rhyde@feller.ucr.edu (randy hyde) (03/23/91)
My wife's computer store just got the latest AE dealer catalog. Missing are *all* Apple II peripherals.
kjs39186@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Kent Squires) (03/23/91)
rhyde@feller.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes: >My wife's computer store just got the latest AE dealer catalog. >Missing are *all* Apple II peripherals. so what is AE making now? mac stuff and gs?
jdeitch@umiami.ir.miami.edu (Jonathan Deitch) (03/23/91)
In article <1991Mar23.004352.9545@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, kjs39186@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Kent Squires) writes: > rhyde@feller.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes: > > >>My wife's computer store just got the latest AE dealer catalog. >>Missing are *all* Apple II peripherals. > > so what is AE making now? mac stuff and gs? Does "Missing are *all* Apple II peripherals" include AEs memory and accelerator cards ? It'd be a bummer if Transwarp was no longer available, not even mentioning Z-ram memory cards and the like. * * ^ /---\ - Jonathan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Internet : jdeitch@umiami.miami.edu | "Good musicians execute ------------------------------------------------- | their music but bad ones "I'm a Time Lord. I walk in eternity !" - Dr Who | murder it !!! "
kjs39186@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Kent Squires) (03/23/91)
>>>My wife's computer store just got the latest AE dealer catalog. >>>Missing are *all* Apple II peripherals. >> >> so what is AE making now? mac stuff and gs? >Does "Missing are *all* Apple II peripherals" include AEs memory and >accelerator cards ? It'd be a bummer if Transwarp was no longer available, >not even mentioning Z-ram memory cards and the like. * * > ^ > /---\ I know they (AE) have dabbled in stuff for the Amiga - maybe that's where they're headed... _________________________________________________________________________ | Move over Rover & |Email Addresses: Kent Squires | | let Jimi take over!| Internet: kjs39186@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu | | -------------------| ProLine: kents@pro-apa | | I wouldn't do it |_______ America OnLine: kents12 | | for all the farms in Cuba! | FidoNet: 233/15 Kent Squires | |____________________________|____________________________________________|
MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (03/23/91)
On Sat, 23 Mar 91 00:43:52 GMT <info-apple-request@APPLE.COM> said: >rhyde@feller.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes: > >>My wife's computer store just got the latest AE dealer catalog. >>Missing are *all* Apple II peripherals. > >so what is AE making now? mac stuff and gs? A GS -IS- and Apple II! ---------------------------------------- Michael J. Quinn University of Tennessee at Chattanooga BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm <------------send files here pro-line-- mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com
rhyde@feller.ucr.edu (randy hyde) (03/24/91)
Just Mac Stuff, no Apple II stuff (GS or otherwise) at all. Surprisingly, not even the TWGS was there.
bazyar@ernie (Jawaid Bazyar) (03/24/91)
In article <13008@ucrmath.ucr.edu> rhyde@feller.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes: >Just Mac Stuff, no Apple II stuff (GS or otherwise) at all. Surprisingly, >not even the TWGS was there. Sheesh. This is the way bad rumors get started. My guess is that AE has removed Apple II stuff from their catalogs that go to dealers in an attempt to save money- most dealers will never deal with Apple II products again, especially if the "Sears" rumors have any ounce of truth. Then again, maybe not. Perhaps they'll find out how difficult it is for a small company to sell to a "bottom-line" MS-DOS market and LOSE EVERYTHING! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHH! Sorry 'bout that. -- Jawaid Bazyar |"I'm sure K&R have never heard of Mike." Senior/Computer Engineering | bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu |"That's okay. I'm sure Mike's never heard of K&R". Apple II Forever! | (discussion about Orca/C)
rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) (03/24/91)
>>>>>
Sheesh. This is the way bad rumors get started. My guess is that AE
has removed Apple II stuff from their catalogs that go to dealers in
an attempt to save money.
<<<<<
We can only hope. I find it hard to believe that they would cancel the
TWGS. I was under the impression it was a real money maker for them.
Perhaps ZIP et. al. have provided too much competition for AE.
According to Mandy, you can still get the stuff. Looks, however, like they're
preparing to phase it out. They're making a big to-do about their support
for the Mac. Sound familiar?
*** Randy Hyde O-)bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (Bob Sherman) (03/24/91)
In <13008@ucrmath.ucr.edu> rhyde@feller.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes: >Just Mac Stuff, no Apple II stuff (GS or otherwise) at all. Surprisingly, >not even the TWGS was there. Perhaps it is time for all of us to let AE know what we think of their current thinking.. including the use of a 900 number at $1.50 per min (including while you are on hold) for Apple II tech support... Their rep on Compuserve is Bruce Babb, and from the net he can be reached there by mail at 76004.1575@compuserve.com.. If anyone knows their Applelink address, post that one too.. Perhaps a flood of protest mail will in addition to clogging their mailboxes, open their eyes... -- bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu | | MCI MAIL:BSHERMAN
2hnemarrow@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (03/24/91)
In article <13028@ucrmath.ucr.edu>, rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes: > > While I must agree that AE actions are reprehensible, I don't feel that > writing nasty letters is the way to change any opinions at AE. They are > in business to make money, not to make people happy. If you really want to > change their attitudes, start buying stuff from them. Get your friends to > buy stuff from them. Alas, blasting them because they are making a reasonable .... Is that a typo? It kind of sounds like the peace-activist's creed of consumer affairs. That would've made a good policy for Iraq. Hey, they invaded Kuwait, let's give them a lot of money, and get all of our friends to give them lots of money, and then maybe they'll leave. (Sorry, the Iraqi invasion was the only other recent event I've heard called "reprehensible". The best way to deal with the problem is to warn anyone who considers buying anything from AE to avoid that company at all costs, including the people who own Macs and Amigas. AE is the only company that I know of, who could take a drive mechanism as well-made as the Connners, and build a hard drive that's basically a piece of junk. I was lucky enough to be warned by a SysOp to stay away from it. Unfortunately, I was unfortunate as to have bought junk such as ReadyLink Communications Errware and a TransChoke Accelerator. Then, I have a friend who bought an AE RAM Scrambler with something that looks like it may have originally been intended as a battery, and a DataMaybe modem. I agree, don't write AE about their stupid 900 number, write to everyone who thinks they want to deal with a company like AE in the future. I for one will have plenty to write in the next AUG newsletter.
rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) (03/25/91)
>>>>>
Perhaps it is time for all of us to let AE know what we think of their
current thinking.. including the use of a 900 number at $1.50 per min
(including while you are on hold) for Apple II tech support...
<<<<<
While I must agree that AE actions are reprehensible, I don't feel that
writing nasty letters is the way to change any opinions at AE. They are
in business to make money, not to make people happy. If you really want to
change their attitudes, start buying stuff from them. Get your friends to
buy stuff from them. Alas, blasting them because they are making a reasonable
business decision isn't going to increase their support for the Apple II.
Now you're probably say "Gee, I've already bought everything I want from AE,
why should I spend any more money there?" Good question. OTOH, if you've already
purchased everything they offer, why would you care if they support the Apple II
line anymore?
The Apple II line is dying a slow death due to economic starvation. Nothing
else. Apple Computer still loves the machine. Why would they still be selling
it today if they didn't? OTOH, economic realities are beginning to set in.
If the Apple IIgs does everything *you* need it to do, great. Don't waste
your money on another computer until this changes. However, the future is
definitely with an architecture other than the Apple II. 1978-1991 may not
be "forever", but no other computer has come close to lasting that long (yet!).
The Mac and PC will definitely last longer (as commercial products) than the
Apple II, but nothing else has. And only time will tell if anything ever
will. Before you cry too loud about Apple (and others) deserting us, think
about this: TRS-80, Exidy Sorcerer, Commodore PET/VIC-20/64/128, PCjr,
Apple III, Lisa, Atari 400/800, S-100 (pick a brand, any brand), Victor 9000,
Mindset, Apple I (!), and on, and on, and on. All in all, we've done pretty
good.
Ultimately, we cannot place the blame on Apple for the demise of the Apple II
line. The 65xxx processor technology simply hasn't kept up. The 65832,
if it really exists, is too little too late. 25Mhz Zip chips may make a great
niche product, but you can't get the devices in quantity (in fact, any quantity)
today. And it's questionable what the system performance would be like when
they get stuck in a machine with 80ns RAM.
Now that the Mac and PC have captured the lion's share of the business market,
I couldn't imagine Apple producing a great Apple II computer, even if a great
chip were available. It would cost too much to evangalize the developers to
switch to the new platform. Look at the problems Jobs is having with the
NeXT. That is a great machine, but it isn't selling well at all (indeed,
the last figures I saw show the Apple //gs outselling the NeXT).
Even if you decide to switch to another machine, hang on to your Apple IIs,
in a few years they will probably be collector items.
*** randy Hyde O-)bazyar@ernie (Jawaid Bazyar) (03/25/91)
In article <13028@ucrmath.ucr.edu> rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes: >Ultimately, we cannot place the blame on Apple for the demise of the Apple II >line. The 65xxx processor technology simply hasn't kept up. The 65832, >if it really exists, is too little too late. 25Mhz Zip chips may make a great >niche product, but you can't get the devices in quantity (in fact, any quantity) >today. And it's questionable what the system performance would be like when >they get stuck in a machine with 80ns RAM. Uhh, last time I checked, 33MHz '386s used 80ns RAM. There's a thing called a "cache" that interfaces high-speed CPUs and slow memory. The GS accelerators have one. You put it together and figure it out. -- Jawaid Bazyar |"I'm sure K&R have never heard of Mike." Senior/Computer Engineering | bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu |"That's okay. I'm sure Mike's never heard of K&R". Apple II Forever! | (discussion about Orca/C)
shawng@pro-charlotte.cts.com (Shawn Goodin) (03/25/91)
In-Reply-To: message from rhyde@feller.ucr.edu According to Bruce Babb, a rep from AE who frequents CompuServe, he stated that AE now has three catalogs -- one for the Mac, one for the Apple //, and one for the Amiga. UUCP: ....!crash!pro-charlotte!shawng | Pro-Charlotte - (704) 567-0029 ARPA: crash!pro-charlotte!shawng@nosc.mil | 300-9600 baud (HST) 24 hrs/day INET: shawng@pro-charlotte.cts.com | Log in as "register"
rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) (03/25/91)
I still wonder why they wouldn't *at least* put the prices on their dealer price list. They will sell the stuff to you, they're just not (apparently) pushing it on the dealers. *Sigh* Maybe this Sears thing, if it comes to pass, will change their mind. I suspect now that I may never get a 12Mhz TWGS from them! One things for sure, even if they continue to sell their exisiting product line, it doesn't look good that we'll see new products for the Apple II family from them. *** Randy Hyde
rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) (03/25/91)
It's too bad all of these posts aren't saved up some place convenient (like
they do on BIX and CompuServe). That way I could post a pointer rather than
explaining bus interfaces every month!
>>>>
Uhh, last time I checked, 33MHz '386s used 80ns RAM. There's a thing
called a "cache" that interfaces high-speed CPUs and slow memory.
The GS accelerators have one. You put it together and figure it out.
<<<<
The 65xxx family has always used a two-phase clock and a high performance
bus interface. X Mhz on a 65xxx is comparable to 2X Mhz on most other
processors (at least, in terms of memory access times). A 25Mhz 65c816
(on the bus anyway) is comparable to a 80386 running at 50Mhz (please, no
flames or jumping for joy, the performance of the two is not the same for
reasons I'll soon get in to). Indeed, the two-phase clock is assymmetrical,
so memory access time is even faster than this. You need less than 20ns
chips for a 25Mhz part. Yes, static RAMs exist which run this fast. They
are very expensive. The 386/486/68040 etc., have another big advantage,
the cache is on the microprocessor chip. Even the ZIP chip folks aren't
doing exactly this (If I understand how their circuit works). They use a
hybrid approach). The end result is that you also need decoding and cache
support circuitry. This steals some of those precious ns away. Now you're
talking 5-10 ns RAM. Yes, it exists, but it is *very* expensive.
Most off-processor caches on 386 systems do *not* provide true zero wait
states. They let you get by with one wait state rather than several.
Processors like the 386 don't slow down as much for some number of wait
states because they can fetch four bytes with one wait state penalty (compared
to the 816 fetching one byte with a wait state penalty).
Comparing the two on a cycle by cycle basis is very difficult and complex,
but a simplification that might be valid is to say that a waitstate hurts the
65c816 about 4-8 times as much as it hurts the 80386. For example, introducing
*just one* wait state to the 65c816 almost cuts the speed of the executed code
in half. One wait state on on a 386 doesn't hurt anywhere near as much.
True, accelerators on the GS (and below!) have a cache, but they're not
running at 25Mhz either! The best I've seen is a butchered TWGS running
at about 12 Mhz. It required 15 ns RAM.
Wet Dream: WDC produces a 12.5 Mhz 65032 (with 32-bit bus interface) and
Apple builds a machine around it. Such a device would probably compete
fairly with 16 & 20 Mhz 68020 machines. A fast '816 with its 8-bit bus
doesn't really stand a chance.MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (03/25/91)
On Sun, 24 Mar 91 17:30:30 GMT randy hyde said: >>>>>> >Perhaps it is time for all of us to let AE know what we think of their >current thinking.. including the use of a 900 number at $1.50 per min >(including while you are on hold) for Apple II tech support... ><<<<< > >While I must agree that AE actions are reprehensible, I don't feel that >writing nasty letters is the way to change any opinions at AE. They are Writing letters will certainly do more good than NOT writing letters. If they get enough of them, they just might change. But giving up before you try certainly won't accomplish anything. >in business to make money, not to make people happy. If you really want to but making people happy is a key to making money. >change their attitudes, start buying stuff from them. Get your friends to I -HAVE- bought stuff from them. Total value.... Hold on, lemme get a calculator.... ok... $1108. And THAT's mail order prices. Retail would have been... lemme see... (getting calculator again)... about $1579.. I can't remember the exact retail prices of these things, but It's close. My total price doesn't count the long distance calls to tech support and the cost of shipping all but ONE of the products back because they didn't work when they got here. Also not included in that price is the TIME I was without my stuff while it was being 'repaired'... a.k.a. 'sitting on a shelf' for months. Concidering that my stuff was sitting on a shelf for a long time, indicates that many products were sent back for repair, indicating that many more had been bought, which also indicates that sales were not bad. Also, it's not up to US to spend hundreds (or thousands) of our dollars on their products when they're stabbing us in the backs, to try to turn them in our favor. We've paid a VERY high price for their products and now we're getting nothing for that high price. Not to long ago, we were suggesting that they get a 1-800 number for their tech support, so what do they do? They go 180 degrees in the opposite direction and get a 1-900 number and charge us $1.50 a MINUTE!!! This is COMPLETELY unnacceptable. >buy stuff from them. Alas, blasting them because they are making a reasonable >business decision isn't going to increase their support for the Apple II. Whether it was a reasonable decision or not is debateable, but not letting them know what we think about is DEFINITELY not going to increase their support for the Apple II. >Now you're probably say "Gee, I've already bought everything I want from AE, >why should I spend any more money there?" Good question. OTOH, if you've > already >purchased everything they offer, why would you care if they support the Apple >II >line anymore? I've bought all the stuff I want from them (for NOW), until they come down with their prices on existing stuff or until they improve products they already have or until they come out with completely new products. Also, I care if they support the II even if I were planning on not ever getting anything else from them because I don't feel I should pay $1.50 per MINUTE to be put on hold for 10 minutes to find out something on products I've already paid out the butt from them. If I had known that I had to pay $1.50 per minute for tech support BEFORE I bought this stuff, I'd never have justified paying as much as I did and I certainly would not have bought any of it. (A 10 minute call to tech support would cost me about 2.5 hours at work to pay for.) >The Apple II line is dying a slow death due to economic starvation. Nothing >else. Apple Computer still loves the machine. Why would they still be selling >it today if they didn't? ................................................. If they loved the machine, why aren't they TRYING to sell it? Why are they pushing macs right and left? Why are there NO Apple II advertisements? They don't love the Apple II, they love the money it makes them. If they loved the II, they'd be doing something about it. The reason they still sell it is because of two reasons that I can think of: 1. They make more money selling it than not selling it. 2. It would look PRETTY suspicious if they claimed that they were supporting the Apple II while stopping production of it at the same time. Their actions vs. their words remind of someone who said he definitely would not invade a tiny defenseless country, while making plans to do it at the same time. I'm not saying that they're as bad (or ANYWHERE -NEAR- as bad) as Sodam, but I trust them with their promises just a little more than sodam. >.........................OTOH, economic realities are beginning to set in. >If the Apple IIgs does everything *you* need it to do, great. Don't waste >your money on another computer until this changes. However, the future is >definitely with an architecture other than the Apple II. 1978-1991 may not >be "forever", but no other computer has come close to lasting that long (yet!). No other computer has lasted that long, not because they keep dying off, but because the Apple II was the first (or one of the first) PC's ever made. Sure, it's lasted well over a decade, but it can definitely last MUCH longer if Apple would let it. Look at the IBM PC. It's been here since 1981 and the latest model is still compatible with the first AND it's the most used computer today and shows no signs of letting up and it's also one of the most powerful PC's in production. >The Mac and PC will definitely last longer (as commercial products) than the >Apple II, but nothing else has. And only time will tell if anything ever It doesn't matter how long it's already lasted. What matters is how long it's GOING to last. If Apple says, "Apple II forever" (which I haven't heard in a while), then they should be doing something to make it that way. Instead, they're still saying that, but at the same time, trying to cut it off. If they were saying, "We're going to cut it off", then that would be different. >will. Before you cry too loud about Apple (and others) deserting us, think >about this: TRS-80, Exidy Sorcerer, Commodore PET/VIC-20/64/128, PCjr, >Apple III, Lisa, Atari 400/800, S-100 (pick a brand, any brand), Victor 9000, >Mindset, Apple I (!), and on, and on, and on. All in all, we've done pretty >good. I may be wrong about this, but isn't the PCjr compatible with other IBM PCs? If so, it's no different than the original IBM PC. IBM didn't desert it. They make the same computer, but bigger, better, and faster. (with the exception of the sound capabilities of the PCjr). Also, the reason the Apple ///, Lisa, PCjr, (don't know about the others you listed) were abandoned was because they just didn't sell. It's perfectly reasonable to give up on them. The Apple II is different, it DOES sell. It was sell even MORE if Apple would at least TRY. But they're not. They're are consciously killing the Apple II and all the third party support is goin with it. >Ultimately, we cannot place the blame on Apple for the demise of the Apple II >line. The 65xxx processor technology simply hasn't kept up. The 65832, >if it really exists, is too little too late. 25Mhz Zip chips may make a great >niche product, but you can't get the devices in quantity (in fact, any >quantity) >today. And it's questionable what the system performance would be like when >they get stuck in a machine with 80ns RAM. The technology COULD keep up, if Apple had wanted it too. Apple has a very large influence on which chips get enhanced. The recent CMOS breakthrough is evidence that the '816 (or '832) could still compete. >Now that the Mac and PC have captured the lion's share of the business market, >I couldn't imagine Apple producing a great Apple II computer, even if a great >chip were available. It would cost too much to evangalize the developers to >switch to the new platform. Concidering that there are 7 million Apple II's out there and only 2 million macs, I don't think it would be too hard. >Look at the problems Jobs is having with the >NeXT. That is a great machine, but it isn't selling well at all (indeed, >the last figures I saw show the Apple //gs outselling the NeXT). That's because there's nothing in existence that's NeXT compatible and there is even less software for the NeXT than for the II. The NeXT is also priced WAY too high (the GS is too, but at least it's affordable). The Apple II already has an installed userbase and it's well known. It wouldn't be too too hard to sell it. >Even if you decide to switch to another machine, hang on to your Apple IIs, >in a few years they will probably be collector items. This, I agree with. :) >*** randy Hyde O-) ---------------------------------------- Michael J. Quinn University of Tennessee at Chattanooga BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm <------------send files here pro-line-- mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com
MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (03/25/91)
On Sun, 24 Mar 91 21:36:13 GMT Shawn Goodin said: >In-Reply-To: message from rhyde@feller.ucr.edu > >According to Bruce Babb, a rep from AE who frequents CompuServe, he stated >that AE now has three catalogs -- one for the Mac, one for the Apple //, >and one for the Amiga. Whew!!! What a relief! Did he say anything about their $1.50 per minute 900 number ONLY for Apple II users? > UUCP: ....!crash!pro-charlotte!shawng | Pro-Charlotte - (704) 567-0029 > ARPA: crash!pro-charlotte!shawng@nosc.mil | 300-9600 baud (HST) 24 hrs/day > INET: shawng@pro-charlotte.cts.com | Log in as "register" ---------------------------------------- Michael J. Quinn University of Tennessee at Chattanooga BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm <------------send files here pro-line-- mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com
mcgu5464@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Ronald J Mcguire) (03/25/91)
In article <1991Mar22.210614.8266@umiami.ir.miami.edu> jdeitch@umiami.ir.miami.edu (Jonathan Deitch) writes: >> rhyde@feller.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes: >>>My wife's computer store just got the latest AE dealer catalog. >>>Missing are *all* Apple II peripherals. >Does "Missing are *all* Apple II peripherals" include AEs memory and >accelerator cards ? It'd be a bummer if Transwarp was no longer available, >not even mentioning Z-ram memory cards and the like. * * Duh, it just occured to me - Doesn't AE own the rights to the new ASIC 25Mhz chip? What would its future be? Dan
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (03/25/91)
In article <13028@ucrmath.ucr.edu> rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes: >If you really want to change their attitudes, start buying stuff from them. NO! AE would interpret improved sales as support for their changed policy, not opposition to it. What you should do is write them and explain that you used to buy their products but due to their new policies you will not be buying ANY of their products in the future, until and unless their policies notably improve. >Ultimately, we cannot place the blame on Apple for the demise of the Apple II >line. The 65xxx processor technology simply hasn't kept up. That can largely be blamed on lack of support from Apple. Intel received major support from IBM for the improvement of their 80x86 processor family, which was not architecturally better than the 65xxx family. (The 680x0 is generally a better architecture, but that hasn't made it the winner in the PC wars.)
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (03/25/91)
In article <13033@ucrmath.ucr.edu> rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes: >Wet Dream: WDC produces a 12.5 Mhz 65032 (with 32-bit bus interface) and >Apple builds a machine around it. Such a device would probably compete >fairly with 16 & 20 Mhz 68020 machines. A fast '816 with its 8-bit bus >doesn't really stand a chance. I don't see how, apart from the evidence that Apple was still interested in the future of the Apple II line, such a product would help. The reason for not buying an Apple II have nothing to do with processor speed; existing applications generally run acceptably on the current IIGS (especially with one of the CPU accelerators installed). The real problem is that there is practically no current software being developed and marketed for the Apple IIGS. If one wishes to buy a PC today, the best choice is normally going to be a fast PC/AT clone, due to the great software support for it.
ART100@psuvm.psu.edu (Andy Tefft) (03/25/91)
In article <9103250419.AA09971@apple.com>, MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET says: > >getting nothing for that high price. Not to long ago, we were suggesting that >they get a 1-800 number for their tech support, so what do they do? They go >180 degrees in the opposite direction and get a 1-900 number and charge us >$1.50 a MINUTE!!! This is COMPLETELY unnacceptable. 900 numbers are probably the biggest legal scam in the free world. They make money for the phone company, they make money for the company with the number, and they cost the customer an arm and a leg. I previously refrained from discussion on this because I didn't own any AE products, but now I do -- a Ramworks III and (backordered) a 5.25" drive. Hopefully I will not NEED tech support from them, because there is no way I am calling a 900 number, ANY 900 number. I realize that some 900 numbers charge at a low cost per minute, just to recoup the costs of operating the line. But whatever happened to the days when a phone line was considered part of the operating cost of a business? An 800 tech support number would be wonderful, but a 900 number is just unacceptable. I would prefer a normal, long-distance call, which would cost probably 50 cents a minute (during the day, when you would be forced to call). I guess I am a little peeved at AE for their advertising as well. The ad for the ramworks III, for example, goes to great lengths to assure us that the ramworks III is compatible with all software. This can be somewhat misleading to the uninformed computer user, who may not realize that the promise is not that if you have a meg on the card it will be used by all software, just that it is compatible AS AN EXTENDED 80 COL. CARD. Kind of like how my mouse card is compatible with all software -- not all of it will use the mouse, but it doesn't bomb anything. The ad also goes to great lengths to tell us about the enhancements to Appleworks, sounding like just by virtue of having the card in your computer you will gain these enhancements. While some of them ARE automatically supported by different versions of Appleworks, in order to gain all the enhancements you do need to patch Appleworks (software provided). While the more informed user may know this, the ads are directed at the informed and uninformed user alike. Finally, I was reading through the catalog that came with my RamWorks, and the ads there really don't help one make an informed decision between two products. For example, the wording in the Ramworks and Ramfactor ads is so similar that it is difficult to tell the advantages and disadvantages of each. This is one reason I asked in comp.sys.apple2. Now, I do like my Ramworks, and i'm not disappointed with it... I just am not pleased with the way AE chooses to do business.
kjs39186@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Kent Squires) (03/26/91)
>NO! AE would interpret improved sales as support for their changed policy, >not opposition to it. What you should do is write them and explain that >you used to buy their products but due to their new policies you will not >be buying ANY of their products in the future, until and unless their >policies notably improve. Maybe somebody should draft up a letter for AE, post it, then we can all get it and send it...I'm sure THEY'VE seen a form letter before.
rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) (03/26/91)
>>>>>>
Concidering that there are 7 million Apple II's out there and only 2 million
macs, I don't think it would be too hard.
<<<<<<
I would like to see references for these numbers. While I suspect Apple
may have sold more Apple II systems than Macs (in total volume only), I'm
pretty sure the Mac numbers are *much* higher than this. Also, seven
million Apple IIs seems kinda high. They didn't hit one million units until
around 1983 if memory serves me right. Although the Apple IIgs has been
the big (unit) sales leader for many Christmases since 1985, I suspect the
Mac has been outselling (on a yearly basis) the last couple of years.
Now that the Classic is out, I suspect you'll find that it becomes the
big sales leader (they were predicting a million of those alone, this year).
I don't know how many Macs and Apple IIs have been sold. But I suspect
Apple has sold me than 2 million Macs since 1984. I'd like to see where
you got your numbers from.
*** randy hydebsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (Bob Sherman) (03/26/91)
In <15568@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes: >In article <13028@ucrmath.ucr.edu> rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes: >>If you really want to change their attitudes, start buying stuff from them. >NO! AE would interpret improved sales as support for their changed policy, >not opposition to it. What you should do is write them and explain that >you used to buy their products but due to their new policies you will not >be buying ANY of their products in the future, until and unless their >policies notably improve. In addition to the e-mail address of AE on compuserve which I posted a fer days ago, you can also send them your protest mail via their Applelink address as follows.... D0292@applelink.apple.com Repeating in case of line noise... D0292@applelink.apple.com -- bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu | | MCI MAIL:BSHERMAN
mkheintz@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Michael Heintz) (03/27/91)
Followup- Distribution: Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI Keywords: In article <13008@ucrmath.ucr.edu> rhyde@feller.ucr.edu (randy hyde) writes: >Just Mac Stuff, no Apple II stuff (GS or otherwise) at all. Surprisingly, >not even the TWGS was there. If I remember correctly, the original stateme was that Apple II stuff was no longer in th e AEDealer catalog. Since Dealers don't carry Apple II stuff, or even push the product, perhaps AE is just saving money by not bothering to put it in the catalog. Anyway, at this point I would not worry about it. Especially if this Sears rumor is true! Mike ---my opinions
swede@pro-nsdapple.cts.com (Bruce Lindmark) (03/27/91)
In-Reply-To: message from bazyar@ernie AE has produced a catalog for their mac line for the first time. If the computer store had received AE's new amiga catalog what would the rumor have been? AE has -3- catalogs, Apple //, mac and amiga. ---- ProLine: swede@pro-nsdapple Internet: swede@pro-nsdapple.cts.com UUCP: crash!pro-nsdapple!swede ARPA: crash!pro-nsdapple!swede@nosc.mil
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (03/27/91)
In article <1991Mar25.181017.4581@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> kjs39186@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Kent Squires) writes: >>NO! AE would interpret improved sales as support for their changed policy, >Maybe somebody should draft up a letter for AE, post it, then we can all >get it and send it...I'm sure THEY'VE seen a form letter before. Form letters are AWFUL for serious complaints. I have learned this from rec.arts.tv. Do not mention you are with any organization that is having a group effort to send in complaints.. This is more apt for saving a TV show but somehow might be appropriate here. ESPECIALLY do not mention it on the outside of the envelope. Don't mention that you are writing a complaint on the outside of the envelope either. Have each person write a different letter individually and make sure to sign it. Also, petitions of names are a bad idea too.. And write in to save Twin Peaks!! -- /unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu Apple IIGS Forever! ULTIMA VI GS -mail me. CDs-mail me\ \ McIntosh Junior: The Power to Crush the Other Kids. /
chris.s@pro-starbase.cts.com (Christopher Sokolov) (03/31/91)
In-Reply-To: message from rhyde@feller.ucr.edu >My wife's computer store just got the latest AE dealer catalog. >Missing are *all* Apple II peripherals Uh, I think that is a little premature. Our local mail order dealer just got his catalog, and Apple II products ARE included. -Christopher Sokolov ------ ProLine: csokolov@pro-starbase -or- pro-starbase!tic-starport!csokolov InterNet: csokolov@pro-starbase.cts.com UUCP: ..crash!pro-starbase!csokolov ARPA/DDN: crash!pro-starbase!chris.s@nosc.mil StarPort: csokolov@tic-starport ------
eroshier@pro-angmar.UUCP (Ernest Roshier) (04/01/91)
In-Reply-To: message from MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET All you people on the net are missing the boat. With the ""NEW"" 900 number AE is going to make more money at $1.50 then they would if they sell Apple II products. Any time i have ever called AE on their regular number, (the days before the 900 numbers) you were always on the phone (on hold, etc) for at least 10 min: Lets see now thats $15.00 for 10 mins. OR $90.00 per hour. Talk about profit ? Who would want to see Apple II products at those prices.
MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (04/02/91)
On Tue, 26 Mar 91 01:18:47 GMT randy hyde said: >>>>>>> >Concidering that there are 7 million Apple II's out there and only 2 million >macs, I don't think it would be too hard. ><<<<<< > >I would like to see references for these numbers. While I suspect Apple I've seen it posted here several times, without a single rebuttle, until now. It was about a month before the new macs were officially introduced. It's rare that numbers like that can float around this net without being knocked down IF they're not true. Does anyone else know of an 'official' place these number (whether correct or not) can be found? >may have sold more Apple II systems than Macs (in total volume only), I'm ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What else is there? >pretty sure the Mac numbers are *much* higher than this. Also, seven They may be now, since the Classic came out, but these numbers are what I saw BEFORE the new macs. >million Apple IIs seems kinda high. They didn't hit one million units until It seems reallistic to me, since it's been out for almost 15 years and is sold in almost every in the world. >around 1983 if memory serves me right. Although the Apple IIgs has been >the big (unit) sales leader for many Christmases since 1985, I suspect the >Mac has been outselling (on a yearly basis) the last couple of years. I agree. It's hard to believe that the II has outsold the mac IN RECENT YEARS considering the dealers pretended they didn't exist. >Now that the Classic is out, I suspect you'll find that it becomes the >big sales leader (they were predicting a million of those alone, this year). I agree again, but that doesn't change what the numbers are now. >I don't know how many Macs and Apple IIs have been sold. But I suspect >Apple has sold me than 2 million Macs since 1984. I'd like to see where >you got your numbers from. See above. I admit, I didn't see it in any 'official' form though, at least, I don't -think- I have. Theres something nagging in the back of my head that tells me I saw it in print somewhere. If I remember, I'll post it. >*** randy hyde ---------------------------------------- BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm <------------send files here pro-line-- mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com