bazyar@ernie (Jawaid Bazyar) (04/18/91)
Nyeah Nyeah Nyeah Nyeah Nyeah ! As of tomorrow, 2pm, my GS will be sporting a 17MHz ASIC prototype chip. This thing is REAL, it EXISTS, and I'm gonna have one. :-) Seriously, though, Tony said I could tell y'all of it's existence, but not any specifics. I'll keep to my word. I thought it'd be best if I went ahead and reminded you of the Great Silicon Hope for the ][gs... -- Jawaid Bazyar | "Twenty seven faces- with their eyes turned to Senior/Computer Engineering | the sky. I have got a camera, and an airtight bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu | alibi.." Apple II Forever! | I need a job... Be priviliged to pay me! :-)
THINGVOL@LAX.WISC.EDU (04/18/91)
(whine mode) Only 17 Mhz?!?!! But I want a 33 Mhz chip? (whine off) Hey, this is GREAT!!! Daniel Thingvold thingvol@lax.wisc.edu
EWINGRA@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU (04/18/91)
17 MHz? Not bad for a start but we were promosed 20! ;-) Gee, and just what kind of accelerator board could possibly handle that speed??? Hmmmmmmm......<with an Arsenio Hall point> --Rick Ewing Vanderbilt University
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (04/18/91)
In article <7F9C8668A00012E5@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu> EWINGRA@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU writes: >17 MHz? Not bad for a start but we were promosed 20! ;-) 25, not 20! But they seem to have jumped from the 13-15 mhz ones that were coming out originally. God there might be a decent market for this thing! I bet Nintendo might buy 'em, and GS accellerators, etc. -- /unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu Apple IIGS Forever! WANT ULTIMA VI //e or GS?-mail me.\ \CHEAP CDs info-mail me. McIntosh Junior: The Power to Crush the Other Kids. /
daveh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Dave Huang) (04/18/91)
In article <1991Apr17.213524.5010@m.cs.uiuc.edu> bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu (Jawaid Bazyar) writes: >Nyeah Nyeah Nyeah Nyeah Nyeah ! Well, gee, you could be more mature about it! :-) :-) > As of tomorrow, 2pm, my GS will be sporting a 17MHz ASIC prototype >chip. This thing is REAL, it EXISTS, and I'm gonna have one. :-) Great! Is there any pricing info on it yet? Hopefully, it won't be too much more than WDC's chip... >-- >Jawaid Bazyar | "Twenty seven faces- with their eyes turned to >Senior/Computer Engineering | the sky. I have got a camera, and an airtight >bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu | alibi.." > Apple II Forever! | I need a job... Be priviliged to pay me! :-) -- David Huang | Internet: daveh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu | "How much is that hamster UUCP: ..!ut-emx!ccwf.cc.utexas.edu!daveh | in the window?" America Online: DrWho29 |
shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) (04/19/91)
In article <1991Apr17.213524.5010@m.cs.uiuc.edu> bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu (Jawaid Bazyar) writes: > As of tomorrow, 2pm, my GS will be sporting a 17MHz ASIC prototype >chip. This thing is REAL, it EXISTS, and I'm gonna have one. :-) > Seriously, though, Tony said I could tell y'all of it's existence, >but not any specifics. I'll keep to my word. Pardon, but I have been around for the last 2 years listening to Tony Fadell tell the world of his 'super-816,' and quite frankly I don't believe him any more. I've met the guy personally and talked to him (not in the last year), and I _still_ doubt that he's going to be able to come through. I would dearly like to be proven wrong, but I don't see that happening. andy -- Andy Nicholas GEnie & America-Online: shrinkit Apple IIGS System Software CompuServe: 70771,2615 Apple Computer, Inc. InterNET: shrinkit@apple.com
taob@pnet91.cts.com (Brian Tao) (04/19/91)
From bazyar@ernie (Jawaid Bazyar): > Nyeah Nyeah Nyeah Nyeah Nyeah ! > > As of tomorrow, 2pm, my GS will be sporting a 17MHz ASIC prototype > chip. This thing is REAL, it EXISTS, and I'm gonna have one. :-) > > Seriously, though, Tony said I could tell y'all of it's existence, > but not any specifics. I'll keep to my word. > > I thought it'd be best if I went ahead and reminded you of the Great > Silicon Hope for the ][gs... Awwwwww.... geez, Jawaid, howcum you get all the good stuff??? :) Watch that the chip doesn't melt down the rest of your system from the excessive CPU speeds! Any indication from Tony when we will be seeing some of these chips in production? They don't have to be the 25-MHz screamers, I would be satisfied with a plain 17-MHz 65816... ;) Brian T. Tao *B-) | t569taob@bluffs.scar.utoronto.ca | "Though this be U of Metro Toronto | - or - | madness, yet there Scarberia, ON | taob@pnet91.cts.com | is method in 't."
bazyar@ernie (Jawaid Bazyar) (04/19/91)
In article <51671@apple.Apple.COM> shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) writes: >Pardon, but I have been around for the last 2 years listening to Tony Fadell >tell the world of his 'super-816,' and quite frankly I don't believe him any >more. I've met the guy personally and talked to him (not in the last year), >and I _still_ doubt that he's going to be able to come through. > >I would dearly like to be proven wrong, but I don't see that happening. Sure thing, Andy. I hate to burst your bubble, but it's in my machine right now, I'm using it to dial in to post this message. -- Jawaid Bazyar | "Twenty seven faces- with their eyes turned to Senior/Computer Engineering | the sky. I have got a camera, and an airtight bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu | alibi.." Apple II Forever! | I need a job... Be priviliged to pay me! :-)
meekins@tortoise.cis.ohio-state.edu (timothy lee meekins) (04/19/91)
In article <1991Apr18.190155.5198@m.cs.uiuc.edu> bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu (Jawaid Bazyar) writes: > Sure thing, Andy. I hate to burst your bubble, but it's in my machine >right now, I'm using it to dial in to post this message. > Question: "How are you running/using the ASIC?" Can you physically replace the Apple's 65816 and crystal or do you need a TWGS or ZIP? Does the ASIC have different power consumptions than WDC/GTE chips? To use a chip >10 Mhz typically needs a larger power supply. Can I assume the ASIC is low power? I guess what I am asking is: What does someone need to use the ASIC assuming it actually becomes available this decade? -tim -- +---------------------------S-U-P-P-O-R-T-----------------------------------+ |/ Tim Meekins <<>> Snail Mail: <<>> Apple II \| |> meekins@cis.ohio-state.edu <<>> 8372 Morris Rd. <<>> Forever! <| |\ timm@pro-tcc.cts.com <<>> Hilliard, OH 43026 <<>> /|
bazyar@ernie (Jawaid Bazyar) (04/19/91)
In article <109618@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> meekins@tortoise.cis.ohio-state.edu (timothy lee meekins) writes: >Question: > "How are you running/using the ASIC?" It's just plugged into my motherboard right now, 2.8MHz. I'm basically just testing it. >Can you physically replace the Apple's 65816 and crystal or do you need >a TWGS or ZIP? You can't speed up the motherboard without an accelerator. Apple engineers have stated, however, that by making a few simple changes to take advantage of the ASICs page-mode RAM addressing, that they can up the motherboard to 8MHz with no problem. >Does the ASIC have different power consumptions than WDC/GTE chips? To use >a chip >10 Mhz typically needs a larger power supply. Can I assume the ASIC >is low power? I let it run all afternoon while I was gone. I came back and it wasn't warm to the touch, which indicates it's power consumption is pretty low (it is CMOS, after all). Considering that certain ROM 03 power supplies failed because the system didn't draw enough current from them, there should be no problem. >I guess what I am asking is: What does someone need to use the ASIC assuming >it actually becomes available this decade? Obviously to get any benefit from it some sort of accelerator card is necessary. I'll test it first on a Transwarp, then depending on how it works I'll buy a Zip (sorry, Albert) and crank away. FYI, I called Zip and they said that their computer simulations say that the Zip card should work up to 20MHz. They can't say for sure because they've never had a processor to test it with. Oh, and get this: They took a Zip and and hopped it up to 14MHz (the whole power supply, etc shebang). Then they did all the same mods to a Transwarp and could only get 11MHz out of it. Meaning the Zip is a whole lot more robust (nothing I didn't already know). I'm going to be really careful about what I say from now on, so don't expect too much, folks. -- Jawaid Bazyar | "Twenty seven faces- with their eyes turned to Senior/Computer Engineering | the sky. I have got a camera, and an airtight bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu | alibi.." Apple II Forever! | I need a job... Be priviliged to pay me! :-)
knauer@cs.uiuc.edu (Rob Knauerhase) (04/19/91)
In <1991Apr19.002759.28135@m.cs.uiuc.edu> bazyar@ernie (Jawaid Bazyar) writes: > I let it [ASIC 65816]run all afternoon while I was gone. I came back and it > wasn't warm to the touch, which indicates it's power consumption is pretty >low (it is CMOS, after all). But did you remember to leave it running something computationally intensive, so it would be sure to get hot? <grin> :) Rob -- Robert C. Knauerhase University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign "I get my exercise acting as Dept. of Computer Science, Gigabit Study Group pallbearer for my friends knauer@cs.uiuc.edu, rck@ces.cwru.edu who exercise..." knauer@scivax.lerc.nasa.gov
EWINGRA@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU (04/19/91)
OK, well then how is it????????? Just don't leave us hanging.... --Rick Ewing Vanderbilt University
jmueller@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu (Jim Mueller) (04/19/91)
In article <1991Apr19.002759.28135@m.cs.uiuc.edu> bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu (Jawaid Bazyar) writes: > FYI, I called Zip and they said that their computer simulations say that >the Zip card should work up to 20MHz. They can't say for sure because they've >never had a processor to test it with. Oh, and get this: They took a Zip and >and hopped it up to 14MHz (the whole power supply, etc shebang). Then they >did all the same mods to a Transwarp and could only get 11MHz out of it. >Meaning the Zip is a whole lot more robust (nothing I didn't already know) > >Jawaid Bazyar I recall Bill Heineman stating he tried upgrading his zip chip by changing crystals, poswer supply, etc, and only get it up to 10 Mhz whereas with the TWGS he has it running at roughly 13Mhz. Apparently Zip knows something Bill does not. Personally, I favor the simpler design of the Zip. Wow, 20Mhz... If only they had a decent size cache now. -- |Jim Mueller | |Internet: jmueller@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu | |The University of Iowa | |"Many truths we cling to...greatly to our own point of view do they depend."|
dat33228@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Derek A. Taubert) (04/19/91)
In article <51671@apple.Apple.COM> shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) writes: > >Pardon, but I have been around for the last 2 years listening to Tony Fadell >tell the world of his 'super-816,' and quite frankly I don't believe him any >more. I've met the guy personally and talked to him (not in the last year), >and I _still_ doubt that he's going to be able to come through. > >I would dearly like to be proven wrong, but I don't see that happening. > >andy > Well, let me be the second to tell you that it is here. It's just running as a 2.8 MHz chip in the cpu right now (in Jawaid's machine). Soon, however, if I can ever get jawaid to give it up, it will be zipping along in my Transwarp, and we'll probably not be able to tell you how it did until Tony says so. We intend to push it to it's limits, and keep on Tony until this screaming 65816 is a reality. Yea, 17MHz. Don't worry, it's a prototype, and Tony's got lots of tricks left, I know it will get faster. -- + Derek Taubert --> derek@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu + Author of : GScii+ + + dat33228@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu + and other neat stuff to come + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Access to computers - and anything which might teach you something about + + the way the world works - should be unlimited and total. Always yield to + + the Hands-On Imperative! +
dat33228@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Derek A. Taubert) (04/19/91)
In article <622@generic.UUCP> taob@pnet91.cts.com (Brian Tao) writes: > Awwwwww.... geez, Jawaid, howcum you get all the good stuff??? :) Watch But it was my idea to call Tony!! :-> -- + Derek Taubert --> derek@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu + Author of : GScii+ + + dat33228@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu + and other neat stuff to come + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Access to computers - and anything which might teach you something about + + the way the world works - should be unlimited and total. Always yield to + + the Hands-On Imperative! +
taob@pnet91.cts.com (Brian Tao) (04/19/91)
From bazyar@ernie (Jawaid Bazyar): > In article <51671@apple.Apple.COM> shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) > writes: > >>Pardon, but I have been around for the last 2 years listening to Tony Fadell >>tell the world of his 'super-816,' and quite frankly I don't believe him any >>more. I've met the guy personally and talked to him (not in the last year), >>and I _still_ doubt that he's going to be able to come through. >> >>I would dearly like to be proven wrong, but I don't see that happening. I wish Andy wouldn't come along and bring everyone down when we get a bit of good news for the GS. No personal flame intended, Andy. I know that keeping a reality check once in a while is good, but if you have a live chip running in your GS, then that's good enough for me. > Sure thing, Andy. I hate to burst your bubble, but it's in my machine > right now, I'm using it to dial in to post this message. Can you tell us about any quirks or incompatibilities? How does it work with ProTerm 2.2, or other interrupt-driven programs? Questions, questions... Brian T. Tao *B-) | t569taob@bluffs.scar.utoronto.ca | "Though this be U of Metro Toronto | - or - | madness, yet there Scarberia, ON | taob@pnet91.cts.com | is method in 't."
toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) (04/20/91)
jmueller@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu (Jim Mueller) writes: >I recall Bill Heineman stating he tried upgrading his zip chip by changing >crystals, poswer supply, etc, and only get it up to 10 Mhz whereas with >the TWGS he has it running at roughly 13Mhz. Apparently Zip knows something >Bill does not. Personally, I favor the simpler design of the Zip. Wow, 20Mhz... >If only they had a decent size cache now. What's wrong with 64k? Caches above 64-128k generally don't justify their extra cost. Todd Whitesel toddpw @ tybalt.caltech.edu
shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) (04/20/91)
In article <1991Apr18.190155.5198@m.cs.uiuc.edu> bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu (Jawaid Bazyar) writes: >>Pardon, but I have been around for the last 2 years listening to Tony Fadell >>tell the world of his 'super-816,' and quite frankly I don't believe him any >>more. I've met the guy personally and talked to him (not in the last year), >>and I _still_ doubt that he's going to be able to come through. >> >>I would dearly like to be proven wrong, but I don't see that happening. > > Sure thing, Andy. I hate to burst your bubble, but it's in my machine >right now, I'm using it to dial in to post this message. No problem. I don't have any hangups on ASIC. I hope they deliver; however, I'd also like to point out that just because you post to the net saying that you have one in your GS doesn't make it real. And, until your average Joe User or Joe Company can call somebody up and order thousands of them, the chip is practically useless except to those privileged few who have them. If only 10 or 20 chips exist, what good are they? Also, having a DIP 65816 running in a GS isn't amazing. We (Apple) do it all the time in the regular GS (ie, "ho hum"). Sorry guy, but I'm not going to believe this thing exists until I I see one work at the speeds claimed with my own eyes. I believed ASIC the first time they came around with their chip. "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." andy -- Andy Nicholas GEnie & America-Online: shrinkit Apple IIGS System Software CompuServe: 70771,2615 Apple Computer, Inc. InterNET: shrinkit@apple.com
MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (04/20/91)
So.... does this 17Mhz ASIC mean that the Apple II is now faster than a Mac II?????? :) ---------------------------------------- BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm <------------send files here pro-line-- mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com
greggb@pro-fred.cts.com (System Administrator) (04/20/91)
In-Reply-To: message from bazyar@ernie
Alright Jawaid,
If this chip is reality, answer just one question for the inquiring minds
in netland: Is this chip 1) a direct replacement for the 65c816, 2) on
its own card, or 3) an add on for another vendor's card? (Vendor name
please... :)
Is that so much to ask?
Gregg
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ProLine : greggb@pro-fred InterNET : greggb@pro-fred.cts.com
UUCP : crash!pnet01!pro-fred!greggb
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Listening for wisdom, weeping bitter tears. Eyes like | REZ
diamonds hearts like steel. Murdering truth for passionless | 'n
gain. The gifted youth, kneeling at the altar of pain. | ROLL!THINGVOL@LAX.WISC.EDU (04/20/91)
Andy, Why don't you contact Tony Fadell and get a prototype chip (either for yourself or for Apple). I'm sure he would be more than happy to let you try one out. You deserve to test this out more than anybody. Daniel Thingvold thingvol@lax.wisc.edu P.S.: If Jawaid could get one, you sure can.
dat33228@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Derek A. Taubert) (04/20/91)
In article <21041921395197@lax.wisc.edu> THINGVOL@LAX.WISC.EDU writes: >Andy, > > Why don't you contact Tony Fadell and get a prototype chip (either for >yourself or for Apple). I'm sure he would be more than happy to let you >try one out. You deserve to test this out more than anybody. > >Daniel Thingvold thingvol@lax.wisc.edu > >P.S.: If Jawaid could get one, you sure can. I don't mean to burst anyone's bubble, but I'm not sure it is necessary for Tony to be giving out samples at this time. We've got to give our chip back to him, and I'm sure he doesn't have the time to be shipping prototypes all over the country to individuals. I agree, Andy is a well respected person, but Jawaid and I have been talking to Tony through most of this project, and just plain got lucky. Besides, the chip will become a reality soon enough, Tony is more that capable of seeing this thing through. So chill!!! :-) -- + Derek Taubert --> derek@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu + Author of : GScii+ + + dat33228@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu + and other neat stuff to come + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Access to computers - and anything which might teach you something about + + the way the world works - should be unlimited and total. Always yield to + + the Hands-On Imperative! +
6600prao@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Parik Rao) (04/20/91)
I think i'm missing something here. Why is this such a "top secret" project?
The way Jawaid talks, you'd think the NSA has a vested interest in the
chip or Tony fadell has used cold fusion to make the chips. Is there some
reason why the 65816 chip market is suddenly so vitally important? Don't
say Nintendo, they don't care about the chip speed/maker.
BTW, didn't tony say that "a large texas company" had bought the rights
to the chip about 1 year ago? And now, AE techs state emphatically that
they have NO PLANS WHATSOEVER to upgrade the chip speed beyond 7 mhz (claiming
the 32k cache is 'ns).
I am very confused... maybe I'm just misinterpreting Jawaid's stance as a
beta-tester/developer relation, but it seems to me that giving a chip to 1
person and saying "here, do whatever" hardly constitutes a trial run of
it. I thought the 65816asic wasn't even pin compatible with the wdc.
And I know the TWGS can't go beyond 13 mhz, and the Zip Chip around
the same (some max out at 10, a minute few at 14 [or so I'm told...
mine won't go past 10]).
--
Apple II Forever | 6600prao@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu | IBMs get the job done
Parik Rao | Amiga - for the creative mind | Class of 1994
Macintosh - buy it or Apple will sue you.bazyar@ernie (Jawaid Bazyar) (04/20/91)
In article <21041921395197@lax.wisc.edu> THINGVOL@LAX.WISC.EDU writes: >Andy, > > Why don't you contact Tony Fadell and get a prototype chip (either for >yourself or for Apple). I'm sure he would be more than happy to let you >try one out. You deserve to test this out more than anybody. I'm sure you didn't mean this exactly the way you said it, but to clarify a bit, Apple will be getting a prototype in a couple weeks too. I got one because I had been discussing performance design issues with Tony for quite a while. -- Jawaid Bazyar | "Twenty seven faces- with their eyes turned to Senior/Computer Engineering | the sky. I have got a camera, and an airtight bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu | alibi.." Apple II Forever! | I need a job... Be priviliged to pay me! :-)
bazyar@ernie (Jawaid Bazyar) (04/20/91)
In article <8686@crash.cts.com> greggb@pro-fred.cts.com (System Administrator) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from bazyar@ernie > >Alright Jawaid, > >If this chip is reality, answer just one question for the inquiring minds >in netland: Is this chip 1) a direct replacement for the 65c816, 2) on >its own card, or 3) an add on for another vendor's card? (Vendor name >please... :) > >Is that so much to ask? This is all information that has been posted on the net before and discussed (mostly in the original posts about the subject by the administrator of the UMICH FTP site (sorry I can't remember your name, it's late)). The ASIC will be a direct replacement for the '816. It will only be useful to current GS owners in a modified accelerator card, either a Zip or Transwarp depending on your bent (or what you already have). According to Zip engineers, the Zip will run at a faster all around rate than the Transwarp, but that has yet to be proven experimentally. Lastly, this chip was completely designed and simulated with a computer and guaranteed to work correctly at high clock speeds- no messy hacks like power supply fussing (ala the WDC part), or having to slow down for certain instruction sequences. -- Jawaid Bazyar | "Twenty seven faces- with their eyes turned to Senior/Computer Engineering | the sky. I have got a camera, and an airtight bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu | alibi.." Apple II Forever! | I need a job... Be priviliged to pay me! :-)
toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) (04/20/91)
6600prao@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Parik Rao) writes: >BTW, didn't tony say that "a large texas company" had bought the rights >to the chip about 1 year ago? And now, AE techs state emphatically that >they have NO PLANS WHATSOEVER to upgrade the chip speed beyond 7 mhz (claiming >the 32k cache is 'ns). That's because the TWGS would melt. Fixing it would be too much effort, and given their current attitude toward their customers... >I am very confused... maybe I'm just misinterpreting Jawaid's stance as a >beta-tester/developer relation, but it seems to me that giving a chip to 1 >person and saying "here, do whatever" hardly constitutes a trial run of >it. I thought the 65816asic wasn't even pin compatible with the wdc. I think he said he has to give it back. The chip is pin compatible, people are just confused about the difference between DIPs and PLCCs. The motherboard CPU is a DIP, but the TWGS and ZipGS use PLCC versions. The packaging is an option provided by the fab house, so they could make either if they wanted. Unless Jawaid has a socket adapter he's got to have a DIP because he said he didn't have and accelerator yet. >And I know the TWGS can't go beyond 13 mhz, and the Zip Chip around >the same (some max out at 10, a minute few at 14 [or so I'm told... >mine won't go past 10]). Zip's tech guy told me (in person, ooh ahh) that the simulator runs indicated the cache controller should run with a 20 mhz CPU. The cache hit latency is 10 ns plus the cache RAM access, and the data/tag chips are the same speed so the instant the cache hit comes in the cache data is also ready. I've just done some tests that indicate the Zip is using latch-on-write for GS bus writes, with a clocked 1 Mhz data rate storing data to the slow RAM. These tests were done on a 10 Mhz Zip with assembly routines written by myself (16x iteration of the unit macro, executed 64k times). I made the following assumptions and I believe they hold: loop is not noticably kicked from the cache (unless sever IRQ overhead occurs, like AppleTalk, which occasionally caused data points that I discarded) loop overhead is negligable (it was 3.1% at most and later 1.5%) system interrupt overhead is negligable (I used GetTick twice and subtracted to get the tick figures below; .5's indicate waffling on successive executions) except for AppleTalk (somebody opens Chooser on a Mac and whammo, I get two extra ticks in the count) The results I got: # of fast cycles average # of ticks to execute approximate time betwen slow writes 1 meg (64k * 16) operations to write (8 bit store) 3 64 1.017 uS 4-5 67 1.069 uS 6-8 67.5 1.072 uS 9 94.5 1.502 uS 10 98 1.557 uS 11 99 1.573 uS 12 110.5 1.756 uS 13 112 1.780 uS 14 120.5 1.915 uS 15 128 2.034 uS This means the Zip (at any speed) could clear the screen at 1 Mb/s if the screen clear code is a string of PHA's or something similar. I believe this is how FillRect works, so you get quickly appearing dialogs and erased windows and such. What I want to know is why the bitmap transfer code (for say, background pictures) doesn't do this for large rects. It is not hard to write code that transfers an arbitrary bitmap onto the screen at high speed using the stack mapping technique. The Zip makes the programmed move the desktop picture is currently drawn with almost as fast as stack-mapping on a stock machine... Todd Whitesel toddpw @ tybalt.caltech.edu P.S. This latch-on-write feature is partly to blame for the AppleTalk compatibility problems -- it's a long story so I won't go into it unless anybody's interested.
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (04/20/91)
In article <8686@crash.cts.com> greggb@pro-fred.cts.com (System Administrator) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from bazyar@ernie >If this chip is reality, answer just one question for the inquiring minds >in netland: Is this chip 1) a direct replacement for the 65c816, 2) on >its own card, or 3) an add on for another vendor's card? (Vendor name >please... :) Maybe you're new to the net. All of this has been talked about before. Yes, it is a direct replacement, but not on the motherboard. It won't have its own card, because they're just making the CPU, not a whole accelerator. While they realized the GS would be a good market, there are undoubtedly other potential buyers for this chip. Hell, redesigning a chip JUST for the GS market (UNFORTUNATELY) wouldn't be good business sense, if there were no other markets for the chip. (Because there's what, a million GSes out there? Probably more than half of them are in schools and won't get accelerators.. The rest of the people probably won't get accelerators or have TWGSes, which apparently won't be able to use this chip) -- /unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu Apple IIGS Forever! WANT ULTIMA VI //e or GS?-mail me.\ \CHEAP CDs info-mail me. McIntosh Junior: The Power to Crush the Other Kids. /
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (04/20/91)
In article <1991Apr20.071822.22044@m.cs.uiuc.edu> bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu (Jawaid Bazyar) writes: >In article <21041921395197@lax.wisc.edu> THINGVOL@LAX.WISC.EDU writes: >> Why don't you contact Tony Fadell and get a prototype chip (either for >>yourself or for Apple). I'm sure he would be more than happy to let you >>try one out. You deserve to test this out more than anybody. > I'm sure you didn't mean this exactly the way you said it, but to clarify >a bit, Apple will be getting a prototype in a couple weeks too. Did Apple REQUEST one (I hope so!), or are they just sending them one with 'no' explanation? Or did a specific Apple engineer request one, or what? I'm VERY curious as to who/why/where in Apple this is going. -- /unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu Apple IIGS Forever! WANT ULTIMA VI //e or GS?-mail me.\ \CHEAP CDs info-mail me. McIntosh Junior: The Power to Crush the Other Kids. /
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (04/21/91)
In article <1991Apr19.002759.28135@m.cs.uiuc.edu> bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu (Jawaid Bazyar) writes: >They took a Zip and and hopped it up to 14MHz (the whole power supply, etc >shebang). Then they did all the same mods to a Transwarp and could only get >11MHz out of it. Meaning the Zip is a whole lot more robust (nothing I >didn't already know). The conclusion does not follow from the observations, even assuming it was clear what you mean by "robust". There are many factors in a given digital circuit that can limit its maximum supportable clock rate; they don't necessarily indicate anything wrong with the design. My previous estimate of an upper limit to TWGS 32K cache speed, based on its circuit components, was 12MHz, give or take a little; 11MHz may be correct. What we really need is to be able to use faster processor clock rates with no alterations to normal Apple IIGS power supply operation.
rhyde@ucrmath.ucr.edu (randy hyde) (04/21/91)
I've been attempting to stay out of this argument, but I do have one question and comment: As I understand it, this single prototype chip is running in a 2.8 Mhz GS. Is this correct? if so, testing it at 2.8 Mhz is somewhat useful, but that only proves that they've built a 2.8 Mhz chip, not a 17Mhz chip. We need a 17mhz test bed to test a 17 Mhz chip. My apologies if I've misunderstood the situation. *** Randy Hyde
toddpw@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Todd P. Whitesel) (04/21/91)
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes: >What we really need is to be able to use faster processor clock rates >with no alterations to normal Apple IIGS power supply operation. This is what the high speed ASIC 65816 is supposed to be able to do, and is why I want one when they become available. Todd Whitesel toddpw @ tybalt.caltech.edu
whitewolf@gnh-starport.cts.com (Tae Song) (04/29/91)
|> |>Pardon, but I have been around for the last 2 years listening to Tony Fadell |>tell the world of his 'super-816,' and quite frankly I don't believe him any |>more. I've met the guy personally and talked to him (not in the last year), |>and I _still_ doubt that he's going to be able to come through. |> |>I would dearly like to be proven wrong, but I don't see that happening. |> |>andy |> | |Well, let me be the second to tell you that it is here. It's just running |as a 2.8 MHz chip in the cpu right now (in Jawaid's machine). Soon, however, |if I can ever get jawaid to give it up, it will be zipping along in my |Transwarp, and we'll probably not be able to tell you how it did until |Tony says so. We intend to push it to it's limits, and keep on Tony until |this screaming 65816 is a reality. | |Yea, 17MHz. Don't worry, it's a prototype, and Tony's got lots of |tricks left, I know it will get faster. Uh-huh, right... it's running 2.8Mhz... in one GS, and then your going to get it back and try putting it in a TWGS... I hope you know there's a large hole in you story... the GS uses a 40 pin DIP packaged CPU... TWGS/ZIP use a 44-pin package... I suppose that's not surprising, considering it's made out of rubber and it can change shapes... and bounce no less. Andy isn't the only one who doesn't beleive in this super-816... I'll even smack a person who mentions 65832 to me... I'm sure it's not impossible to design a 816 to run faster than 13Mhz, but after what almost 2 years maybe... it isn't available... maybe it should be in the Inquirer... Elvis sited using a 250Mhz GS, Big Foot sited as inventor, Lockness Monster saids they ('816) needs salt, but there nice and cruchy... OK, maybe it does exist and you guys do have it... but til I see it... I don't give $#$% about it... or seeing anymore rumors, other than if it;s straign from the horse mouth, and they're ready to start shipping. INET: whitewolf@gnh-starport.cts.com UUCP: crash!gnh-starport!whitewolf ARPA: crash!gnh-starport!whitewolf@nosc.mil
knauer@cs.uiuc.edu (Rob Knauerhase) (04/29/91)
In <m0jXFPr-00007pC@jartel.info.com> whitewolf@gnh-starport.cts.com (Tae Song) writes: [Andy Nicholas (shrinkit@apple.com) writes:] >|>Pardon, but I have been around for the last 2 years listening to Tony Fadell >|>tell the world of his 'super-816,' and quite frankly I don't believe him any >|>more. >|>I would dearly like to be proven wrong, but I don't see that happening. [and Derek Taubert (dat33228@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu) writes:] >|Well, let me be the second to tell you that it is here. It's just running >|as a 2.8 MHz chip in the cpu right now (in Jawaid's machine). Soon, however, >|if I can ever get jawaid to give it up, it will be zipping along in my >|Transwarp, and we'll probably not be able to tell you how it did until >|Tony says so. >Uh-huh, right... it's running 2.8Mhz... in one GS, and then your going to get >it back and try putting it in a TWGS.. I hope you know there's a large hole in >you story... the GS uses a 40 pin DIP packaged CPU... TWGS/ZIP use a 44-pin >package. I suppose that's not surprising, considering it's made out of rubber >and it can change shapes... and bounce no less. Tae, you should really think twice before putting your foot in your mouth like that. Ridiculing the existance of an _existing_ chip in a national forum could really make you look truly, brutally, stupid. Ever hear of socket adaptors? The chip is of the Zip/Transwarp style (I'm not sure of pinouts since I'm not that deep into it -- ask bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu if you're really interested) and it sits in a daughterboard now which plugs into the GS-style socket. >Andy isn't the only one who doesn't beleive in this super-816... I'll even >smack a person who mentions 65832 to me... I'm sure it's not impossible to >design a 816 to run faster than 13Mhz, but after what almost 2 years maybe... >it isn't available.. maybe it should be in the Inquirer... Elvis sited using a >250Mhz GS, Big Footsited as inventor, Lockness Monster saids they ('816) needs >salt, but there nice and cruchy... You have no evidence that the chip doesn't exist; you have possibly suspect evidence (but from reputable sources) that the chip exists in three eyewitness reports. You have also heard discussion of just such a chip in the past. In the face of that, the above humor is lost and makes you look that much more foolish. >OK, maybe it does exist and you guys do have it... but til I see it... I don't >give $#$% about it...or seeing anymore rumors, other than if it;s straign from >the horse mouth, and they're ready to start shipping. The manufacturers of the chip are hardly obligated to give you status reports on their progress. If you want to continue with the delusion that it doesn't exist, you're more than welcome to invent a fantasy world. Meanwhile, the rest of us will take information from reliable sources at face value, and eagerly await the arrival of mass-production of the chip. Rob Knauerhase -- Robert C. Knauerhase University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign "I get my exercise acting as Dept. of Computer Science, Gigabit Study Group pallbearer for my friends knauer@cs.uiuc.edu, rck@ces.cwru.edu who exercise..." knauer@scivax.lerc.nasa.gov
meekins@anaconda.cis.ohio-state.edu (Tim Meekins) (04/29/91)
In article <1991Apr28.193820.22854@m.cs.uiuc.edu> knauer@cs.uiuc.edu (Rob Knauerhase) writes: >In <m0jXFPr-00007pC@jartel.info.com> whitewolf@gnh-starport.cts.com (Tae Song) writes: > >Tae, you should really think twice before putting your foot in your mouth like >that. Ridiculing the existance of an _existing_ chip in a national forum could >really make you look truly, brutally, stupid. I agree with Rob. Why is it that people have to be so d*mn pessimistic about everything related to the II. Additionaly, why trash/slam/flame something you have no experience with nor ever seen? > Ever hear of socket adaptors? The chip is of the Zip/Transwarp style >(I'm not sure of pinouts since I'm not that deep into it -- ask >bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu if you're really interested) and it sits in a daughterboard >now which plugs into the GS-style socket. > >>Andy isn't the only one who doesn't beleive in this super-816... I'll even >>smack a person who mentions 65832 to me... I'm sure it's not impossible to >>design a 816 to run faster than 13Mhz, but after what almost 2 years maybe... >>it isn't available.. maybe it should be in the Inquirer... Elvis sited using a >>250Mhz GS, Big Footsited as inventor, Lockness Monster saids they ('816) needs >>salt, but there nice and cruchy... > >You have no evidence that the chip doesn't exist; you have possibly suspect >evidence (but from reputable sources) that the chip exists in three eyewitness >reports. You have also heard discussion of just such a chip in the past. In >the face of that, the above humor is lost and makes you look that much more >foolish. If you need more eyewitness reports, I'll post here in one week and give you my review of it. Maybe I'll even get to try it my own TWGS. > >>OK, maybe it does exist and you guys do have it... but til I see it... I don't >>give $#$% about it...or seeing anymore rumors, other than if it;s straign from >>the horse mouth, and they're ready to start shipping. > *** Flame On *** Why the attitude problem? The _facts_ about the ASIC have been quite truthful and I don't see why there is a problem in discussing it. Sure, we've had to wait awhile, but what do you expect from *one* person developing an entire CPU. This isn't a major corporation like Intel or Motorolla. He could have made you happy and released it year ago, but you'd probably be pissed because it didn't run half of your software. Be glad it's taking time and getting the proper testing, and quit flaming those who ARE doing the testing. These posts aren't "my friend says he has it", but the "*I* have it" variety. A big difference... *** Flame Off *** -- +---------------------------S-U-P-P-O-R-T-----------------------------------+ |/ Tim Meekins <<>> Snail Mail: <<>> Apple II \| |> meekins@cis.ohio-state.edu <<>> 8372 Morris Rd. <<>> Forever! <| |\ timm@pro-tcc.cts.com <<>> Hilliard, OH 43026 <<>> /|
scotth@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Scott Henderson) (04/29/91)
How 'bout a fourth eyewitness report??? My roommate (Jawaid Bazyar) has had the chip in his machine for over a week now. The only reason we don't have it in a transwarp is the fact that we don't have an adaptor (daughterboard) like we have in the GS. Soon we will. I'm not so sure that Jawaid should have said anything about having it to this group. All I've heard about it is nothing but pessimism, and I'm getting very sick of it. Pessimism about the ASIC chip. Pessimism about the folks at Apple... etc. etc. The chip is HERE. Believe what you want. But I thought I'd at least act as a 4th eyewitness and collaborate what has already been said. -Scott -- = R. Scott Henderson = "Some people claim that there's a = = University of Illinois = woman to blame, but I know it's = = scotth@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu = my own damned fault. = = Apple II Forever! = -Jimmy Buffet =