: > >Mathematica GS >A GS ray tracer Good suggestion about using the tools!! Hey, -I- might be able to write a ray-tracer after I'm done with this Computer Graphics class.. (We're using 386s with an "Imagraph" card that's 512*512*24bit color.. It has a separate monitor.. monochrome monitor then the "Imagraph" monitor.. There's a gif-viewing utility that a few of us found and have been fiddling with and it's amazingly fast! But if Todd P's Lord High Giffer is more than TWICE as fast as Jonah's, it might actually start to give this one a run for it's money! Oh yeah, the main thing I was going to say is that the graphic functions for this thing seem remarkably like the ToolBox.. but probably all systems' functions will seem that way.. Like Windows stuff probably seems like the ToolBox at least a little bit) -- /Apple II(GS) Forever! unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu MAIL ME FOR INFO ABOUT CHEAP CDs\ \WRITE TO ORIGIN ABOUT ULTIMA VI //e and IIGS! Mail me for addresses, & info. /
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (01/15/91)
In article <15603@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> jonah@crl.ucsd.edu (Jonah Stich) writes: >Oh, BTW, I agree that some of the FTA stuff is better than Apple's tools, >but PLEASE use the tools and follow the rules!! As Jim Mensch (I think) said at KansasFest, this is not an onerous burden, since all you have to do is allocate a GrafPort (or whatever it's called) to cover the space you then use via direct "bare metal" display access, and similarly for other toolkits. The important part is to "officially" allocate resources rather than just plow ahead and use them without coordinating with GS/OS and the toolbox. >Mathematica GS I know enough about the structure of Mathematica to promise that the only way this will ever be accomplished is for somebody to have access to the source code. >A GS ray tracer You could probably port the BRL-CAD package (librt and the "rt" utility) without much trouble, as it's written in somewhat portable C. Contact Keith@BRL.MIL if you have a serious interest in obtaining the sources.
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (01/16/91)
In article <9101151552.AA17113@tortoise.cis.ohio-state.edu> meekins@CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (timothy lee meekins) writes: >>>A GS ray tracer >If you really want one, I could look into it. It's hard to deal with colors >on the GS though. I could have a ray-tracer running in no time, but trying >to actually quantize the colors properly would be a real pain; how about >a B&W ray tracer? That wouldn't problem at all. Before implementing something, it would be good to find out just what the intended use is. The reason I say this is that "ray tracing" need not result in images at all. We rely heavily upon ray-tracing of solid models here for computation having nothing to do with producing images. I think that, as you assumed, the fellow probably really wants some sort of "lighting model" program, not ray tracing as such.
SHBOUM@MACALSTR.EDU (01/16/91)
In an earlier message, Jonah Stich wrote > Scott Gentry is building a list of things people would like to see written. > If you can't get through to him, here are two to chew on: > > Mathematica GS Hey, Mathematica is an awesome program, and I'd love to see a GS version, but let it be known, that to the first person who does the translation, I will personally FLY out to that person and bow down and grovel at their feet for that programmer will be a devine entity. Because while the GS can handle the huge amount of RAM and disk space required, there is NO way that ANY 'C' compiler known for the IIGS is going to handle the over 180,000 (thats right ONE HUNDRED EIGHTY THOUSAND) lines of code that makes up Mathematica!!! Heheheheh. It even makes me laugh to think such a task is even remotely possible. Could you imagine how slow it would be on a 2.8Mhz IIGS!!! A 8Mhz or 10Mhz Ziped GS would be real nice though.... Well, the offer stands. But on the issue of new programs, I would like to see the following: 1) The previously mentioned sound program to continious record and playback... Plus a sound program that had no static!!! {Yea, get real...} 2) A 256 Color GIF Viewer (Being worked on as we speak) 3) A real 'C' Compiler 4) Multitasking or Multiprocessing abilities. 5) The Duet Card {Ok, so its not software, I still want it} 6) A CDA that has utilities like copy/rename files, view {and/or edit} a text file, edit file info, etc.} 7) a term program that has a packer built into it. 8) Any Good Fantasy/Role Playing Games such as Ultima VI... 9) An improved background sound player that didn't crash so much... Finally I'd like to give a special mention to the last one because I think it would be really nice feature to have and that is a DOS 3.3 FST for GS/OS. Hey, its part of the family, and many of us have used it for years. From my understandings of GS/OS, I believe it shouldn't be much of a problem... Plus I think we'd use it more because we'd have better access to it... Thats about it for now... | Hal Bouma | Working on a .sig! | Macalester College | | Mail to SHBOUM@MACALSTR.EDU | | H.BOUMA on GEnie |
jpenne@ee.ualberta.ca (Jerry Penner) (01/17/91)
In article <D394EDF9BD9F008714@MACALSTR.EDU> SHBOUM@MACALSTR.EDU writes: >In an earlier message, Jonah Stich wrote > >> Scott Gentry is building a list of things people would like to see written. >> If you can't get through to him, here are two to chew on: >> >> Mathematica GS > > Hey, Mathematica is an awesome program, and I'd love to see a GS >version, but let it be known, that to the first person who does the >translation, I will personally FLY out to that person and bow down and grovel >at their feet for that programmer will be a devine entity. Because while the GS >can handle the huge amount of RAM and disk space required, there is NO way that >ANY 'C' compiler known for the IIGS is going to handle the over 180,000 (thats >right ONE HUNDRED EIGHTY THOUSAND) lines of code that makes up Mathematica!!! Even if you compile each source file separately? The C compiler should be quite able to handle that. Assuming the libraries exist. The question is how many files can the Linker handle. I would think that would be the bottleneck. >Heheheheh. It even makes me laugh to think such a task is even remotely >possible. Could you imagine how slow it would be on a 2.8Mhz IIGS!!! A 8Mhz or >10Mhz Ziped GS would be real nice though.... Well, the offer stands. But on the >issue of new programs, I would like to see the following: > > 1) The previously mentioned sound program to continious record and > playback... Plus a sound program that had no static!!! {Yea, get > real...} What you need here from the start is PROPER sampling. That is, sampling at the correct rate and having the right anti-aliasing filter on your input. Sampling at 10 kHz with an input filter with a bandpass of 20 kHz is going to give your sounds lots of noise (aliasing). From the sounds of it (pun intended), lots of people are getting aliasing effects into their sampled sounds. > 2) A 256 Color GIF Viewer (Being worked on as we speak) > 3) A real 'C' Compiler I'd like a fast one, too. I personally think that Orca/C could be a LOT faster. I guess I'll know better after I complete my compiler course this term. > 4) Multitasking or Multiprocessing abilities. > 5) The Duet Card {Ok, so its not software, I still want it} > 6) A CDA that has utilities like copy/rename files, view {and/or edit} > a text file, edit file info, etc.} Ever seen the Consh Shell from Bill Gulstad (sp?). I saw it a long time ago on comp.binaries.apple2 and I believe it can do what you want. And there are others too. Anyone know more? Check the ftp sites. > 7) a term program that has a packer built into it. > 8) Any Good Fantasy/Role Playing Games such as Ultima VI... > 9) An improved background sound player that didn't crash so much... > > Finally I'd like to give a special mention to the last one because I >think it would be really nice feature to have and that is a DOS 3.3 FST for >GS/OS. Hey, its part of the family, and many of us have used it for years. From >my understandings of GS/OS, I believe it shouldn't be much of a problem... Plus >I think we'd use it more because we'd have better access to it... Thats about >it for now... I'd much rather have a SWIM chip card that let me read/write mac & msdos 1.44 meg disks and an HFS and MSDOS FST. I can use copy II plus or chameleon to xfer DOS 3.3 => ProDOS and plus I never use DOS 3.3 anymore. >| Hal Bouma | Working on a .sig! ^^^^ Please don't make a ten-liner. Keep it short & sweet. -- ------------- Jerry Penner alberta!bode!jpenne Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
rhyde@koufax.ucr.edu (randy hyde) (01/17/91)
I can't speak for most online services, but I find BIX to be extremely valuable. The people are nicer (and on the whole, considerably more intelligent) than the people here on internet. Furthermore, the technical level is much higher. There is much less noise on the system. It runs $20-$30 per month (which is probably beyond most student's budgets, I admit), but I find it well worth it. If I had to give up internet or BIX, I'd give up internet first. Internet is a great place to argue and make a fool of one's self, BIX is a great place to get technical answers.
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (01/17/91)
In article <D394EDF9BD9F008714@MACALSTR.EDU> SHBOUM@MACALSTR.EDU writes: >... there is NO way that ANY 'C' compiler known for the IIGS is going to >handle the over 180,000 (thats right ONE HUNDRED EIGHTY THOUSAND) lines >of code that makes up Mathematica!!! That's absurd. I have an application of comparable size that can be compiled without much trouble on my IIGS. (Since it relies on some UNIX-specific features, the result is not fully usable on the IIGS, but I've been using ORCA/C as yet another compilation environment just to further check the code's portability.) The real problem that I would foresee is that ORCA/C still has too many bugs, and undoubtedly some of them would interfere with correct compilation of Mathematica. By the way, I just got a copy of "GS Numerics", which while far short of Mathematica may nonetheless be of use to some of the same clientele.
llee@gnh-starport.cts.com (Larry Lee) (01/19/91)
" Hmm, I didn't know this was Apple's responsibility. There are several programs out that use 3200 mode, why don't you ask the people that programmed them? At last year's Apple II Developers conference in Kansas City, there were several sessions dealing with graphics, animation, sound, etc. A lot of useful info was provided and you can order the session tapes if you want from Resource-Central (publisher of A2-Central). > Any comments? Maybe I'm missing some fantastic Apple programmer magazine that > tells the nitty-gritty on programming stuff like the FTA demos... Check out 8-16 Central, a disk-based magazine available from Resource-Central. Personally, I think that the FTA demos were neat for viewing once, but not useful in any real way. " Okay, seveal things. One. Not Apple's responsibility? If they REALLY cared about this machine, they WOULD release such information. You DO know that Apple published a BOOK, a THICK BOOK about how to make DRIVERS and PERIPHERAL cards for the Mac. Do I see such a manual for the GS?? Or the II?? No. Two. There are "several programs" out right now that use 3200 colors? Like what? This I'm interested in, as I have only seen 3200-color picture VIEWERS. Three. The only reason why you think that FTA's demos are worth seeing once is because they have only made one utility. That's Photonix, and I think it's worth using. Unfortunately, I have a ROM 03, and I have not heard of a ROM 03 version of the program. There has been talk on this feed itself (well, not TOO much talk) as to why FTA is not releasing utilities. My own thought to that is that it's funner to program demos. "But why, dammit? Make utilities!" you say. As mentioned before, publishing costs are rather high, especially with having to import things into the U.S.. Also, I imagine they would like money for their utilities. Photonix is a prime example. I wonder how many people paid for that? | ProLine.: llee@gnh-starport | Millions long for immortality who | | UUCP....: crash!gnh-starport!llee | don't know what to do on a rainy | | InterNet: llee@gnh-starport.cts.com | Sunday afternoon. | | AO .....: Watch this space! | -- Susan Ertz |
mvk@itsgw.rpi.edu (Michael V. Kent) (01/20/91)
In article <m0ixFQI-00002fC@jartel.info.com> llee@gnh-starport.cts.com (Larry Lee) writes: > >Two. There are "several programs" out right now that use 3200 colors? Like >what? This I'm interested in, as I have only seen 3200-color picture VIEWERS. There are several programs which will let you convert from GIF to 3200-color. There are also several 3200-color paint programs on the market or nearly so. Dream Graphics was one which had demos floating around. I haven't heard much about this one lately and, considering they were having financial difficulties, it may now be defunct. However, check out the latest inCider. There was a 3200-color paint program advertised in the November issue. Sorry I can't re- member its name. > >Three. The only reason why you think that FTA's demos are worth seeing once is >because they have only made one utility. That's Photonix, and I think it's >worth using. Unfortunately, I have a ROM 03, and I have not heard of a ROM 03 >version of the program. There has been talk on this feed itself (well, not TOO >much talk) as to why FTA is not releasing utilities. My own thought to that is >that it's funner to program demos. "But why, dammit? Make utilities!" you say. >As mentioned before, publishing costs are rather high, especially with having >to import things into the U.S.. Also, I imagine they would like money for their >utilities. Photonix is a prime example. I wonder how many people paid for that? > FTA demos are VERY useful for at least one thing: improving the GS's reputation. Even among Apple (excuse me, Macintosh) dealers, the Apple II comes in just behind a toaster in capability. These demos will wake some people up. Just last night someone walked into my room and said, "Wow, is that the new Mac II?" "No, it's an Apple II." "I didn't think it could do anything like THAT!" If you haven't done so already, take their demos down to your local Apple dealer and show them. Then talk to them about what software they should be stocking on their shelves. Several dealers have told me that while the LC is nice, but they need something much less expensive. The GS fits the bill, with the proper software.
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (01/20/91)
In article <P'5^3-#@rpi.edu> mvk@itsgw.rpi.edu (Michael V. Kent) writes: >If you haven't done so already, take their demos down to your local Apple >dealer and show them. Better yet, do what I do and leave them a copy.
stc7@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Steven T Chiang) (01/21/91)
In article <P'5^3-#@rpi.edu> mvk@itsgw.rpi.edu (Michael V. Kent) writes: >There are several programs which will let you convert from GIF to 3200-color. >There are also several 3200-color paint programs on the market or nearly so. >Dream Graphics was one which had demos floating around. I haven't heard much >about this one lately and, considering they were having financial difficulties No, this isn't true. DreamGrafix is by no means dead, and neither is DreamWorld Software. We have been sending out copies to those who wish to purchase in advance, before the final product is finished, with the promise of final versions when they are done. Currently, we are about 2/3's of the way finished. We are expecting to finish the program by the beginning of March. >it may now be defunct. However, check out the latest inCider. There was a >3200-color paint program advertised in the November issue. Sorry I can't re- >member its name. You must be thinking of Emerald Visions. Now, I know this will be biased, but here goes anyway. :) Emerald Visions is not shipping as of now. It has been advertised for months, without a real product. The program was supposed to be done on Jan. 15, and it may or may not be. The version at 'Fest was very crude at best. When you draw, with anything, the screen flips to a single palette, probably palette 0, and the screen turns to garbage, then you draw, and then the screen flips back. The program isn't using standard tools, like the window manager, menu manager, etc, so it is quick, but on the other hand, it doesn't use the print manager, or standard file dialog, which means you won't be able to use the Harmony or Independence drivers from Vitesse and Seven Hills, or any other print drivers that come out in the future. The program doesn't capitalize on many of the nice features of the system software. Also, from the menus, the program won't have many of the brush, color, and other features. Plus the program will only be a 3200 color paint program, which leaves out 16 and 256 color pictures. Finally, there wasn't a fatbits, so I don't know how anyone with an detail with it. Oh yeah, and the price for Emerald Visions is significantly higher than for DreamGrafix, list for each is $99 and $55 respectively.... At this time, I'm not going to post the features of DreamGrafix, unless somebody wants to know about them. I will say this, DG has a FULL 3200 color editor, working with all of the tools, lines, boxes, circles, etc., plus a full 3200 color fatbits, which I will guarantee will blow away Emerald Visions. Completely compatible with TransWarp GS, Zip GS If you want more information about DreamGrafix, leave me email, otherwise, I'll shut up for now... _______________________________________________ _______________ | Steve Chiang Apple //gs forever | Coming Soon: | |-----------------------------------------------|---------------| | Internet : stc7@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | DreamGrafix | | America_Online : DWS Steve | 3200 power | |_______________________________________________|_______________|
dzimmerman@gnh-tff.cts.com (Daniel Zimmerman) (01/24/91)
>> There is no way any 'C' compiler on the Apple IIGS can handle the 180,000 >> lines of code that make up Mathematica.... (paraphrased... :) Well, see, if someone were to port this program to the Apple IIGS, they wouldn't have to compile the whole thing in one shot... First of all, with enough memory, ORCA/C could handle an infinite number of lines... Not only that, but it's completely ANSI C compatible, as well... But, see, on the IIGS, you take advantage of the System Loader and write things in SEGMENTS... If you compile each segment seperately (not fun, but it works - not that compiling the whole thing at once wouldn't, with ORCA/C 1.1, as far as I know), you don't need to worry about the 180,000 lines of code... As for the "slowness factor", if the program's written well, it won't be as s....l....o....w as you make it sound... An accelerated machine does help for that, and any serious users of a program that is so CPU-intensive that it is that incredibly slow will most probably have an accelerator anyway. (donning fireproof suit ;) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Daniel M. Zimmerman InterNet - dzimmerman@gnh-tff.cts.com TFF Enterprises America Online - Surak TFF CompuServe - 76407,2246 "Learn reason above all. Learn clear thought; learn to know what is from what seems to be, and what you wish to be. This is the key to everything: the truth of reality, the reality of truth. What IS will set you free." - Surak Of Vulcan
llee@gnh-starport.cts.com (Larry Lee) (01/24/91)
" There IS a book on writing GS/OS device drivers, available from APDA at the moment (probably Addison-Wesley later). There isn't any feasible ways to add device drivers for ProDOS or DOS 3.3. Apple II bus peripheral interfaces ARE described in the Apple II hardware manuals. Apple used to even sell blank printed-circuit cards for breadboarding your own. " Available from APDA, but not in bookstores. Hmmm. Keeping something APDA-specific seems to be just like HIDING the material from people who don't know that it exists. | ProLine.: llee@gnh-starport | This isn't a "blood for oil" deal. | | UUCP....: crash!gnh-starport!llee | This is "blood to keep some damn | | InterNet: llee@gnh-starport.cts.com | madman from doing things that | | AO .....: Please hold... | aren't hip in the world anymore." | | | And there hasn't been much blood. |
llee@gnh-starport.cts.com (Larry Lee) (01/24/91)
" FTA demos are VERY useful for at least one thing: improving the GS's reputation. Even among Apple (excuse me, Macintosh) dealers, the Apple II comes in just behind a toaster in capability. These demos will wake some people up. Just last night someone walked into my room and said, "Wow, is that the new Mac II?" "No, it's an Apple II." "I didn't think it could do anything like THAT!" If you haven't done so already, take their demos down to your local Apple dealer and show them. Then talk to them about what software they should be stocking on their shelves. Several dealers have told me that while the LC is nice, but they need something much less expensive. The GS fits the bill, with the proper software. " I was actually considering doing that, taking in FTA demos into dealerships, but I've got this eerie feeling that they won't allow it on their machines because they're scared of a "virus" or something. I'll have to consider doing that this weekend, though! | ProLine.: llee@gnh-starport | This isn't a "blood for oil" deal. | | UUCP....: crash!gnh-starport!llee | This is "blood to keep some damn | | InterNet: llee@gnh-starport.cts.com | madman from doing things that | | AO .....: Please hold... | aren't hip in the world anymore." | | | And there hasn't been much blood. |
toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) (01/25/91)
llee@gnh-starport.cts.com (Larry Lee) writes: >" >There IS a book on writing GS/OS device drivers, available from APDA >at the moment (probably Addison-Wesley later). There isn't any feasible >ways to add device drivers for ProDOS or DOS 3.3. ... >" ProDOS can accept new block devices -- it checks the slots for them every time it starts up. Adding arbitrary devices is a lot tougher since you have to find uncontested memory to put the driver in, and ProDOS only understands the concept of a block device. >Available from APDA, but not in bookstores. Hmmm. Keeping something >APDA-specific seems to be just like HIDING the material from people who don't >know that it exists. Give Apple a break. Products available only through APDA are either unfinished (as is the case with the GS/OS driver reference) or will never be fit for public release (i.e. experimental stuff). All the GS and Mac programming books are available only from APDA when they are in alpha or beta draft, and are published by Addison-Wesley (usually) when they are completed. Beta drafts are basically stacks of photocopies with three holes punched in them -- you put them in a three ring binder. I have binder versions of both GS/OS references, and the published version of volume 1 now that it is finished. Todd Whitesel toddpw @ tybalt.caltech.edu
ifar355@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (David H. Huang) (01/25/91)
In article <m0iz7de-00006UC@jartel.info.com> llee@gnh-starport.cts.com (Larry Lee) writes: |" |There IS a book on writing GS/OS device drivers, available from APDA |at the moment (probably Addison-Wesley later). There isn't any feasible |ways to add device drivers for ProDOS or DOS 3.3. | |Apple II bus peripheral interfaces ARE described in the Apple II hardware |manuals. Apple used to even sell blank printed-circuit cards for |breadboarding your own. |" | |Available from APDA, but not in bookstores. Hmmm. Keeping something |APDA-specific seems to be just like HIDING the material from people who don't |know that it exists. Todd Whitesel said that it showed up at his school's bookstore, so it seems that it's available from Addison-Wesley now. -- David Huang | Internet: ifar355@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu | "My ganglion is stuck in UUCP: ...!ut-emx!ccwf.cc.utexas.edu!ifar355 | a piece of chewing gum!" America Online: DrWho29 |
q4kx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (Joel Sumner) (01/25/91)
In article <m0iz7de-00006UC@jartel.info.com>, llee@gnh-starport.cts.com (Larry Lee) writes: > " [Stuff about GS/OS driver manual deleted] > > Available from APDA, but not in bookstores. Hmmm. Keeping something > APDA-specific seems to be just like HIDING the material from people who don't > know that it exists. > I think 'hiding' is a little extreme. If you are so gung ho into programming (you must be if you want to write a driver), then you should be a member of APDA. It is only $20/year and you have access to all sorts of things that WILL NEVER be published such as GSBug software, rez, etc.. You can also get beta drafts (Even thought you should buy the actual ones when they come or Matt D will have your head). Here is the entry for the driver "NEW Apple IIgs GS/OS Device Driver Reference Apple Computer, Inc. Class 1 * Describes how to write GS/OS device drivers * Describes how to make device-specific calls for existing GS/OS drivers This reference describes the GS/OS application interface to device drivers and describes all device-specific calls. It contains detailed descriptions of how to interact with the following GS/OS drivers: the SCSI driver, the AppleDisk 3.5 driver, the UniDisk 3.5 driver, the AppleDisk 5.25 driver, AppleTalk drivers, and GS/OS generated drivers. This reference also shows how to design and write drivers for hardware devices you may want to use with the AppleIIgs. This reference replaces the beta draft of GS/OS Reference, Vol 2. Purchasers of that interim draft should also buy the GS/OS Device Driver Reference to ensure they have the latest technical information available to them. (Approx 300 pages) A0008LL/C $35.00 " Well, there you have it. You must be an APDA member to purchase it. I won't say that APDA is a great deal, but it is your only channel for stuff like this.... -- Joel Sumner GENIE:JOEL.SUMNER This .sig may not be used q4kx@cornella.ccs.cornell.edu q4kx@cornella for public viewing or q4kx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu q4kx@crnlvax5 rebroadcast without the .................................................... express written consent The impedance of absolutely nothing is 377 ohms. of major league baseball.
toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) (01/25/91)
q4kx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (Joel Sumner) writes: >Apple IIgs GS/OS Device Driver Reference >Apple Computer, Inc. Class 1 ... >This reference replaces the beta draft of GS/OS Reference, Vol 2. >Well, there you have it. You must be an APDA member to purchase it. Class 1 means it's in final form. It's on its way to Addison-Wesley by now. Call 1-800-282-2732 (that's APDA's main phone number), I believe you can order it with a credit card and have it shipped (they call this Developer Tools Express, and you do not need to be an APDA member) as soon as printed copies of the final book are ready. Ask them; I forget exactly how DTE works. It's in the catalog. Todd Whitesel toddpw @ tybalt.caltech.edu
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (01/26/91)
In article <7175@crash.cts.com> dzimmerman@gnh-tff.cts.com (Daniel Zimmerman) writes: >... ORCA/C ... it's completely ANSI C compatible ... No, that's a common misconception. Certainly ORCA/C tries to be a conforming implementation, but it falls short on a number of counts, most notably in preprocessing, type qualifiers, and the library. I assume these will be addressed for future releases.
jpenne@ee.ualberta.ca (Jerry Penner) (01/26/91)
In article <14979@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes: >In article <7175@crash.cts.com> dzimmerman@gnh-tff.cts.com (Daniel Zimmerman) writes: >>... ORCA/C ... it's completely ANSI C compatible ... > >No, that's a common misconception. Certainly ORCA/C tries to be a conforming >implementation, but it falls short on a number of counts, most notably in >preprocessing, type qualifiers, and the library. I assume these will be >addressed for future releases. Well, can someone who knows all the libraries Orca/C should support please inform the rest of us. I haven't tried to port a lot of stuff to orca from unix because I haven't had hardly anytime since November when I got it. But I'd like to know about these libraries because maybe I could write some of them and we'd all be the better for it. -- ------------- Jerry Penner alberta!bode!jpenne Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (01/27/91)
In article <1991Jan25.233114.17861@ee.ualberta.ca> jpenne@ee.ualberta.ca (Jerry Penner) writes: >Well, can someone who knows all the libraries Orca/C should support >please inform the rest of us. I haven't tried to port a lot of stuff >to orca from unix because I haven't had hardly anytime since November >when I got it. But I'd like to know about these libraries because maybe >I could write some of them and we'd all be the better for it. I don't have a complete list at hand, but certainly none of the multibyte support is present, not that many people in "Western" countries would care. A more serious lack is vprintf(), vfprintf(), and vsprintf(). Somebody posted the binary for hos own implementation of the latter to AOL, but I haven't tested it. From time to time I encounter other missing standard functions. The external name space antipollution requirements of the C standard are also violated by ORCA/C 1.1; if you are unfortunate in the choice of names for your external functions or data, you can get an unpleasant surprise. <assert.h> also has several deficiencies, such as not supporting multiple inclusion with differing predefinitions of NDEBUG. The only way I know of to get a complete list of conformance failures would be to run a good C test suite (e.g. Plum Hall's); neither I nor (apparently) ByteWorks feels that we can afford to license such a suite.
llee@gnh-starport.cts.com (Larry Lee) (01/30/91)
" llee@gnh-starport.cts.com (Larry Lee) writes: >" >There IS a book on writing GS/OS device drivers, available from APDA >at the moment (probably Addison-Wesley later). There isn't any feasible >ways to add device drivers for ProDOS or DOS 3.3. ... >" " =I= did not say that myself. GEt it together. | ProLine.: llee@gnh-starport | | | UUCP....: crash!gnh-starport!llee | Yo Vanilla kick it one time, | | InterNet: llee@gnh-starport.cts.com | boooooyyyyyyyyy.... | | AO .....: Please hold... | |
avery@netcom.UUCP (Avery Colter) (02/04/91)
Unknown writes: >>* A modem >>* An AOL account >Oh comon! This guy is already on USENET and has INTERNET access >(either direct FTP or to some that have mail "servers" or whatever they're >called). There are not very many public access Unix sites which have full Internet access. Most of these sites operate on UUCP, and one has to go through a long tortuous procedure in order to even ATTEMPT to locate and download files from another machine than one's own. Netcom's one of the lucky ones, we will be getting full Internet access soon. But in general only people working at companies possessed of such machines will have the full access. Mail servers can be done, but it takes days sometimes to find a listing of the programs on the target machine, it takes a few more days to actually get it to mail the things to you, it has to be done uuencoded more than likely... the whole thing is a bloody mess. >Wasting money on one of those pay services seems dumb! I will >admit that I haven't used any of those services for more than a minute or >two on demos, but I can't IMAGINE how anything can be better than >InterNet/UseNet! (UNIX too!) Either FREE (Univ students/employees of big >companies) or VERY cheap ($10/month Portal accounts! If portal isn't >countrywide, there are probably other systems or even "regular" BBSes that >have InterNet access). Portal DOES NOT have full Internet access, and the way they are set up they never will, because they do not allow shell access and they set up like a BBS. As for a regular BBS having Internet access, that's like asking a Timex Sinclair to run Fido! Only a Unix system could hope to handle full status. There are micros which can do this, but these are the top of their respective lines (386sx and up, Amiga 3000, second generation Macintosh, NeXT, Sun Workstation, etc). AOL is about $5 an hour. Yes, it's not as cheap as Internet, but for someone not so fortunate as to know where an Internet Pubnet is, there's precious little choice. And even if you do know where it is, it might be long distance for you, which adds up to the exact same cost. Unless the site is reachable by PC Pursuit and you have a Telenet node near you, in which case you can add either $30 or $50 a month to that cheap little $10 you speculate. >* A subscription to 8/16-Central Well this one is probably pretty good.. GS+ would be good too. I have GS+, I haven't checked out 8/16 yet. >* A GEnie account if you still have some money left. SAME reply as for AOL. Except, of course, for the fact that AOL is not owned by the nation's premiere advocate of nuclear overarmament. In regard to using the tools, it would seem to me that one could very easily make hybrid programs with Orca/C or other compilers, using the toolbox where it does its best work, requesting space from the Memory Manager (either by direct call or by malloc) in which to load metal code routines, and then run the metal code routines when they are needed. This puts the metal code in a nice safe place compatible with the rest of a tool-using program, while that piece of code itself can operate without any use of tools whatever. All you'd really need to do is pass whatever critical locations you need as parameters to the metal code. -- Avery Ray Colter {apple|claris}!netcom!avery {decwrl|mips|sgi}!btr!elfcat (415) 839-4567 "I feel love has got to come on and I want it: Something big and lovely!" - The B-52s, "Channel Z"
lwv27@CAS.BITNET (02/05/91)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2 In-Reply-To: <22709 of netcom.UUCP> at bitnet Reply-To: Larry W. Virden <osu-cis!chemabs!lwv27> Organization: Nedriv Software and Shoe Shiners, Uninc. Another good reason for the pay services is that there is much more software available there than on Internet. I would guess that less that 30% of the files uploaded to AOL/CIS/Genie ever make it to Internet. On the other hand, probably more than 70% of the files first posted to Internet make it to the services. The odds of one finding what one wants is much higher on a info service than on Internet. One other reason is that one has a much greater chance of discussing things with the authors of the most frequently used games, utilities, etc. on one of the pay services than of finding them posting here on comp.sys.apple2. This group is great for discussing things with lots of different folks, but you for instance no longer find Jason Harper here, never encountered Glen Bredon here, won't see Roger Wagner here, and seldom see the folks from Beagle Brothers. On the other hand, when I had the $$, I talked to these folks all the time on Compuserve. -- Larry W. Virden UUCP: osu-cis!chemabs!lwv27 Same Mbox: BITNET: lwv27@cas INET: lwv27%cas.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.Edu Personal: 674 Falls Place, Reynoldsburg,OH 43068-1614 America Online: lvirden