tony@nro.cs.athabascau.ca (Tony Turner) (04/16/91)
--> It's the 15th - and as the various rumours have said: this is when Apple is supposedly going to announce the End Of The Apple II Line... Along with the release of the Apple IIe card for the Mac LC. Along with the (dream on) rumour of the Apple II being flogged through SEARS. No gnus up here - any gnus anywhere else? The only gnus up here is the hockey finals. And that's boring. =B=Y=E= (Tony Turner) -Bootstrap. Tony Turner ersys!tony@nro.cs.athabascau.ca Edmonton Remote Systems: Serving Northern Alberta since 1982
shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) (04/16/91)
In article <g29g11w164w@ersys.uucp> ersys!tony@nro.cs.athabascau.ca (Tony Turner) writes: >--> It's the 15th - and as the various rumours have said: this is when >Apple is supposedly going to announce the End Of The Apple II Line... >Along with the release of the Apple IIe card for the Mac LC. Along with >the (dream on) rumour of the Apple II being flogged through SEARS. No >gnus up here - any gnus anywhere else? The only gnus up here is the >hockey finals. And that's boring. =B=Y=E= (Tony Turner) -Bootstrap. What is even more boring is watching people on the network speculate about the Apple II and BE ABSOLUTELY WRONG TIME AFTER TIME. Well folks, its now April 16th, and we (Apple) aren't selling the Apple II line through Sears, and we haven't (and aren't going to) discontinued it. See how much listening to rumors like that gets you? Absolutely nothing. andy -- Andy Nicholas GEnie & America-Online: shrinkit Apple IIGS System Software CompuServe: 70771,2615 Apple Computer, Inc. InterNET: shrinkit@apple.com
knauer@cs.uiuc.edu (Rob Knauerhase) (04/17/91)
In <51564@apple.Apple.COM> shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) writes: >In article <g29g11w164w@ersys.uucp> ersys!tony@nro.cs.athabascau.ca (Tony Turner) writes: >>--> It's the 15th - and as the various rumours have said: this is when >>Apple is supposedly going to announce the End Of The Apple II Line... >>Along with the release of the Apple IIe card for the Mac LC. Along with >>the (dream on) rumour of the Apple II being flogged through SEARS. No >What is even more boring is watching people on the network speculate about >the Apple II and BE ABSOLUTELY WRONG TIME AFTER TIME. >Well folks, its now April 16th,and we (Apple) aren't selling the Apple II line >through Sears, and we haven't (and aren't going to) discontinued it. >See how much listening to rumors like that gets you? Absolutely nothing. Well, I was in Sears just yesterday afternoon, and they said... :-) Seriously, though, perhaps it's time for a repeat of one of my favorite quotes (formerly in my .signature): "Since the day the Apple III (RIP) was introduced in 1980, the 'experts' have been saying the Apple II is a dead machine. If the Apple III couldn't kill it, the Lisa (RIP) or the PC Jr. (RIP) or the 128K Mac (RIP) would. Some people never learn." -- Tom Weishaar Is anyone in favor of making an official comp.sys.apple2 bumper sticker with that quote on it and selling them mail-order? :) Rob -- Robert C. Knauerhase University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign "I get my exercise acting as Dept. of Computer Science, Gigabit Study Group pallbearer for my friends knauer@cs.uiuc.edu, rck@ces.cwru.edu who exercise..." knauer@scivax.lerc.nasa.gov
bazyar@ernie (Jawaid Bazyar) (04/17/91)
In article <1991Apr16.210501.8227@m.cs.uiuc.edu> knauer@cs.uiuc.edu (Rob Knauerhase) writes: >Well, I was in Sears just yesterday afternoon, and they said... :-) So was I. They asked me if I wanted to buy a PS/1. I laughed until I was blue in the face and rolling around the floor. >Seriously, though, perhaps it's time for a repeat of one of my favorite >quotes (formerly in my .signature): > >"Since the day the Apple III (RIP) was introduced in 1980, the 'experts' have > been saying the Apple II is a dead machine. If the Apple III couldn't kill > it, the Lisa (RIP) or the PC Jr. (RIP) or the 128K Mac (RIP) would. Some > people never learn." > -- Tom Weishaar Indeed. Many years have passed since an AppleFest predicted "Apple II Forever". Perhaps they weren't kidding. The Apple IIe was introduced the same year as the original IBM PC. The original PC is no longer manufactured, and in fact no one admits it was ever made. Ahh, if only Woz hadn't been in that plane crash- perhaps he wouldn't have felt the need to teach- perhaps Apple would be a better company for it. For sure, Apple needs some bona-fide engineers and dreamers in management. >Is anyone in favor of making an official comp.sys.apple2 bumper sticker with >that quote on it and selling them mail-order? :) Hmm. Why don't you? -- Jawaid Bazyar | "Twenty seven faces- with their eyes turned to Senior/Computer Engineering | the sky. I have got a camera, and an airtight bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu | alibi.." Apple II Forever! | I need a job... Be priviliged to pay me! :-)
mvk@aix01.aix.rpi.edu (Michael V. Kent) (04/17/91)
In article <1991Apr16.221118.10062@m.cs.uiuc.edu> bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu (Jawaid Bazyar) writes: > The Apple IIe was introduced the same year as the original IBM PC. The >original PC is no longer manufactured, and in fact no one admits it was ever >made. Time sure flies when you're having fun. The IBM PC was released in 1981, with the Apple IIe following on 23 January 1983. (I know, my II+ was purchased on 23 December 1982. :) ) -- Michael Kent mvk@itsgw.rpi.edu McDonnell Douglas Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute St. Louis, Missouri Troy, New York Apple II Forever!
a.guillaume@trl.oz.au (andrew guillaume) (04/17/91)
In article <51564@apple.Apple.COM>, shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) writes: > What is even more boring is watching people on the network speculate about > the Apple II and BE ABSOLUTELY WRONG TIME AFTER TIME. > > Well folks, its now April 16th, and we (Apple) aren't selling the Apple II line > through Sears, and we haven't (and aren't going to) discontinued it. > > See how much listening to rumors like that gets you? Absolutely nothing. Hear, hear ! Let's get rid of this doom and gloom atmosphere and get some real support for the Apple II. I own a //c ("boat-anchor", I sure liked that nick-name :-) which I had upgraded recently, and I certainly am adhering to the "Apple II forever" motto. It's a great computer for what I use it (education), and it is a member of the family :-) And as I'm not a programmer (I'm on of these h/w turkeys :-), I'd appreciate if you gurus out there would spend more time on creativity and imagination for the Apple II than on rumours. Keep the good work up ! I'm always on the lookout for good educational software ! Andrew Guillaume Internet : a.guillaume@trl.oz.au
sb@pnet91.cts.com (Stephen Brown) (04/18/91)
shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) writes: >In article <g29g11w164w@ersys.uucp> ersys!tony@nro.cs.athabascau.ca (Tony Turner) writes: [cut on the dotted line..............................] > >What is even more boring is watching people on the network speculate about >the Apple II and BE ABSOLUTELY WRONG TIME AFTER TIME. > >Well folks, its now April 16th, and we (Apple) aren't selling the Apple II line >through Sears, and we haven't (and aren't going to) discontinued it. > >See how much listening to rumors like that gets you? Absolutely nothing. > >andy > > >-- >Andy Nicholas GEnie & America-Online: shrinkit >Apple IIGS System Software CompuServe: 70771,2615 >Apple Computer, Inc. InterNET: shrinkit@apple.com Then perhaps you could suggest better rumours to listen to? :) +---------------------------------------------------------+ | Stephen Brown Toronto, Canada | | Internet: sb@pnet91.cts.com UUCP: utzoo!pnet91!sb | +---------------------------------------------------------+ | Apple II Forever !!! | | (however, as far as the Apple Computer Company is con- | | cerned: "Who really cares anymore?) | +---------------------------------------------------------+ | Like my new .signature. ? Too bad. | +---------------------------------------------------------+
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (04/20/91)
bazyar@ernie (Jawaid Bazyar) writes: >knauer@cs.uiuc.edu (Rob Knauerhase) writes: >>"Since the day the Apple III (RIP) was introduced in 1980, the 'experts' have >> been saying the Apple II is a dead machine. If the Apple III couldn't kill >> it, the Lisa (RIP) or the PC Jr. (RIP) or the 128K Mac (RIP) would. Some >> people never learn." >> -- Tom Weishaar >>Is anyone in favor of making an official comp.sys.apple2 bumper sticker with >>that quote on it and selling them mail-order? :) > Hmm. Why don't you? Bit long, isn't it? That sticker would cover the bumper end-to-end... >-- >Jawaid Bazyar | "Twenty seven faces- with their eyes turned to >Senior/Computer Engineering | the sky. I have got a camera, and an airtight >bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu | alibi.." > Apple II Forever! | I need a job... Be priviliged to pay me! :-) ...not that that would be bad... :-) -- /// ____ \\\ "It says, `Golgafrincham Ark Fleet, Ship B, Hold 7, Telephone | |/ / \ \| | Sanitizer, Second Class,' and a serial number." "A telephone \\_(\____/)_// sanitizer? A dead telephone sanitizer?" "Best greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu kind." "But what's he doing here?" "Not a lot."
kreme@isis.cs.du.edu (Harvey Leech) (04/20/91)
In article <616@generic.UUCP> sb@pnet91.cts.com (Stephen Brown) writes: >shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) writes: >>See how much listening to rumors like that gets you? Absolutely nothing. >> >>andy > >Then perhaps you could suggest better rumours to listen to? :) Sure... here is the latest unsubstantiated scoop of some BBS's I've been on around the country. 1) System software 6.0 is two-three months from final beta. [How that translates into release, I don't know, 4-5?] 2) A New GS is deffinetly planned. it will have an internal Hard drive (40 Meg) and a Smart Drive (1.44). 3) System 6.0 will include Mac and IBM FSTs. 4) The new GS will be faster (8Mhz) [ If the machine is designed for 8mhz it will probably end up running faster than a ROM 01 with a 10Mhz Zip in it ] 5) There will be an upgrade option for current ROM 03 owners. [ No mention of ROM 01 owners :-( ] >| Apple II Forever !!! | >| (however, as far as the Apple Computer Company is con- | >| cerned: "Who really cares anymore?) | Well, call me "fool" but I'm optomistic about the Apple // in '91-92. Note: THESE ARE RUMORS! I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF ON ANY OF THESE, AND I MAKE NO WARRANTY, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, AS TO THE ACCURACY OF ANY OF THE ABOVE STAMEMENTS. MANY COME FROM UNRELIABLE SOURCES. TAKE THEM WITH A GRAIN A SALT. NAY, TAKE THEM WITH A pound OF SALT! -- | kreme@nyx.cs.du.edu |The Coven BBS (303) 777 2911 PCP via CODEN Stalr*nk too| |---------------------|100 Megs of storage. Areas for IBM/MAC/Apple. Games. | | If you don't get kissed good-night you get Kafka Dreams |
SHBOUM@MACALSTR.EDU (04/21/91)
In <51564@apple.Apple.COM> shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) writes: >>--> It's the 15th - and as the various rumours have said: this is when >>Apple is supposedly going to announce the End Of The Apple II Line... >>Along with the release of the Apple IIe card for the Mac LC. Along with >>the (dream on) rumour of the Apple II being flogged through SEARS. No >What is even more boring is watching people on the network speculate about >the Apple II and BE ABSOLUTELY WRONG TIME AFTER TIME. >Well folks, its now April 16th,and we (Apple) aren't selling the Apple II line >through Sears, and we haven't (and aren't going to) discontinued it. >See how much listening to rumors like that gets you? Absolutely nothing. Well the only reason why these rumors are running about is because Apple continues to make its position on the future of the II very indecisive. On the one hand we have all the great guys working down at Apple II DTS doing great advances in our OS, while Apple turns around and publishes a 40 page advertisement in Incider that is completly pro-mac and puts down the II line as an inferior computer. While we have heard that Apple plans to continue to develop the II line, we don't see any sign of any major hardware development. Meanwhile, everything upper management does has the word Macintosh in its plans. As soon as Apple sends out a strong signal about the future of the II, then people will stop speculating "the death of the Apple II" - Hal | Hal Bouma | Send mail to: SHBoum@Macalstr.edu | Macalester College | and SHBoum@Macalstr.Bitnet | GEnie: H.Bouma | ".Sig Under Construction..."
hzink@alchemy.UUCP (Harry K. Zink) (04/22/91)
>In <51564@apple.Apple.COM> shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) writes: >>>--> It's the 15th - and as the various rumours have said: this is when >>>Apple is supposedly going to announce the End Of The Apple II Line... >>>Along with the release of the Apple IIe card for the Mac LC. Along with >>>the (dream on) rumour of the Apple II being flogged through SEARS. No >>What is even more boring is watching people on the network speculate about >>the Apple II and BE ABSOLUTELY WRONG TIME AFTER TIME. >>Well folks, its now April 16th,and we (Apple) aren't selling the Apple II line >>through Sears, and we haven't (and aren't going to) discontinued it. >>See how much listening to rumors like that gets you? Absolutely nothing. On the other hand, see what listening to the holy words from Cupertino gets you -- absolutely nothing as well. I just find that these rumors only start *because* of the obvious lack of support and/or confusion on how to market two product lines (yeah, right Jane..!) on the part of apple. I really do not see rumors and hopes flying rampant in the Macintosh world - of course, they don't have to; System 7.0 was announced over two years ago. New CPU platforms appaer regularly enough to not necessitate rumors (So, how's the '040 tower coming along...). The apple II world is another story - strict secrecy of all events and goings ons. I don't know why apple is so open about the Mac, yet secretive about the Apple II - afraid Nintendo is going to clone the GS and sell it for cheap! In my opinion, such secretive attitude only reflect an attitude of confusion and/or stealth - and that is why rumors keep abounding. Maybe if apple were to develop a more honest approach to the apple II, we wouldn't need any rumors. Furthermore, it's really uplifting to see sarcastic remarks like those of Mr. Nicholas (Hi Andy!), with no substance at all. It might bne nice for them to know that they are working on awesome stuff, thinking what stupid fools we are for doubting all-mighty apple, yet does it really matter if any awesome things surface after everybody has already moved on? How many software companies still develop actively for the Apple II gs? How many have abandonned it? If the number of the latter is larger than the other, you know you are in trouble. It seems to me that apple is employing a clever strategy of hiring top nothc people like Andy, and thus effectively silencing them. It is interesting that time after time people that have contributed greatly to software and support for the apple II have been hired by apple (seen as a sparc of hope), only to see all creative endeavors of these people locked into apple's ivory towers. Also, interesting to see that those same people are now critical of the same people that they used to be part of. I guess a big salary and living in Ivory towers has that effect on some people (Hi Matt!). uucp : ucrmath!alchemy!hzink | Financial Independence *CAN* be Yours! INET : hzink@alchemy.uucp | 24hr Taped Information Hotline (714) 276-2020 -----------------------------+------------------------------------------------ Wesley: "Captain, this doesn't look like the holodeck to me." Worf: "Ready to cycle airlock, Captain." Picard: "Make it so."
shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) (04/22/91)
In article <414@alchemy.UUCP> hzink@alchemy.UUCP (Harry K. Zink) writes: >It seems to me that apple is employing a clever strategy of hiring top nothc >people like Andy, and thus effectively silencing them. Apple didn't hire me to silence me. I can tell you as much as I know now as I used to know before i worked for Apple. There's no net gain or loss of collective cummunity information. Apple's hiring me is a neutral thing as far as how much information will be available coming from me. >It is interesting that time after time people that have contributed greatly >to software and support for the apple II have been hired by apple (seen as >a sparc of hope), only to see all creative endeavors of these people locked >into apple's ivory towers. Assuming that you're talking about me, I kind of doubt that Apple is locking me into an "Ivory Tower" -- I'm working harder towards contributing towards the Apple II far more now than I was before just working on ShrinkIt. I have no substantive way to prove this, except that I've been here for almost 6 months now and >I< feel that I've been more productive. I've worked the extra hours, learned the extra stuff, tried out the things I thought would work, and experimented with stuff that didn't (on my Apple IIGS). I've solved problem after problem with the Finder and incorporated features that my bosses didn't think possible in the time given. I'm just one person, and I've done the very best I could. And, Harry, who are you to judge me? andy -- Andy Nicholas GEnie & America-Online: shrinkit Apple IIGS System Software CompuServe: 70771,2615 Apple Computer, Inc. InterNET: shrinkit@apple.com
dlyons@Apple.COM (David A. Lyons) (04/22/91)
In article <414@alchemy.UUCP> hzink@alchemy.UUCP (Harry K. Zink) writes: (In response to Andy Nicholas noting that April 16th arrived, the Apple II is still alive, that people continue to predict its death and continue to be wrong.) I will regret getting involved in this, but there are a couple things you imply about -me- and my coworkers that I feel strongly about. >>[Andy: See what listening to rumors gets you? Nothing.] >On the other hand, see what listening to the holy words from Cupertino gets >you -- absolutely nothing as well. [Points out there has been less >secrecy around Macintosh system 7.0, and that CPU releases are frequent >enough that nobody's worried about their line being discontinued.] My words are not holy. I don't think of them that way and never asked you to. I realize you meant "holy words from Cupertino" sarcastically, but you are expecting too much from Andy and me. We don't make decisions about when to announce things. I don't even -want- that responsibility. What we *can* do is reassure you that, in general, we are working on the toolbox, the Finder, etc. You can conclude whatever you want from that. An exercise for the reader: dig up some information on 7.0 from two years ago. Compare it to what 7.0 is today and decide if you would have announced it then. >Maybe if apple were to develop a more honest approach to the apple II, we >wouldn't need any rumors. I object to the implication that we are doing something dishonest. The approach of late has been less "open" than it could be, or maybe even than it should be, but it is not dishonest. The degree of openness is not my decision, and it isn't yours either. >Furthermore, it's really uplifting to see sarcastic remarks like those of Mr. >Nicholas (Hi Andy!), with no substance at all. It might bne nice for them to >know that they are working on awesome stuff, thinking what stupid fools we are >for doubting all-mighty apple [...] I read Andy's message as "The Apple II consistently outlives predictions of its death, so why doesn't everybody *quit worrying* about it and get on with something (anything!) productive?" You complained about total secrecy in Apple II plans above. Now you *also* complain when we tell you we are working on things? Yeah, I'd rather give you details now, but I can't. If you truly prefer my silence, that could be arranged. >It seems to me that apple is employing a clever strategy of hiring top nothc >people like Andy, and thus effectively silencing them. It is interesting that >time after time people that have contributed greatly to software and support >for the apple II have been hired by apple (seen as a sparc of hope), only to >see all creative endeavors of these people locked into apple's ivory towers. > >Also, interesting to see that those same people are now critical of the same >people that they used to be part of. I guess a big salary and living in Ivory >towers has that effect on some people (Hi Matt!). This is unrealistic, unfair, and silly, and I will explain why. Andy has been here since November. He has continued to release versions of ShrinkIt and work on other of his personal Apple II projects. He has *also* been working on the next version of the Finder. Some day this will ship. For now, it is not "locked up," it is "NOT DONE." You imply that I have loads of money. (0) This is none of your business. (1) I work 80+ hours a week with no overtime pay. (Andy says I work more like 100. I don't keep track.) I am -not- in this for the money. (2) I pay taxes and Cupertino rent. (3) I do not own any yachts or ride a limo to work, and my savings account would not get Donald Trump out of a jam. With the "ivory tower" reference you imply that I set myself apart from "you guys" as some kind of higher-class citizen. (By the way, I work in the *top floor* of a one-story building.) If this perception is because I can't give you details of the company's future plans, I guess there's nothing I can do to make you think of me as a real person. (If my .signature said "I know a lot, but I can keep a secret," I wouldn't blame you. I have actually seen buttons that say that, but *I* would never wear one.) I dedicate almost all my time to my job, because I enjoy it a lot. This benefits you, the Apple IIgs user. In return I ask only that you be realistic in what you expect of me. Ask technical questions about today's products, and I'll try to answer. Ask if the Apple II is dead and I will say "No!" But don't try to make me into a god and then complain that I'm not one. My advice to Apple II folks: GET ON WITH IT! Being paranoid won't help. (BTW, I don't think Matt Deatherage has read this newsgroup in many months, mostly because it was consistently filled with material like this, rather than anything relating to using Apple IIs productively.) > uucp : ucrmath!alchemy!hzink | Financial Independence *CAN* be Yours! > INET : hzink@alchemy.uucp | 24hr Taped Information Hotline (714) 276-2020 -- David A. Lyons, Apple Computer, Inc. | DAL Systems Apple II System Software Engineer | P.O. Box 875 America Online: Dave Lyons | Cupertino, CA 95015-0875 GEnie: D.LYONS2 or DAVE.LYONS CompuServe: 72177,3233 Internet/BITNET: dlyons@apple.com UUCP: ...!ames!apple!dlyons My opinions are my own, not Apple's.
-Rich-@cup.portal.com (Richard Sherman Payne) (04/24/91)
>Assuming that you're talking about me, I kind of doubt that Apple is locking >me into an "Ivory Tower" -- I'm working harder towards contributing towards >the Apple II far more now than I was before just working on ShrinkIt. > >I have no substantive way to prove this, except that I've been here for almost >6 months now and >I< feel that I've been more productive. I've worked the >extra hours, learned the extra stuff, tried out the things I thought would >work, and experimented with stuff that didn't (on my Apple IIGS). I've solved >problem after problem with the Finder and incorporated features that my bosses >didn't think possible in the time given. I'm just one person, and I've >done the very best I could. > >Andy Nicholas GEnie & America-Online: shrinkit >Apple IIGS System Software CompuServe: 70771,2615 >Apple Computer, Inc. InterNET: shrinkit@apple.com Cmon Andy, are'nt you under some sort of a non-disclosure aggrement? But in any case, I doubt that anyone could doubt the value of your contributions to the APple // community. I can hardly wait to see the new finder. Keep up the good work. Rich -Rich-@cup.portal.com
shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) (04/24/91)
In article <41602@cup.portal.com> -Rich-@cup.portal.com (Richard Sherman Payne) writes: >>Assuming that you're talking about me, I kind of doubt that Apple is locking >>me into an "Ivory Tower" -- I'm working harder towards contributing towards >>the Apple II far more now than I was before just working on ShrinkIt. >>I have no substantive way to prove this... Reread that, it's important ^^^ >>didn't think possible in the time given. I'm just one person, and I've >>done the very best I could. Perhaps I should rephrase that to read: I'm only human, and I've done the best job that I could -- the point that I'm trying to make is that there are limits to what I can do. If that's not good enough for some people, I'm truly sorry, but I can't do any better. >Cmon Andy, are'nt you under some sort of a non-disclosure aggrement? Yes I am. Does signing a non-disclosure statement mean that I am automatically condemned to "Ivory Tower" status because I can keep a secret? The point I was trying to make was that just because you don't see me contributing doesn't mean that I'm not contributing. We can all contribute in our own way -- I'm trying my own way by working at Apple, and trying my best. andy -- Andy Nicholas GEnie & America-Online: shrinkit Apple IIGS System Software CompuServe: 70771,2615 Apple Computer, Inc. InterNET: shrinkit@apple.com
tribby@hpindwa.cup.hp.com (David Tribby) (04/25/91)
hzink@alchemy.UUCP (Harry K. Zink) writes... >On the other hand, see what listening to the holy words from Cupertino gets you >-- absolutely nothing as well. I've gotten a LOT out of their "holy words;" not only good technical information but some hints as to future direction. Examples: - Last year Matt Deatherage described Apple's plans for publishing Vol 3 of the Toolbox reference and the GS/OS reference. I appreciated knowing the timeframe so I could decide not to purchase the beta versions. - Dave Lyons moved from DTS to Tools development last year. Shows that Apple still has a commitment to development, not "just" support. - When Andy Nicholas was hired as a developer by Apple, he made it known that they wanted him to improve the Finder. He recently hinted that the work was done, and that the results made the current version look lame in comparison. Reading between the lines: if he finished the work, it must be into system testing, so the release *should* only be a few months away (unless significant problems are found in the system). A new Finder wouldn't be the only piece of software released, so I'm expecting a new version of the system disk. >I just find that these rumors only start *because* of the obvious lack of >support and/or confusion on how to market two product lines I agree that the marketing of the II line has been minimal to non-existant. But rumors will fly whenever anyone thinks they can figure out what's going on "behind closed doors." >I really do not see rumors and hopes flying rampant in the Macintosh world I don't follow the Mac world closely, but have heard plenty of rumors. Are they developing a high-end Mac based upon a RISC chip? Will Apple port some of their Mac software to run on IBM systems? A couple of years ago, an experienced Apple engineer was fired because he posted some information about future products on a bulletin board system. Maybe that keeps the rumors down. >Furthermore, it's really uplifting to see sarcastic remarks like those of Mr. >Nicholas (Hi Andy!), with no substance at all. The substance I got out of Andy's message: don't believe the rumors read on comp.sys.apple2. The "Sears will carry Apple IIs beginning April 15" rumor generated a *lot* of messages from people who were outraged that Sears was chosen as an Apple outlet. Andy was reminding us not to get worked up about things that might not happen at all. >It seems to me that apple is employing a clever strategy of hiring top nothc >people like Andy, and thus effectively silencing them. Woah...a conspiracy theory: Apple will hire any good II people, then lock them away in an ivory tower *just to kill the II line*! I suppose you could read the results that way, but I see different motivations: - Apple wants the best engineers. - Once Apple hires an engineer, they make him or her work plenty hard. There's no longer as much time to post on the net. All the rumors on the net look pretty ridiculous, so there's less motivation to read... particularly when messages contain personal attacks. - As part of the Apple team, it's harder to make individual contributions visible. We know Andy is "Mr. Shrinkit" because he designed and coded Shrinkit and GSHK on his own. Dave Lyons' contributions of Nifty List, DIcEd, DaveX, etc., before he joined Apple were obvious because they had the DAL label on them. Now that they are part of a larger team, it's harder to see which part of the total system they have worked on. - If Apple treats an employee unfairly, there are plenty of opportunities for them with other Silicon Valley companies. I have no doubt that if Dave, Matt, or Andy thought their work was being buried they would be out the door. -- Dave Tribby P.S. Did I get it right, guys?
spock@incom.incom.de (Martin Georg) (04/25/91)
Netters, You've all heared now what Andy and Dave said about their work. Most of us here really appriciate that they spent their very own spare time to be with us to provide help and solve technical questions about current Apple II products from Apple. Please keep in mind: Any flames directed at Andy, Dave or someone else will only cause trouble, dis- satisfaction and frustration to all of us, the guys from Apple included. You will not change anything with sarcastic or outraged flames. Please begin to see that they work very hard to provide us with the best they can do in that time. If you want to express your complaints about Apple's current Apple II policy, direct your thoughts towards the right people at Apple. Write a letter to Ralph Russo and/or Jane Lee. Be clear and precise and avoid empty phrases or general attacks. Just express your opinion and ask for a reply. I think we'll see the results from Andy's (and all other Apple II guys at Apple) soon when their new stuff is released. Martin Georg Frankfurt/Germany German Sysop, GEnie (AUGE e.V., Apple IIgs SIG, Germany) ----> Apple II forever! <----
-Rich-@cup.portal.com (Richard Sherman Payne) (04/25/91)
>In article <41602@cup.portal.com> -Rich-@cup.portal.com (Richard Payne) >writes: > >>>Assuming that you're talking about me, I kind of doubt that Apple is locking >>>me into an "Ivory Tower" -- I'm working harder towards contributing towards >>>the Apple II far more now than I was before just working on ShrinkIt. > >>>I have no substantive way to prove this... > >Reread that, it's important ^^^ > >>>didn't think possible in the time given. I'm just one person, and I've >>>done the very best I could. > >Perhaps I should rephrase that to read: I'm only human, and I've done the best >job that I could -- the point that I'm trying to make is that there are >limits to what I can do. If that's not good enough for some people, I'm truly >sorry, but I can't do any better. > >>Cmon Andy, are'nt you under some sort of a non-disclosure aggrement? > >Yes I am. Does signing a non-disclosure statement mean that I am >automatically condemned to "Ivory Tower" status because I can keep a secret? > >The point I was trying to make was that just because you don't see me >contributing doesn't mean that I'm not contributing. We can all contribute in >our own way -- I'm trying my own way by working at Apple, and trying my best. > >andy > >-- >Andy Nicholas GEnie & America-Online: shrinkit >Apple IIGS System Software CompuServe: 70771,2615 >Apple Computer, Inc. InterNET: shrinkit@apple.com I'm sorry Andy, you seem to have gotten the wrong idea. What I meant to reply to was a post where you stated that you were not telling any more or any less than you knew just because you were now working at Apple. I do not now, nor hav e I ever had any doubts about your integrity, but I do feel that you must still be bound by a non-disclosure agreement. So while you almost certainly must know more (about APple's plans/developments/etc), you probably cannot tell us. It seems that I grabbed the text about the Ivory tower by mistake, my apologies . I do not think of you in an Ivory Tower. But you deleted the line about the value of your contributions. Perhaps you were a bit upset, but that was my main point. Few in the Apple community have done more. I still love my //gs, and I certainly have no complaint's about yourself. Pat yourself on the back, you've earned it, and more. And you're not the only one who works 80 hour weeks. Though I have been keeping them in the 60-70 hour range for now. But the next new product will change that. And I fully understand the remark about the loss of a personal life. This part hurts more than anything else sometimes. Rich
hzink@alchemy.UUCP (Harry K. Zink) (04/28/91)
Andy, My post was really more in response to your rather acidic comment concerning the (always) resurfacing rumors of hopeful announcements (which never happen). Instead of maybe thinking why people need to have such hopeless hopes, and construct such rumors that they cling to, you felt it appropriate to smugly mention that once again they were wrong and it seems to me that you enjoyed that comment! Granted, one *CAN* get tired of the continued rumors resurfacing, and maybe that was one of the reasons you adopted that attitude. It just seemed awfully cocky coming from you, talking to the commoners about these parts... Of course, instead of maybe dealing with any of the issues I brought up (people needing the illusions and hopes of rumors because they are being continually disapointed by apple), all you could muster is: > > And, Harry, who are you to judge me? > >andy > Which was a nice attempt to simply divert blame by trying to say:"HOw dare you judge me considering your performance/past record/non-connection to the GS world". Well, Andy, but I do not need to be a GS guru (and I'm more than willingvto admit that I use Macintosh and am very happy with it) to be able to tell when a company pisses on its users, or when an individual seems overly arrogant. Now, do not misunderstand me: I am not questioning that you are working very hard on future innovations to GS/OS and the finder, and that you are most likley weaving your usual ind of magic to dazzle the people that say "It can't be done". I know your work, and I am very impressed by it. It is not your work that is at debate here, but merely your attitude during that one comment of yours. Harry uucp : ucrmath!alchemy!hzink | Financial Independence *CAN* be Yours! INET : hzink@alchemy.uucp | 24hr Taped Information Hotline (714) 276-2020 -----------------------------+------------------------------------------------ Wesley: "Captain, this doesn't look like the holodeck to me." Worf: "Ready to cycle airlock, Captain." Picard: "Make it so."
hzink@alchemy.UUCP (Harry K. Zink) (04/28/91)
Dave,
Let me clarify a few points that I believe have been misunderstood.
First of all, IU thank you *VERY MUCH* for a well written, informative and in
no way ridiculous message. I enjoyed reading it very much. Really.
My original post, which might have been a bit acidic, was directly to 98%
towards Andy's original post. You might be correct in interpreting what his
intention of the post was (only he knows for sure), but the way his tone came
accross sure didn't seem that way. I believe that you have made the point in a
much better fashion (to stop being paranoid and to get on with it) than he did,
and I thank you for it.
You also mentioned that:
> I object to the implication that we are doing something dishonest. The
In no way was I implying that you, the DTS people, are doing anything less than
honest. Like I said in my previous post to Andy, I am well aware that you guys
are continually working on improving the toolbox and GS/OS, and that you are
most likely doing miraculous things. I am not, nor will I ever question that.
On the other hand, I do believe that the apple marketing dpet is completely
incompetent and individuals like Jane Lee and her cohorst are proving that time
and time again on on-line conferences. This is, as you correctly mentioned,
not your responsibility (marketing) nor is it mine. Nevertheless, we are all
allowed our opinion on incompetence, aren't we..?
I also understand that none of you from DTS can divulge information about what
you are working on at this time, and I know that all of you are most helpful
when it comes to current questions. I am not accusing you of anything for
being quiet. In fact, I am not accusing YOU, Dave, of anything, as so far you
reply and message on this netgroup has been the most intelligible and to the
point answer I have read. It wasn't tainted with sarcasm (like Andy's) or
arrogance and confusion (like Matt's). It was just straight talk and I believe
most of us here enjoyed that as much as I did. I applaud you and want you to
know that none of what you thought was directed towards you and DTS was in fact
so.
This whole argument had more to do with the attitudes of some in posting to
this system, then their competence with apple DTS.
In summary, thank you for the encouraging words concerning the apple II. We
are all looking forward to your works when they are completed and when we are
allowed to see them.
Harry
uucp : ucrmath!alchemy!hzink | Financial Independence *CAN* be Yours!
INET : hzink@alchemy.uucp | 24hr Taped Information Hotline (714) 276-2020
-----------------------------+------------------------------------------------
Wesley: "Captain, this doesn't look like the holodeck to me."
Worf: "Ready to cycle airlock, Captain." Picard: "Make it so."shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) (05/01/91)
In article <416@alchemy.UUCP> hzink@alchemy.UUCP (Harry K. Zink) writes: >Instead of maybe thinking why people need to have such hopeless hopes, and >construct such rumors that they cling to, you felt it appropriate to smugly >mention that once again they were wrong and it seems to me that you enjoyed >that comment! Just curious, but how can you tell by reading the ASCII that I produce whether I meant something smugly or not? Incidently, I didn't mean anything smugly -- and I don't take any great joy in saying that people have spent energy that could have been put to better use by listening to yet another "the apple II is toast" rumor. At the time I wrote the letter you are talking about I was more frustrated than anything else -- it takes a great deal of patience to sit here and listen to people posting rumors which have absolutely no basis in fact, or are so outlandish that they'd never happen. I wasn't feeling smug, I was feeling frustrated. >Granted, one *CAN* get tired of the continued rumors resurfacing, and maybe >that was one of the reasons you adopted that attitude. It just seemed awfully >cocky coming from you, talking to the commoners about these parts... It all depends on how you read things I guess. If you think that I'm sitting here with some kind of attitude problem and that I think that I'm somehow "holier than thou," then that's your right -- but that's not what I think. >Of course, instead of maybe dealing with any of the issues I brought up (people >needing the illusions and hopes of rumors because they are being continually >disapointed by apple), all you could muster is: >> >> And, Harry, who are you to judge me? > >Which was a nice attempt to simply divert blame by trying to say:"HOw dare you >judge me considering your performance/past record/non-connection to the GS >world". You can read a lot into that, but since you seem to want me to explain it, I will. I was merely saying that I don't think you are qualified to judge the work that I've been doing because you haven't seen it. I've been hired by Apple and my work gets judged by my coworkers and my bosses. At some point it's probable that you may see some of the work that results, but the work that goes into what I do at Apple will only be seen by the people who work with me. >Well, Andy, but I do not need to be a GS guru (and I'm more than willingvto >admit that I use Macintosh and am very happy with it) to be able to tell when a >company pisses on its users, or when an individual seems overly arrogant. I'm very willing to admit that I use a Macintosh also. I have 2 in my cube at work along with my GS and logic analyzer. I don't understand? What the big deal about admitting that you use a Macintosh? (I must have missed something). No, I didn't address anything in your letter which dealt with how disgruntled Apple has made some of its users. Apple has done this, but I'm not capable of adequently addressing all that is involved, nor should I try. I'm just a software engineer, not someone higher up. One thing which you could do which might save you some time is not to try to convince me that I'm the root of all evil at Apple. This is how you've made me feel. Sorry if I sounded like I was "overly arrogant." I wasn't trying to be... it's just that I felt like you had been personally condemning me for working for Apple and also for not "producing." My response was just to point out that I am trying very hard to do the best that I can, but because I work for Apple, you're not going to see what I'm doing, that's all -- and because you can't see what I'm doing, I don't feel it's right of you to condemn me when you can't gather all the facts in my case. >But merely your attitude during that one comment of yours. I hope part of this letter allows you to understand that electronic communications can be sufficiently vague as to allow misunderstandings to occur, and I really hope that you don't think I'm "stuck up" or "arrogant" or whetever... Rather, if you have to judge me, judge by something tangible (the results) rather than something intangible (my work in progress). >Harry andy -- Andy Nicholas GEnie & America-Online: shrinkit Apple IIGS System Software CompuServe: 70771,2615 Apple Computer, Inc. InterNET: shrinkit@apple.com
shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) (05/01/91)
In article <417@alchemy.UUCP> hzink@alchemy.UUCP (Harry K. Zink) writes: >My original post, which might have been a bit acidic, was directly to 98% >towards Andy's original post. You might be correct in interpreting what his >intention of the post was (only he knows for sure), Actually, that's not really true -- Dave knew my intention because he spends a large portion of his time near, close to, or in my cube at work. The reverse is also true. Dave's cube is about 15, maybe 20 feet from mine. >In no way was I implying that you, the DTS people, >know that none of what you thought was directed towards you and DTS was in fact >so. >this system, then their competence with apple DTS. Dave and I do not work for DTS -- we work for Apple IIGS System Software... DTS (Matt Deatherage works for Developer Technical Support) is in one of the City Center buildings. Dave is a Toolbox Engineer, while I work on the Finder. Matt answers developer questions, writes sample code, and deals with a whole bunch of other things that I can't quite remember right now... ;-) >It wasn't tainted with sarcasm (like Andy's) Huh? I thought you said I was being arrogant? Well, in either case, my message wasn't meant to be sarcastic either -- if I had wanted my original message to be sarcastic, why would I bother to spend so much time trying to tell folks what I intended? (Which, to be sure, is an indication that I should brush up on my network and communication skills, gak -- hmmm... maybe I need more smileys in my messages?). :-) andy -- Andy Nicholas GEnie & America-Online: shrinkit Apple IIGS System Software CompuServe: 70771,2615 Apple Computer, Inc. InterNET: shrinkit@apple.com
dlyons@Apple.COM (David A. Lyons) (05/01/91)
In article <417@alchemy.UUCP> hzink@alchemy.UUCP (Harry K. Zink) writes: >[...] >In no way was I implying that you [...] are doing anything less than >honest. [...] On the other hand, I do believe that the apple marketing >dpet is completely incompetent and individuals like Jane Lee and her >cohorst are proving that time and time again on on-line conferences. >[...] we are all allowed our opinion on incompetence, aren't we..? Yes, you are welcome to your opinion on incompetence; but I still take exception to the claim that there is anything dishonest about the way we are conducting business. I can see how you might feel "misled" at this stage by comments made by Jane Lee and others over the last year or so. I want to point out two things: (1) everyone is acting in good faith...when they said "I expect X to happen" they really did; and (2) those things may *still* happen. I wish I could be specific. (By the way, I guess I deleted all the "nice" things in your message, Harry. Sorry about that; I read them but didn't have anything to add.) -- David A. Lyons, Apple Computer, Inc. | DAL Systems Apple II System Software Engineer | P.O. Box 875 America Online: Dave Lyons | Cupertino, CA 95015-0875 GEnie:DAVE.LYONS CompuServe:72177,3233 Internet:dlyons@apple.com My opinions are my own, not Apple's.
bazyar@ernie (Jawaid Bazyar) (05/01/91)
In article <52202@apple.Apple.COM> shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) writes: >Actually, that's not really true -- Dave knew my intention because he spends >a large portion of his time near, close to, or in my cube at work. The >reverse is also true. Dave's cube is about 15, maybe 20 feet from mine. Do you guys throw Koosh balls at each other over the walls of your cubes? Inquiring minds want to know. Hey! Just call me Mr. Levity. -- Jawaid Bazyar | "Twenty seven faces- with their eyes turned to Senior/Computer Engineering | the sky. I have got a camera, and an airtight bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu | alibi.." Apple II Forever! | I need a job... Be priviliged to pay me! :-)
shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) (05/02/91)
In article <1991May1.004439.19806@m.cs.uiuc.edu> bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu (Jawaid Bazyar) writes: >>reverse is also true. Dave's cube is about 15, maybe 20 feet from mine. > > Do you guys throw Koosh balls at each other over the walls of your cubes? >Inquiring minds want to know. Koosh balls? No, but Dave has a bunch of "whoosh" frisbees that I often find landing in my cube while I'm working and Dave is bored (doesn't happen too often). andy -- Andy Nicholas GEnie & America-Online: shrinkit Apple IIGS System Software CompuServe: 70771,2615 Apple Computer, Inc. InterNET: shrinkit@apple.com
mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) (05/03/91)
In article <1991May1.004439.19806@m.cs.uiuc.edu> bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu (Jawaid Bazyar) writes: > > Do you guys throw Koosh balls at each other over the walls of your cubes? >Inquiring minds want to know. > > Hey! Just call me Mr. Levity. >-- Funny you should mention Koosh(tm) balls... When DTS lived in Valley Green 5, I had LOTS of Koosh balls. About 33, to be precise. These were great fun. We could hit the ceiling with them and raise the tiles just enough to catch the feelers so the balls would stick to the ceiling. We had Koosh ball wars and destroyed more than a few plants. The layout at City Center isn't as conducive to it, but we have several of the Woosh(tm) frisbees which we play with occasionally. I used to stand up and ricochet them off the wall bordering Dave's cube, which is probably why he left DTS to go to engineering. I also have Nerf guns, a Nerf Soccer ball, Nerf fencing, an Aerobie boomerang (which I am not stupid enough to use indoors, thank you), blocks and marbles as well as about a dozen Koosh that haven't been lost over the years. But, I digress. -- ============================================================================ Matt Deatherage, Developer Technical | The opinions expressed herein are Support, Apple Computer, Inc. | not those of Apple Computer, and Personal mail only, please. Thanks. | shame on you for thinking otherwise. ============================================================================
gt0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Gregory Ross Thompson) (05/03/91)
mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) writes: > I also have Nerf guns, a Nerf Soccer ball, Nerf fencing, an Aerobie boomerang > (which I am not stupid enough to use indoors, thank you), blocks and marbles > as well as about a dozen Koosh that haven't been lost over the years. > > But, I digress. Hey, I wish my work environment was that fun... Sounds like you guys are doing a pretty good job of avoiding insanity. Good to have ya back, Matt. > -- > ============================================================================ > Matt Deatherage, Developer Technical | The opinions expressed herein are > Support, Apple Computer, Inc. | not those of Apple Computer, and > Personal mail only, please. Thanks. | shame on you for thinking otherwise. > ============================================================================ -Greg T. InterNet: gt0t+@andrew.cmu.edu BITNet : R746GT0T@CMCCVB AOL : GRThompson