neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) (01/20/91)
Can anybody provide me with the name of an FTPable program which can
reorder GS/OS directories? I'll be getting ProSel soon, can it do that?
I'd like to optimize boot sequences by putting the relevant programs
near to the beginning of the directory, and to alphabetize directories
so that it's easier to find things from the Finder (yes, I know I can
view by filename, I'd rather not).
Thanks.
--
Christopher Neufeld....Just a graduate student | "Shtarker! Zis is KAOS!
neufeld@helios.physics.utoronto.ca Ad astra! | Vee do not 'yippee yo
cneufeld@{pnet91,pro-cco}.cts.com | kye aye' here!"
"Don't edit reality for the sake of simplicity" | Siegfried of KAOSgwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (01/20/91)
In article <1991Jan19.113613.14192@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) writes: > Can anybody provide me with the name of an FTPable program which can >reorder GS/OS directories? The simplest way to do this is to move everything out of the directory, then move them back in in the order that you want.
neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) (01/21/91)
In article <14910@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes: >In article <1991Jan19.113613.14192@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) writes: >> Can anybody provide me with the name of an FTPable program which can >>reorder GS/OS directories? > >The simplest way to do this is to move everything out of the directory, >then move them back in in the order that you want. Oh boy, wouldn't this be fun! I just spent a full day transferring files to my new cartridge drive, and then after the whole thing was finished I decided I wanted to make it boot into ProDOS8, with a BASIC program which could run the system disk file originally named "PRODOS" to launch the Finder. Now, that file, "PRODOS2" is at the end of the 20+ files catalog. Not only does this slow the boot down imperceptibly, but the new BYE routine in ProDOS8 doesn't let you wrap around the top and bottom of the list, so selecting that program takes some time while I arrow down the whole list. So, move everything out of the root directory of my 45MB drive (70% full) and copy them back, one by one? Don't forget that the subdirectories are more or less ordered the way I want them, so I could find myself copying individual files through the Finder until next May. The Finder makes no effort to preserve the order of files inside subdirectories when the subdirectory is being copied. Thanks, but I'll buy ProSel-16 and do it the easy way. -- Christopher Neufeld....Just a graduate student | "Shtarker! Zis is KAOS! neufeld@helios.physics.utoronto.ca Ad astra! | Vee do not 'yippee yo cneufeld@{pnet91,pro-cco}.cts.com | kye aye' here!" "Don't edit reality for the sake of simplicity" | Siegfried of KAOS
AABENSON@MTUS5.BITNET (01/21/91)
Copy II Plus with alphabetize them for you, but DON'T USE IT, as it will also
trash your directory. It forgets to fix the links from block to block.
- Andrew.
(aabenson@balance.cs.mtu.edu or aabenson@mtu.edu)gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (01/22/91)
In article <1991Jan20.123020.26408@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) writes: >In article <14910@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes: >>In article <1991Jan19.113613.14192@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) writes: >>> Can anybody provide me with the name of an FTPable program which can >>>reorder GS/OS directories? >>The simplest way to do this is to move everything out of the directory, >>then move them back in in the order that you want. >... So, move everything out of the root directory >of my 45MB drive (70% full) and copy them back, one by one? No, in fact the recommended procedure is so simple that I wonder why you don't see how to do it. Make a NEW subdirectory, move everything in one fell swoop to that (trivial using the Finder), open the subdirectory folder, move everything that you are particularly concerned about back to the root in the desired order, then move the rest all at once. If it takes you more than one minute you're doing something horribly wrong.
jpenne@ee.ualberta.ca (Jerry Penner) (01/23/91)
In article <14925@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes: >In article <1991Jan20.123020.26408@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) writes: >>In article <14910@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes: >>>In article <1991Jan19.113613.14192@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) writes: >>>> Can anybody provide me with the name of an FTPable program which can >>>>reorder GS/OS directories? >>>The simplest way to do this is to move everything out of the directory, >>>then move them back in in the order that you want. >>... So, move everything out of the root directory >>of my 45MB drive (70% full) and copy them back, one by one? > >No, in fact the recommended procedure is so simple that I wonder why >you don't see how to do it. Make a NEW subdirectory, move everything >in one fell swoop to that (trivial using the Finder), open the >subdirectory folder, move everything that you are particularly >concerned about back to the root in the desired order, then move the >rest all at once. If it takes you more than one minute you're doing >something horribly wrong. Ack! What a horrible way to do it. Not everyone is going to have the Orca Shell (the text one) but it has a command to swap two directory entries (as well as a command to sort directories). The problem with copying files is that if you have lots (>100) files,it is going to take over a minutes if you need a bunch of things in specific orders. What we need (and I don't think it exists, unless Prosel can do it (and I don't have prosel and have never seen it)) is a program that lets you do arbitrary file swaps. On ANY size directory. -- ------------- Jerry Penner alberta!bode!jpenne Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bazyar@ernie (Jawaid Bazyar) (01/23/91)
In article <1991Jan23.051226.28901@ee.ualberta.ca> jpenne@ee.ualberta.ca (Jerry Penner) writes: >The problem with copying files is that if you have lots (>100) files,it >is going to take over a minutes if you need a bunch of things in specific >orders. What we need (and I don't think it exists, unless Prosel can do >it (and I don't have prosel and have never seen it)) is a program >that lets you do arbitrary file swaps. On ANY size directory. Note that Doug said "move" not "copy". Moving a file with the finder to a different directory on the same disk takes a minimal amount of time- only the directory entry is messed with, not the file. -- Jawaid Bazyar | Girl don't stop the screamin', Senior/Computer Engineering | you're sounding so sincere bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu | There's so much beauty Apple II Forever! | in the tracks of your tears (BOC)
neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) (01/24/91)
In article <14925@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes: >In article <1991Jan20.123020.26408@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) writes: >>In article <14910@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes: >>>In article <1991Jan19.113613.14192@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) writes: >>>> Can anybody provide me with the name of an FTPable program which can >>>>reorder GS/OS directories? >>>The simplest way to do this is to move everything out of the directory, >>>then move them back in in the order that you want. >>... So, move everything out of the root directory >>of my 45MB drive (70% full) and copy them back, one by one? > >No, in fact the recommended procedure is so simple that I wonder why >you don't see how to do it. Make a NEW subdirectory, move everything >in one fell swoop to that (trivial using the Finder), open the >subdirectory folder, move everything that you are particularly >concerned about back to the root in the desired order, then move the >rest all at once. If it takes you more than one minute you're doing >something horribly wrong. Well, it's not that easy. Actually, if the ORCA/C shell can handle forked files, I can copy files with it. One example of a folder with files which I would want to have ordered properly is my Fonts folder, and there are over a hundred files in it alone. The Finder doesn't preserve the order of files when copying, so copying the fonts folder with it would scramble the order. It can be done, but it will take considerably longer than a minute. Even after moving the system files, I need two new spaces between the system files and the application folders. The first two application folders go several subdirectories deep, and are already ordered properly. I'd have to copy them file by file. Anyway, it's not critical at the moment, just annoying, to have the files out of order. I need ProSel anyway, and the procedure you describe would take considerably more than a minute. ORCA/C has a command to reorder directories, but it doesn't work on hard disks, only on disks formatted with the ProDOS FST. I tried it, it works on a 5"1/4 or 3"1/2 floppy, but not on my hard drive. -- Christopher Neufeld....Just a graduate student | "Shtarker! Zis is KAOS! neufeld@helios.physics.utoronto.ca Ad astra! | Vee do not 'yippee yo cneufeld@{pnet91,pro-cco}.cts.com | kye aye' here!" "Don't edit reality for the sake of simplicity" | Siegfried of KAOS
neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) (01/24/91)
In article <1991Jan23.064003.591@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu (Jawaid Bazyar) writes: >In article <1991Jan23.051226.28901@ee.ualberta.ca> jpenne@ee.ualberta.ca (Jerry Penner) writes: > >>The problem with copying files is that if you have lots (>100) files,it >>is going to take over a minutes if you need a bunch of things in specific >>orders. What we need (and I don't think it exists, unless Prosel can do >>it (and I don't have prosel and have never seen it)) is a program >>that lets you do arbitrary file swaps. On ANY size directory. > > Note that Doug said "move" not "copy". Moving a file with the finder >to a different directory on the same disk takes a minimal amount of time- >only the directory entry is messed with, not the file. > Aagh, you're right. I forgot about that feature. Sorry, Doug, I take back my objection. >Jawaid Bazyar | Girl don't stop the screamin', >bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu | There's so much beauty -- Christopher Neufeld....Just a graduate student | "Shtarker! Zis is KAOS! neufeld@helios.physics.utoronto.ca Ad astra! | Vee do not 'yippee yo cneufeld@{pnet91,pro-cco}.cts.com | kye aye' here!" "Don't edit reality for the sake of simplicity" | Siegfried of KAOS
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (01/24/91)
In article <1991Jan23.051226.28901@ee.ualberta.ca> jpenne@ee.ualberta.ca (Jerry Penner) writes: >The problem with copying files is that if you have lots (>100) files,it >is going to take over a minutes if you need a bunch of things in specific >orders. I suggested MOVING the files, not COPYING them. Using the Finder, this is a trivial operation that doesn't take very long even for dozens of files. The time you have to take to specify the desired ordering when you restore the files to the original directory will be similar no matter what approach you use. I've actually done this myself; it really is not very much of a hassle.
phs172m@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (Stephen Harker) (01/24/91)
In article <1991Jan23.122800.6390@helios.physics.utoronto.ca>, neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) writes: > ORCA/C has a command to reorder directories, but it doesn't work on > hard disks, only on disks formatted with the ProDOS FST. I tried it, it > works on a 5"1/4 or 3"1/2 floppy, but not on my hard drive. > Actually the ORCA shell command to reorder directories works on any disk, it just won't work on your boot disk (the system has a file open always). So if you want to use this command on a hard disk just boot from a floppy! Works like a dream. -- Stephen Harker phs172m@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au Monash University
ifar355@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (David H. Huang) (01/25/91)
In article <1991Jan23.122800.6390@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) writes: > ORCA/C has a command to reorder directories, but it doesn't work on >hard disks, only on disks formatted with the ProDOS FST. I tried it, it >works on a 5"1/4 or 3"1/2 floppy, but not on my hard drive. Gee, how do you have your hard disk formatted? With the HFS FST? :-) There are only 4 FSTs right now, ProDOS, Character, AppleShare and High Sierra. Character and High Sierra won't work on a HD, and AppleShare is for file servers (currently for Macs only, I think). So, I'm almost positive your HD is formatted with the Prodos FST. >-- > Christopher Neufeld....Just a graduate student | "Shtarker! Zis is KAOS! > neufeld@helios.physics.utoronto.ca Ad astra! | Vee do not 'yippee yo > cneufeld@{pnet91,pro-cco}.cts.com | kye aye' here!" > "Don't edit reality for the sake of simplicity" | Siegfried of KAOS -- David Huang | Internet: ifar355@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu | "My ganglion is stuck in UUCP: ...!ut-emx!ccwf.cc.utexas.edu!ifar355 | a piece of chewing gum!" America Online: DrWho29 |
rhood@pro-gsplus.cts.com (Robert Hood) (01/25/91)
In-Reply-To: message from neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca Re: rearranging ProDOS directories Nibble magazine published a "directory designer" that does just this task. As I recall, Copy II Plus 9.0 can also manage this. If those programs elude you, it should be fairly (!) simple to load a directory into memory and manually shift the entries. After all, the entries are of fixed length and start at fixed locations.... ---- ProLine: rhood@pro-gsplus Internet: rhood@pro-gsplus.cts.com UUCP: crash!pro-gsplus!rhood ARPA: crash!pro-gsplus!rhood@nosc.mil
daveh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (David H. Huang) (01/25/91)
In article <7201@crash.cts.com> rhood@pro-gsplus.cts.com (Robert Hood) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca > >Re: rearranging ProDOS directories > >Nibble magazine published a "directory designer" that does just this task. As >I recall, Copy II Plus 9.0 can also manage this. If those programs elude you, >it should be fairly (!) simple to load a directory into memory and manually >shift the entries. After all, the entries are of fixed length and start at >fixed locations.... BTW, was the original poster wanting to reorder the directory entries or reorder the files themselves? I thought that I remembered him(her?) saying that it took a long time to boot up since the boot files were at the end of the cartridge, and the head had to seek around a lot. Doing something like this would require more than rearranging directory entries. Norton Speed Disk does this on the IBM's (and Macs too?). Does anyone know if BeachComber in ProSel does this? >---- >ProLine: rhood@pro-gsplus >Internet: rhood@pro-gsplus.cts.com >UUCP: crash!pro-gsplus!rhood >ARPA: crash!pro-gsplus!rhood@nosc.mil -- David Huang | Internet: ifar355@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu | "My ganglion is stuck in UUCP: ...!ut-emx!ccwf.cc.utexas.edu!ifar355 | a piece of chewing gum!" America Online: DrWho29 |
neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) (01/25/91)
In article <43109@ut-emx.uucp> ifar355@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (David H. Huang) writes: >In article <1991Jan23.122800.6390@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) writes: >> ORCA/C has a command to reorder directories, but it doesn't work on >>hard disks, only on disks formatted with the ProDOS FST. I tried it, it >>works on a 5"1/4 or 3"1/2 floppy, but not on my hard drive. > >Gee, how do you have your hard disk formatted? With the HFS FST? :-) >There are only 4 FSTs right now, ProDOS, Character, AppleShare and High >Sierra. Character and High Sierra won't work on a HD, and AppleShare is for >file servers (currently for Macs only, I think). So, I'm almost positive >your HD is formatted with the Prodos FST. > I had a sneaky feeling I'd be putting my foot in my mouth with this one. The logic I used was, ORCA says I can't change the directory, manual warns that it only works with ProDOS FST, therefore my directory isn't initialized with the ProDOS FST, Q.E.D. I heard through e-mail, though, that the ORCA command won't work on active directories, either, and so you'd have to boot off a floppy to change the order of files in some of the directories. >David Huang | >Internet: ifar355@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu | "My ganglion is stuck in -- Christopher Neufeld....Just a graduate student | "Shtarker! Zis is KAOS! neufeld@helios.physics.utoronto.ca Ad astra! | Vee do not 'yippee yo cneufeld@{pnet91,pro-cco}.cts.com | kye aye' here!" "Don't edit reality for the sake of simplicity" | Siegfried of KAOS
daveh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (David H. Huang) (01/26/91)
In article <1991Jan25.104821.5870@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) writes: |In article <43109@ut-emx.uucp> ifar355@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (David H. Huang) writes: |>In article <1991Jan23.122800.6390@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> neufeld@physics.utoronto.ca (Christopher Neufeld) writes: |>> ORCA/C has a command to reorder directories, but it doesn't work on |>>hard disks, only on disks formatted with the ProDOS FST. I tried it, it |>>works on a 5"1/4 or 3"1/2 floppy, but not on my hard drive. |> |>Gee, how do you have your hard disk formatted? With the HFS FST? :-) |>There are only 4 FSTs right now, ProDOS, Character, AppleShare and High |>Sierra. Character and High Sierra won't work on a HD, and AppleShare is for |>file servers (currently for Macs only, I think). So, I'm almost positive |>your HD is formatted with the Prodos FST. |> | I had a sneaky feeling I'd be putting my foot in my mouth with this |one. The logic I used was, ORCA says I can't change the directory, |manual warns that it only works with ProDOS FST, therefore my directory |isn't initialized with the ProDOS FST, Q.E.D. | I heard through e-mail, though, that the ORCA command won't work on |active directories, either, and so you'd have to boot off a floppy to |change the order of files in some of the directories. Ah,I see... Well, it won't work off the disk you booted off of since some files remain open and GS/OS won't let you do a block write on a device that has open files. So you would have to boot off of another disk and then run orca's directory arranger thing. > Christopher Neufeld....Just a graduate student | "Shtarker! Zis is KAOS! > neufeld@helios.physics.utoronto.ca Ad astra! | Vee do not 'yippee yo > cneufeld@{pnet91,pro-cco}.cts.com | kye aye' here!" > "Don't edit reality for the sake of simplicity" | Siegfried of KAOS -- David Huang | Internet: daveh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu | "My ganglion is stuck in UUCP: ...!ut-emx!ccwf.cc.utexas.edu!daveh | a piece of chewing gum!" America Online: DrWho29 |
knauer@cs.uiuc.edu (Rob Knauerhase) (01/26/91)
In article <43152@ut-emx.uucp> daveh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (David H. Huang) writes: >In article <7201@crash.cts.com> rhood@pro-gsplus.cts.com (Robert Hood) writes: >BTW, was the original poster wanting to reorder the directory entries or >reorder the files themselves? I thought that I remembered him(her?) saying >that it took a long time to boot up since the boot files were at the end >of the cartridge, and the head had to seek around a lot. >Doing something like this would require more than rearranging directory >entries. Norton Speed Disk does this on the IBM's (and Macs too?). Does anyone >know if BeachComber in ProSel does this? Well, the Utilties section offers directory re-ordering, sorting by name/type/etc. or individually. "Optimize Volume" (ne'e BeachComber) moves around whole files to reduce fragmentation and improve access time. [Was it I that said "Enough of this"?!? Oops. :) ] Rob Knauerhase -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Robert C. Knauerhase "Since the day the Apple III (RIP) was introduced U of Ill @ Urbana-Champaign in 1980, the 'experts' have been saying the Apple Dept. of Computer Science II is a dead machine. If the Apple III couldn't knauer@cs.uiuc.edu kill it, the Lisa (RIP) or the PC Jr. (RIP) or the rck@ces.cwru.edu 128K Mac (RIP) would. Some people never learn." knauer@scivax.lerc.nasa.gov -- Tom Weishaar
taob@pnet91.cts.com (Brian Tao) (01/26/91)
> The problem with copying files is that if you have lots (>100) files, > it is going to take over a minutes if you need a bunch of things in > specific orders. What we need (and I don't think it exists, unless > Prosel can do it (and I don't have prosel and have never seen it)) is > a program that lets you do arbitrary file swaps. On ANY size directory. ProSel-16 Utilities will do all that easily. The upper limit is around 700 files in a folder, I think. I have successfully sorted my Fonts folder (with 385 files) without any problem, and it takes only a few seconds. You can select one of the default sorting orders (alpha, date/time, type, etc.) and then you can individually move files up and down using the OA-arrow keys. Brian T. Tao {taob@pnet91.cts.com} || Computer guru? Someone who got University of Metro Toronto || their computer a couple of weeks Scarberia, ON, MIC 3A8 *B-) || before you did. (Alvin Toffler)
dave@mystie.rtp.dg.com (David Kopper) (01/27/91)
The real reason that Orca can't reorganize all directories is
that GS/OS prevents block I/O requests to a volume that
has an open file somewhere on it. On the boot volume
the file that is open is */System/System.Setup/Sys.Resources
which is opened by the system software itself.
All other volumes can be reorganized with the orca commands.
If you want to reorder the boot volume, then you
must shutdown and boot from a different disk then
run orca and finally the commands to reorder the
directory.
Dave Kopper Internet: dave@mystie.webo.dg.com
or: dave%dgc.mceo.dg.com@relay.cs.net
Apple II Forever! GEnie: D.Koppergwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (01/28/91)
In article <1269@dg.dg.com> dave@mystie.rtp.dg.com (David Kopper) writes: >... GS/OS prevents block I/O requests to a volume that >has an open file somewhere on it. Yes, and it is a ROYAL pain. Why in the world did Apple DTS decide to enforce such a silly restriction and can we get them to PLEASE fix it?
bazyar@ernie (Jawaid Bazyar) (01/28/91)
In article <15000@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes: >In article <1269@dg.dg.com> dave@mystie.rtp.dg.com (David Kopper) writes: >>... GS/OS prevents block I/O requests to a volume that >>has an open file somewhere on it. > >Yes, and it is a ROYAL pain. Why in the world did Apple DTS decide to >enforce such a silly restriction and can we get them to PLEASE fix it? Doug, Doug, Doug. Surely you jest. It's only good common sense to prevent low level block I/O requests to a volume with open files. Considering how easily the GS/OS cache can get trashed, it's a GREAT idea. But that restriction doesn't hold for ReadBlock and WriteBlock, I believe. I'm pretty sure I used the device level calls (DRead, DWrite, etc) to change my boot block so holding OA during boot runs prodos 8 instead of GS/OS. No, I'm sure, because I only had the GS/OS exerciser installed as a CDA, and only on the hard drive. Yep, I'm positive. I ran into the (can't access volume) problem with write block, but I tried DWrite and it worked fine. And in any case it was software engineering, not DTS that did this. -- Jawaid Bazyar | "I'm sure K&R have never heard of Mike." Senior/Computer Engineering | bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu | "That's okay. I'm sure Mike's never heard of K&R". Apple II Forever! | (discussion about Orca/C)
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (01/29/91)
In article <1991Jan28.093438.21992@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu (Jawaid Bazyar) writes: >Doug, Doug, Doug. Surely you jest. It's only good common sense to >prevent low level block I/O requests to a volume with open files. No, it's stupid. It assumes that the programmer does not know what he is doing. While this may be true for Macintosh USERS, it should not be assumed of Apple IIGS PROGRAMMERS. Our tools have been deliberately crippled! There have been other reported actual problems caused by this restriction.
toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) (01/29/91)
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes: > Our tools have been deliberately crippled! I disagree. The present situation is REQUIRED because of a limitation in the current FST design. If FST's could be given the opportunity to 'veto' low level I/O requests, this wouldn't be a problem. Since the FST's are assumed to be caching blocks whenever they can (the ProDOS FST does it to directory blocks a lot), it is a very bad idea to perform direct writes to blocks that an FST thinks it has a valid cache copy of. >There have been other reported actual problems caused by this restriction. Yes, but they way things are currently set up, removing the restriction would cause worse problems. Todd Whitesel toddpw @ tybalt.caltech.edu
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (01/30/91)
In article <1991Jan29.113245.24252@nntp-server.caltech.edu> toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) writes: >Since the FST's are assumed to be caching blocks whenever they can ... But all that is required is for the block I/O calls to ask the FSTs to flush their caches before proceeding with the block I/O. In any case this is a fixable problem. (On UNIX it is solved by assuming that the filesystem is not mounted during a "raw disk" I/O operation, and it is the user's responsibility to ensure this condition. On GS/OS another approach would be required.)
bazyar@ernie (Jawaid Bazyar) (01/30/91)
In article <15014@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes: >In article <1991Jan29.113245.24252@nntp-server.caltech.edu> toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) writes: >>Since the FST's are assumed to be caching blocks whenever they can ... > >But all that is required is for the block I/O calls to ask the FSTs >to flush their caches before proceeding with the block I/O. In any >case this is a fixable problem. (On UNIX it is solved by assuming >that the filesystem is not mounted during a "raw disk" I/O operation, >and it is the user's responsibility to ensure this condition. On >GS/OS another approach would be required.) I still fail to see the problem. How often do you actually have to do block I/O on a disk drive? Not very often, you say? Maybe once or twice a month to check for filesystem inconsistencies? Is it too rough to have to boot off of floppy once or twice a month? sheesh... -- Jawaid Bazyar | "I'm sure K&R have never heard of Mike." Senior/Computer Engineering | bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu | "That's okay. I'm sure Mike's never heard of K&R". Apple II Forever! | (discussion about Orca/C)
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (01/31/91)
In article <1991Jan29.210436.3866@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu (Jawaid Bazyar) writes: >Is it too rough to have to boot off of floppy once or twice a month? That's not the point. Suppose as a programmer I come up with a nice, safe disk compaction utility. My customers might conceivably like to run this utility fairly frequently. What Apple has done is force me to tell my customers, "Well, the utility works okay on every partition on your hard disk EXECPT the one you booted from; reboot from the special floppy whose construction is detailed in Appendix A." That makes me, not Apple, look like an incompetent in the eyes of my customers. Note that several existing commercial products "suddenly stopped working" when customers upgraded to the Apple IIGS System Disk release that added this restriction. The essential issue is one of system software design. It is obvious to any competent systems programmer that systems programs are easier to implement correctly, and that they work more "slickly", when the fundamental OS features obey a simple model than when they follow a "warty" model. Warts make it necessary to invest more effort in the design and implementation of applications while simultaneously reducing their utility. This is an issue that the Computing Techniques research group at AT&T Bell Laboratories obvious understands very well; it would behoove others to understand it also.
taob@pnet91.cts.com (Brian Tao) (01/31/91)
From toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel): > Since the FST's are assumed to be caching blocks whenever they can (the > ProDOS FST does it to directory blocks a lot), it is a very bad idea to > perform direct writes to blocks that an FST thinks it has a valid cache > copy of. Is it not possible to purge or flush the GS/OS cache after a direct block write of the boot disk? That would force the directory information to be reloaded from the disk, and nothing would be corrupted. Brian T. Tao {taob@pnet91.cts.com} || Computer guru? Someone who got University of Metro Toronto || their computer a couple of weeks Scarberia, ON, MIC 3A8 *B-) || before you did. (Alvin Toffler)
dlyons@Apple.COM (David A. Lyons) (02/04/91)
In article <15006@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes: >In article <1991Jan28.093438.21992@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu (Jawaid Bazyar) writes: >>Doug, Doug, Doug. Surely you jest. It's only good common sense to >>prevent low level block I/O requests to a volume with open files. > >No, it's stupid. It assumes that the programmer does not know what he >is doing. While this may be true for Macintosh USERS, it should not >be assumed of Apple IIGS PROGRAMMERS. Our tools have been deliberately >crippled! You *can* use DRead and DWrite even on volumes with open files. You have to be Very Careful, though--there is no obvious way to determine whether an FST has its own copies of the data in some of those blocks. You could confuse an FST into corrupting the disk, if you mess with any block related to an open file. (By the way, the GS/OS Cache is not the issue here--that's flushed to disk automatically on a DWrite. The issue is that an FST can have its own private copies of the blocks it currently cares about.) I *do* think it would be good to have a supported way of "unmounting" a volume so that no FST knows about it; but this wouldn't help a whole lot, because your boot volume would still have an open file (Sys.Resources) and you would not be able to unmount it. -- David A. Lyons, Apple Computer, Inc. | DAL Systems Apple II System Software Engineer | P.O. Box 875 America Online: Dave Lyons | Cupertino, CA 95015-0875 GEnie: D.LYONS2 or DAVE.LYONS CompuServe: 72177,3233 Internet/BITNET: dlyons@apple.com UUCP: ...!ames!apple!dlyons My opinions are my own, not Apple's.
dlyons@Apple.COM (David A. Lyons) (02/04/91)
In article <425@generic.UUCP> taob@pnet91.cts.com (Brian Tao) writes: >From toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel): > >> Since the FST's are assumed to be caching blocks whenever they can (the >> ProDOS FST does it to directory blocks a lot), it is a very bad idea to >> perform direct writes to blocks that an FST thinks it has a valid cache >> copy of. > > Is it not possible to purge or flush the GS/OS cache after a direct block >write of the boot disk? That would force the directory information to be >reloaded from the disk, and nothing would be corrupted. > >Brian T. Tao {taob@pnet91.cts.com} || Computer guru? Someone who got >University of Metro Toronto || their computer a couple of weeks >Scarberia, ON, MIC 3A8 *B-) || before you did. (Alvin Toffler) Flushing the cache doesn't address the problem; the tricky part is when an FST has its *own* copy of some of the data on the volume. (You could call this a "cached" copy, but it's not in the GS/OS Cache.) -- David A. Lyons, Apple Computer, Inc. | DAL Systems Apple II System Software Engineer | P.O. Box 875 America Online: Dave Lyons | Cupertino, CA 95015-0875 GEnie: D.LYONS2 or DAVE.LYONS CompuServe: 72177,3233 Internet/BITNET: dlyons@apple.com UUCP: ...!ames!apple!dlyons My opinions are my own, not Apple's.
taob@pnet91.cts.com (Brian Tao) (02/06/91)
From dlyons@Apple.COM (David A. Lyons): > Flushing the cache doesn't address the problem; the tricky part is > when an FST has its *own* copy of some of the data on the volume. > (You could call this a "cached" copy, but it's not in the GS/OS > Cache.) Am I right in assuming that the ProDOS FST is restarted (or at leat re- initialized) when returning from a ProDOS 8 program? Prosel-8's Cat Doctor happily sorts any folder on any ProDOS volume, and when GS/OS returns, the FST doesn't have any problems with it. Brian T. Tao {taob@pnet91.cts.com} || Computer guru? Someone who got University of Metro Toronto || their computer a couple of weeks Scarberia, ON, MIC 3A8 *B-) || before you did. (Alvin Toffler)