aford@pro-mansion.cts.com (Adam Ford) (04/01/91)
In-Reply-To: message from toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu
Couldn't the ROM just have an extra card like a ZIP Chip or Transwarp in a
slot or something?
As far as Stereo, the IIgs has LEFT & RIGHT speakers. Yes, a built-in
Audio input and output would be nice, for home Stereo's and for digitizing.
But, by having third-party companies make them, it leaves more for
compatibility. If you buy a Sonic Blaster from AE, you get software for
THAT and it uses ALL it's features. If apple made one, software companies
may not be as good..
Adam Ford
---
ProLine: aford@pro-mansion | Please Support the Apple II
Internet: aford@pro-mansion |
UUCP: crash!pro-mansion!aford | Line of computers.
ARPA: crash!pro-mansion!aford@nosc.mil |
BitNet: aford%pro-mansion.cts.com@nosc.mil |
toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) (04/01/91)
aford@pro-mansion.cts.com (Adam Ford) writes: >Couldn't the ROM just have an extra card like a ZIP Chip or Transwarp in a >slot or something? Yeah, but that's a package deal, not an upgrade or motherboard revision. >As far as Stereo, the IIgs has LEFT & RIGHT speakers. Oh? where are they? Many of us feel that there should be stereo decoding hardware for the earphone jack. The circuit is not much more than what's already on the motherboard; look in the hardware ref at the end of the chapter on the ensoniq. Apple's original plan had been to include Mockingboard-style sound chips on the motherboard, with real stereo. After the board area budget and most of the layout had been done, somebody thought of including the ensoniq, and they scrambled to fit it in. Unfortunately for us, the extra interface and RAM required by the ensoniq stole too much board area from the sound output section to keep the real stereo. >If you buy a Sonic Blaster from AE, you get software for >THAT and it uses ALL it's features. Oh joy. Does this include the 'excessive noise' feature? The ensoniq's built in digitizer is just not that great unless it is surrounded by a much cleaner analog design than is possible on a single motherboard PC. I would like to see a real digitizer in a slot or as a serial port peripheral like the MacRecorder. Todd Whitesel toddpw @ tybalt.caltech.edu
MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (04/01/91)
On Sun, 31 Mar 91 20:56:13 GMT Adam Ford said: >In-Reply-To: message from toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu > >Couldn't the ROM just have an extra card like a ZIP Chip or Transwarp in a >slot or something? It COULD, but the, you'd be minus one more slot. Slots just aren't the way to upgrade the ROM. >As far as Stereo, the IIgs has LEFT & RIGHT speakers. Yes, a built-in The GS has only ONE speaker. Even if you use your own, seperately paid for, speakers connected to the headphone jack, you still don't have stereo, because the same signal is sent to both speakers. >Audio input and output would be nice, for home Stereo's and for digitizing. >But, by having third-party companies make them, it leaves more for >compatibility. How's that? >If you buy a Sonic Blaster from AE, you get software for >THAT and it uses ALL it's features. If apple made one, software companies >may not be as good.. If the Apple II fully supported stereo, more companies would write software that would take advantage of it. I don't quite follow what you mean by, software 'companies' would not be as good. > Adam Ford >--- >ProLine: aford@pro-mansion | Please Support the Apple II >Internet: aford@pro-mansion | >UUCP: crash!pro-mansion!aford | Line of computers. >ARPA: crash!pro-mansion!aford@nosc.mil | >BitNet: aford%pro-mansion.cts.com@nosc.mil | ---------------------------------------- BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm <------------send files here pro-line-- mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com
daveh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (David H. Huang) (04/01/91)
In article <8311@crash.cts.com> aford@pro-mansion.cts.com (Adam Ford) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu > >Couldn't the ROM just have an extra card like a ZIP Chip or Transwarp in a >slot or something? Why fill a slot if it would be better to fix the motherboard? >As far as Stereo, the IIgs has LEFT & RIGHT speakers. Yes, a built-in If I understand you correctly, that statement is incorrect... The GS (at least my ROM 1) has one speaker (on the left hand side, under the power supply). The headphone jack is for a stereo headphone (unlike the earlier Macs), but the channels aren't distinct (they sound exactly the same). >Audio input and output would be nice, for home Stereo's and for digitizing. Well, to be nitpicky, the GS does have audio input and output. The sound connector on the GS motherboard has both an input for the Ensoniq A/D converter, and an output (up to 8 channels). > Adam Ford >--- >ProLine: aford@pro-mansion | Please Support the Apple II >Internet: aford@pro-mansion | >UUCP: crash!pro-mansion!aford | Line of computers. >ARPA: crash!pro-mansion!aford@nosc.mil | >BitNet: aford%pro-mansion.cts.com@nosc.mil | I agree wholeheartedly! ------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ -- David Huang | "Calzoni Pizza: Internet: daveh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu | Delivery in six UUCP: ..!ut-emx!ccwf.cc.utexas.edu!daveh | hours, or else your America Online: DrWho29 | pizza is cold."
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (04/01/91)
In article <8311@crash.cts.com> aford@pro-mansion.cts.com (Adam Ford) writes: >Couldn't the ROM just have an extra card like a ZIP Chip or Transwarp in a >slot or something? Please look up "ROM" in any dictionary of computerese. If you mean, couldn't an enhanged IIGS have a card..., well, yes, that's what we CURRENTLY have to do for both stereo output and processor speed. The main problem with speeds much beyond the 10MHz or so that is already attainable through accelerators is that there is a serious bottleneck in the mother board, which limits access to main and display RAM to speeds MUCH slower than the 25MHz that was being bandied about. There is only so much that RAM caching on the accelerator itself can do about this. >As far as Stereo, the IIgs has LEFT & RIGHT speakers. Yes, a built-in >Audio input and output would be nice, for home Stereo's and for digitizing. What in the world are you talking about? I don't think even the 1Mbyte (so-called "ROM 3") Apple IIGS provides stereo output without the use of an add-on third-party gizmo (some of which support audio digitizing). There IS a built-in audio output, but it's monaural! >But, by having third-party companies make them, it leaves more for >compatibility. If you buy a Sonic Blaster from AE, you get software for >THAT and it uses ALL it's features. If apple made one, software companies >may not be as good.. My experience has been quite the opposite -- software companies have said in the past that they wouldn't ship products that require anything other than what Apple provides with the computer. A few have relaxed that to require more than the basic 256Kbytes of RAM, because no useful program for the IIGS desktop environment could live with so little memory. (I don't think even GS/OS itself can, these days.) Sierra said that they had conducted a survey to determine what interest there might be in a special offer for TWGSes in conjunction with their SCI- based games, because they deemed that without a TWGS their customers would be dissatisfied with the performance of their software. However, nothing seems to have come from that. Many of us don't think Sierra was serious about finding ways to support the IIGS in recent years; my own guess is that Ken Williams had decided against it and all the rest was just to convey the impression that they had good reasons instead of arbitrary ones.
aford@pro-mansion.cts.com (Adam Ford) (04/03/91)
In-Reply-To: message from MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET
Well, look at the ROM 01 then ROM 02 then ROM 3. The ROM 02 was killed off
fast. My friend has an 02. Software companies (acording my dealer) took
shortcuts, and used loop holes to make software for the ROM 01. Some of
these things (i.e. PaintWorks GOLD) cannot be used on ROM 3, because of the
companies, NOT because of Apple. I am saying, if a company makes a product
that requires software, the software would proabbly be better than if it
was made from a different company.
Adam
---
ProLine: aford@pro-mansion | Please Support the Apple II
Internet: aford@pro-mansion |
UUCP: crash!pro-mansion!aford | Line of computers.
ARPA: crash!pro-mansion!aford@nosc.mil |
BitNet: aford%pro-mansion.cts.com@nosc.mil |
aford@pro-mansion.cts.com (Adam Ford) (04/03/91)
In-Reply-To: message from daveh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
When I refer to Left & Right speakers, I am talking about either
headphones, or hooking it up to a home stereo unit. The MONO speaked in my
opinion in the IIgs, should be replaces with something better...
---
ProLine: aford@pro-mansion | Please Support the Apple II
Internet: aford@pro-mansion |
UUCP: crash!pro-mansion!aford | Line of computers.
ARPA: crash!pro-mansion!aford@nosc.mil |
BitNet: aford%pro-mansion.cts.com@nosc.mil |
dlyons@Apple.COM (David A. Lyons) (04/04/91)
In article <8359@crash.cts.com> aford@pro-mansion.cts.com (Adam Ford) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET > >Well, look at the ROM 01 then ROM 02 then ROM 3. The ROM 02 was killed off >fast. My friend has an 02. Software companies (acording my dealer) took >shortcuts, and used loop holes to make software for the ROM 01. Some of >these things (i.e. PaintWorks GOLD) cannot be used on ROM 3, because of the >companies, NOT because of Apple. I am saying, if a company makes a product >that requires software, the software would proabbly be better than if it >was made from a different company. > >Adam Eh? The only three ROM versions for the GS are ROM 0 (the first one, from which you could and can get a free upgrade to ROM 1), ROM 01 (which says "ROM Version 01" on the bottom line of the screen when you boot), and ROM 03 (which says "ROM Version 3" on the bottom line of the screen when you boot). There was never a ROM 02; it was skipped so that starting with 3 "ROM N" would be the Nth version, not the (N+1)th version. In the case of PaintWorks Gold, I believe it *does* work on ROM 3 with a simple (one-byte?) patch available on many services (and probably posted here in the past); at least, the patch makes it work if you have enough memory on your ROM 3 machine--you probably need at least 1.5 megs. Ideally, third parties write their programs perfectly and they continue to work on future hardware, future ROMs, and future system disks. It doesn't always happen that way. If I had a way to write the toolbox so that *future* incompatibilities would show up in the present, that would be an amazing help. A big problem is applications that aren't really doing something "right," but there's no good way to detect it ahead of time. -- David A. Lyons, Apple Computer, Inc. | DAL Systems Apple II System Software Engineer | P.O. Box 875 America Online: Dave Lyons | Cupertino, CA 95015-0875 GEnie: D.LYONS2 or DAVE.LYONS CompuServe: 72177,3233 Internet/BITNET: dlyons@apple.com UUCP: ...!ames!apple!dlyons My opinions are my own, not Apple's.
shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) (04/04/91)
In article <8359@crash.cts.com> aford@pro-mansion.cts.com (Adam Ford) writes: >Well, look at the ROM 01 then ROM 02 then ROM 3. The ROM 02 was killed off >fast. My friend has an 02. No he doesn't. We never made a ROM 02 machine. We went straight from ROM 01 to ROM 03 because internally we referred to the ROM 01 machine as the ROM 2.0 machine because we had a ROM 00 machine (the stuff that the GS first shipped with before we gave the upgrade to ROM 01). Before our customers and developers got too confused, we changed the external version number to match what the internal version number of the ROM actually was (and actually, it matches the QuickDraw II major release number). So yeah, ROM 00 was actually ROM 1.0, ROM 01 was ROM 2.0, and ROM 03 was ROM 3.0, we skipped ROM 02. andy -- Andy Nicholas GEnie & America-Online: shrinkit Apple IIGS System Software CompuServe: 70771,2615 Apple Computer, Inc. InterNET: shrinkit@apple.com
daveh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (David H. Huang) (04/05/91)
In article <8359@crash.cts.com> aford@pro-mansion.cts.com (Adam Ford) writes: >Well, look at the ROM 01 then ROM 02 then ROM 3. The ROM 02 was killed off >fast. My friend has an 02. Software companies (acording my dealer) took There's a lot of confusion on this subject... There is no GS ROM 02 in it anywhere! The original ROM was the ROM 00 or ROM 1.0, when you boot that one, you just get an "Apple //gs" at the top of the screen. The upgraded ROM is the ROM 01 or ROM 2.0, when you boot that, "Apple //gs" shows up at the top, and there's something about ROM 01 and a copyright message from Apple (and Microsoft??) at the bottom of the screen. The newest is the ROM 3 or ROM 3.0(??). Unfortunately, I haven't seen a ROM 3 before, so I don't know what it shows when you boot it. It seems that people were confused between the ROM 0x format and the ROM y.0 format, so Apple just made everything the same... >ProLine: aford@pro-mansion | Please Support the Apple II >Internet: aford@pro-mansion | >UUCP: crash!pro-mansion!aford | Line of computers. >ARPA: crash!pro-mansion!aford@nosc.mil | >BitNet: aford%pro-mansion.cts.com@nosc.mil | -- David Huang | "Calzoni Pizza: Internet: daveh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu | Delivery in six UUCP: ..!ut-emx!ccwf.cc.utexas.edu!daveh | hours, or else your America Online: DrWho29 | pizza is cold."
daveh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (David H. Huang) (04/05/91)
In article <8360@crash.cts.com> aford@pro-mansion.cts.com (Adam Ford) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from daveh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu > >When I refer to Left & Right speakers, I am talking about either >headphones, or hooking it up to a home stereo unit. The MONO speaked in my >opinion in the IIgs, should be replaces with something better... As I said in my earlier message, the headphone jack is for stereo headphones, but the channels aren't discrete, so you don't get any stereo separation. You need some circuitry to decode the channel signals to get stereo (or 8 speaker surround sound). I agree with you completely, the speaker in the IIgs sucks big time and should definitely be replaced! -- David Huang | "Calzoni Pizza: Internet: daveh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu | Delivery in six UUCP: ..!ut-emx!ccwf.cc.utexas.edu!daveh | hours, or else your America Online: DrWho29 | pizza is cold."