steveh@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (Steven Howell) (04/08/91)
Hi. I have a question concerning the apple II and the SCSI interface card. I would like to know a few things about it, before i consider buying one. Some of the things that spring to mind are, can an apple II make use of up to 13ms access times SCSI drives offer. can it be a single partition,reguardless of size. cad it use DOS 3.3 or UniDOS 3.3. can it boot from the drive under dos 3.3 or unidos can i create 5.25' allocations and copy protected software to them. is it as useful as having a HD on a mac. well, thats all i can think of. If you have any replies, they will be greatfully accepted. thanks in advance. steveh
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (04/09/91)
In article <steveh.671118091@tasman> steveh@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (Steven Howell) writes: >can an apple II make use of up to 13ms access times SCSI drives offer. Sure, why not. >can it be a single partition,reguardless of size. Not if you want it to work with standard Apple operating systems. There is an upper limit of 32MB for a ProDOS filesystem (partition). >cad it use DOS 3.3 or UniDOS 3.3. Why would you want to? >can it boot from the drive under dos 3.3 or unidos I suspect that DOS 3.3 variants would not understand the SCSI hardware. >can i create 5.25' allocations and copy protected software to them. I don't understand this question. You can copy protected software anyway, but the copy probably wouldn't work. >is it as useful as having a HD on a mac. I don't know how useful a Macintosh HD is, but certainly a hard disk is extremely useful on an Apple IIGS. For a //e, it would depend on what your requirements are. If you're trying to do software development (for example, using Aztec C), then I would highly recommend any supported hard disk; I used to use a 5MB ProFile on my //e and it beat the heck out of swapping floppies.
alfter@nevada.edu (SCOTT ALFTER) (04/09/91)
There are several types of SCSI cards available that will work in the IIe; the two predominant types are the Apple II High-Speed SCSI Card (by Apple) and the RAMFast SCSI card (by CVTech). Fast drives will probably benefit more from the RAMFast than Apple's card, but the RAMFast costs about twice as much as Apple's card because of the disk cache logic. The ProDOS filesystem limits partitions to a maximum of 32 megabytes each; larger drives will require you to use more than one partition. (Don't feel bad about it; MeSsy-DOS users live with the same constraints.) Normally, you can't use DOS 3.3 with a hard disk. (I don't know why you would want to use DOS 3.3 with a hard disk. DOS 3.3 is a pathetic OS, especially with its flat-filesystem structure. Besides, no new software is release under DOS 3.3 anymore. If you haven't made the switch to ProDOS yet, I suggest you make the switch now, whether you get a HD or choose to stick with a floppy-based system.) Scott Alfter-----------------------------_/_---------------------------- Support Operation Apple Storm! / v \ Apple II: Internet: alfter@uns-helios.nevada.edu ( ( the power to be your best! GEnie: S.ALFTER \_^_/
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (04/09/91)
In article <steveh.671118091@tasman> steveh@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (Steven Howell) writes: >can an apple II make use of up to 13ms access times SCSI drives offer. Well, on the //e you can acheive .5 megs/sec.. With a correct interleave, it'll probably be VERY fast. >can it be a single partition,reguardless of size. No you can have multiple partitions of 32 megabytes each. >cad it use DOS 3.3 or UniDOS 3.3. It doesn't use "real" DOS 3.3 but there is a program called DOS MASTER that will put pseudo-dos 3.3 volumes on a hard drive. They are really contained within files on the PRoDOS volume I believe. I call it "pseudo," because it truly is not really DOS 3.3, but it seems most old file games work on a DOS 3.3 I have on 3.5" drives, and I've heard that Dos Master behaves well too. >can i create 5.25' allocations and copy protected software to them. Nope. That's not possible. >is it as useful as having a HD on a mac. OF COURSE it is as useful! -- /unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu Apple IIGS Forever! ULTIMA VI GS -mail me. CDs-mail me\ \ McIntosh Junior: The Power to Crush the Other Kids. /
M_Ray_Brooksby@cup.portal.com (04/09/91)
Someone asked why would you every want to run DOS 3.3 from a hardisk. The obvious answer is there is still some great software only remembered in the DOS 3.3 format. M. Ray Brooksby RayB@cup.portal.com I'm full of opionions...none of which belong to anybody...
MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (04/09/91)
On Mon, 8 Apr 91 13:41:31 GMT Steven Howell said: > >I have a question concerning the apple II and the SCSI interface card. > >I would like to know a few things about it, before i consider buying one. >Some of the things that spring to mind are, >can it be a single partition,reguardless of size. Your partition size is limited by the operating system you are using. DOS 3.3 = 400k/volume ProDOS & GS/OS = 32meg/volume You may have only one partition, if you wish, but if your drive is larger than 32megs, you're wasting space >cad it use DOS 3.3 or UniDOS 3.3. The drive & hardware will allow any operating you can put on it, the problem is getting software to format it to the operating you want (It's not really that much of a problem). I have no idea about UniDOS 3.3. Isn't that just for 3.5" disks? >can it boot from the drive under dos 3.3 or unidos Yes for DOS 3.3... don't know 'bout unidos. >can i create 5.25' allocations and copy protected software to them. No. Protected software accesses the hardware electronics of the 5.25" drives directly, so, even if you COULD (which you can't) copy them to 140k partitions on the HD, the program would still try to load itself from a 5.25" drive. >is it as useful as having a HD on a mac. Yip, if you're using ProDOS or GS/OS... I doubt it would be as useful with DOS 3.3, but it's definitely more useful than 140k floppies (or 800k floppies). > accepted. > >thanks in advance. > >steveh ---------------------------------------- BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm <------------send files here pro-line-- mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com
whitewolf@gnh-starport.cts.com (Tae Song) (04/13/91)
|Someone asked why would you every want to run DOS 3.3 from a hardisk. The |obvious answer is there is still some great software only remembered in the |DOS 3.3 format. NOTE: This is to the NET!!! There is a program that let's you run programs off the HD using DOS 3.3. It's called DOS Master and written by Glen Bredon of ProSel fame. I forget how much it was. Sorry, also don't have Glen's address on hand... whitewolf@gnh-starport!info-apple
whitewolf@gnh-starport.cts.com (Tae Song) (04/13/91)
|>I have a question concerning the apple II and the SCSI interface card. |> |>I would like to know a few things about it, before i consider buying one. |>Some of the things that spring to mind are, |>can it be a single partition,reguardless of size. | |Your partition size is limited by the operating system you are using. |DOS 3.3 = 400k/volume |ProDOS & GS/OS = 32meg/volume |You may have only one partition, if you wish, but if your drive is larger |than 32megs, you're wasting space You can have _2_ partition under ProDOS, and more through software, or if you get the RamFAST card you have upto 8 partitions. You can formatted to ProDOS then use DOS Master setup a DOS 3.3 type partition on the HD. whitewolf@gnh-starport!info-apple
scottr@gnh-applesauce.cts.com (Scott Rothstein) (04/15/91)
I don't believe that there's a 32meg limit to GS/OS -- only Prodos (and maybe P16). //////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \ Internet: scottr@gnh-applesauce.cts.com /\ I.D.F.: /\ 'tis but / / AKA: Monte \/ no retreat \/ a scratch \ \ Applesauce BBS: (212) 721-4122 /\ no surrender /\ -- M.P. / /--------------------------------------------------------------------------\ \ Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary, / / -- Edgar Allan Poe \ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\//////////////////////////////////////
tsouth@techbook.com (Todd South) (04/16/91)
In article <m0jSHvu-00005tC@jartel.info.com> scottr@gnh-applesauce.cts.com (Scott Rothstein) writes: >I don't believe that there's a 32meg limit to GS/OS -- only Prodos (and maybe >P16). >\ Internet: scottr@gnh-applesauce.cts.com /\ I.D.F.: /\ 'tis but / Correct me if I'm wrong. While this is technically true there are no writeable/eraseable FST's for GS/OS other than ProDOS _at this time_ and until one is released we are still stuck with a 32 meg limit per partition. Now something else is probably on the drawing board from recent vaporrumors but until something is released we cannot write to devices larger than 32 megs. Todd... -- -- tsouth@techbook.COM ...!{tektronix!nosun,uunet}techbook!tsouth Public Access UNIX at (503) 644-8135 (1200/2400) Voice: +1 503 646-8257 Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) (04/16/91)
In article <1991Apr16.031753.6876@techbook.com> tsouth@techbook.com (Todd South) writes: >In article <m0jSHvu-00005tC@jartel.info.com> scottr@gnh-applesauce.cts.com >(Scott Rothstein) writes: >>I don't believe that there's a 32meg limit to GS/OS -- only Prodos (and maybe >>P16). >Correct me if I'm wrong. While this is technically true there are no >writeable/eraseable FST's for GS/OS other than ProDOS _at this time_ >and until one is released we are still stuck with a 32 meg limit per >partition. Well you can use the AppleShare FST to read/write to a very large volume, and of course you can read large CD-ROM's. Philip McDunnough philip@utstat.utoronto.ca [my opinions,etc...]
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (04/17/91)
In article <1991Apr16.082141.7228@utstat.uucp> philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) writes: >Well you can use the AppleShare FST to read/write to a very large volume, >and of course you can read large CD-ROM's. I don't think the AppleShare FST can be used with a local disk, can it? Also, there don't seem to be all that many ISO format CD-ROMS that are of any use to Apple II(GS) users.
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (04/17/91)
M_Ray_Brooksby@cup.portal.com writes: >Someone asked why would you every want to run DOS 3.3 from a hardisk. The >obvious answer is there is still some great software only remembered in the >DOS 3.3 format. Remembered? I am unfamiliar with that usage. If you mean it only works under DOS 3.3, there are various patches you can make to DOS 3.3 file games to make them work under ProDOS. The most common problem are files which start at $07FD, which is protected under ProDOS. By removing this opening vector, adding a new vector at $0800 to a space after the program, and adding code to restore those three bytes and jump to where the $07FD vector pointed at makes most games work. I did this to a lot of mine when I got tired of all those 5.25" DOS 3.3 disks. If you are thinking about copying some old games on self-booting non-standard protected DOS, that isn't really possible, without some major deprotection and re-writing of code. This is regardless of whether you format your drive with a special DOS 3.3 or ProDOS. They were meant to be booted, so boot them. With special hard drive DOS 3.3, you aren't guaranteed that it will work with all your DOS 3.3 programs. It is about time you gave up the archaic system and get with the rest of the Apple II world with ProDOS. >M. Ray Brooksby >RayB@cup.portal.com >I'm full of opionions...none of which belong to anybody... -- /// ____ \\\ "It says, `Golgafrincham Ark Fleet, Ship B, Hold 7, Telephone | |/ / \ \| | Sanitizer, Second Class,' and a serial number." "A telephone \\_(\____/)_// sanitizer? A dead telephone sanitizer?" "Best greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu kind." "But what's he doing here?" "Not a lot."
bh1e+@andrew.cmu.edu (Brendan Gallagher Hoar) (04/18/91)
Hmmm...how about getting all those DOS 3.3 file games that are in 'quickload' format to work under ProDOS? I recall some games that when 'BRUN' (notice the caps! :) ) would trash, the text screen, put up a little 'QUICKLOAD' or something logo and pull all the data off the disk furiously (Seemingly thru locations in the text screen - the garbage on the screen changed from sector to sector). Brendan G. Hoar bh1e+@andrew.cmu.edu Apartment 1 Carnegie Mellon, Inc. 357 Melwood Ave. Pittsburgh, PA 15213 (412) 621-8278
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (04/21/91)
bh1e+@andrew.cmu.edu (Brendan Gallagher Hoar) writes: >Hmmm...how about getting all those DOS 3.3 file games that are in >'quickload' format to work under ProDOS? Those still have me stumped. Whenever I try to copy them directly to ProDOS, it doesn't get the whole file, just that opening code which does the graphic display and loads the rest. >I recall some games that when 'BRUN' (notice the caps! :) ) would >trash, the text screen, put up a little 'QUICKLOAD' or something logo >and pull all the data off the disk furiously (Seemingly thru locations >in the text screen - the garbage on the screen changed from sector to >sector). Note that this could be confused with programs that load in starting at $3FD instead of the $7FD I mentioned earlier. With those, you just have to strip off that text screen up to $800 and do the same patch from then on. If the text screen is doing some garbage spinning, then it is actually executing some code, and that's the kind that I'm working on. For those programs, you can just boot off your DOS 3.3 disk and run them. You should still switch to ProDOS, and use DOS only when you need to. >Brendan G. Hoar bh1e+@andrew.cmu.edu >Apartment 1 Carnegie Mellon, Inc. >357 Melwood Ave. >Pittsburgh, PA 15213 >(412) 621-8278 -- /// ____ \\\ "It says, `Golgafrincham Ark Fleet, Ship B, Hold 7, Telephone | |/ / \ \| | Sanitizer, Second Class,' and a serial number." "A telephone \\_(\____/)_// sanitizer? A dead telephone sanitizer?" "Best greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu kind." "But what's he doing here?" "Not a lot."
toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) (04/21/91)
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) writes: >bh1e+@andrew.cmu.edu (Brendan Gallagher Hoar) writes: >>Hmmm...how about getting all those DOS 3.3 file games that are in >>'quickload' format to work under ProDOS? >Those still have me stumped. Whenever I try to copy them directly to >ProDOS, it doesn't get the whole file, just that opening code which does >the graphic display and loads the rest. What's going on is the actual file on disk is huge, but the file length is set to just the opening code. What happens is, slow DOS loads the opening code and runs it; the opening code figures out where it came from and blasts the rest of the file into memory, using the text screen as scratch space for the disk routines. Such loaders are almost definitely Disk ][ or Dos 3.3 specific, and you are not going to be able to get them to work under ProDOS without patching them. Todd Whitesel toddpw @ tybalt.caltech.edu
alfter@nevada.edu (SCOTT ALFTER) (04/22/91)
In article <1991Apr20.231612.22116@nntp-server.caltech.edu> toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) writes: >What's going on is the actual file on disk is huge, but the file length is >set to just the opening code... >...Such loaders are almost definitely Disk ][ or Dos 3.3 >specific, and you are not going to be able to get them to work under ProDOS >without patching them.... ...or deleting them. As you mentioned, the purpose of the loader was to keep molasses-slow DOS 3.3 from loading the whole program in one shot. ProDOS is fast enough, though. Once you have the complete file on a ProDOS disk (fix the file length under DOS 3.3 to do this), just BLOAD the file into place and find the end of the loader. Once you've found it, BSAVE it back to disk, sans loader. It should now work with no problems. (I've even hacked some of the old games into SYS files that call the ProDOS QUIT code when you hit Control-Reset. Play a few rounds of Pac-Man, for instance, and when you're sick of it, hit Control-Reset and you're back in Davex. Slick, ain't it? :-) ) Scott Alfter-----------------------------_/_---------------------------- Support Operation Apple Storm! / v \ Apple II: Internet: alfter@uns-helios.nevada.edu ( ( the power to be your best! GEnie: S.ALFTER \_^_/