acmfiu@serss0.fiu.edu (ACMFIU) (04/23/91)
having used windows, apple has nothing to worry about in terms of GUI. windows is the most pathetic interface i've ever seen on any computer. personally, i think Open Look and NeXTStep blow the macintosh to pieces. apple should not copyright their user interface. as a matter of fact, no user interface should be copyrighted. how would you like it if you just bought a new computer and wanted to write a graphics environment but _every_ current GUI was copyrighted. then you would probably have some second class GUI that no one would probably like. and, let's fact it, if you program doesn't look appealing, then people might not use it (that's why brain-dead people buy good-looking cars that get -25mpg just because it "looks" good. what fools). anyway, if someone steals something that's yours, you should fight to get it back. i don't think, however, that apple will stop at copyrighting their interface. their scum lawyers are too greedy. albert
acmfiu@serss0.fiu.edu (ACMFIU) (04/23/91)
In the United States, the Constitution says that the purpose of the Copyright is to ``promote the progress of science and the useful arts.'' Conspicuously absent is any hint of intention to enrich copyright holders to the detriment of the users of copyright works. The Supreme Court made the reason for this absence explicit, stating in Fox Film vs. Doyal that ``The sole interest of the United States and the primary object in conferring the [copyright] monopoly lie in the general benefits derived by the public from the labors of authors.'' [the above is courtesy the Leage for Programming Freedom] albert
acmfiu@serss0.fiu.edu (ACMFIU) (04/26/91)
acmfiu@serss0.fiu.edu (ACMFIU) writes: >. that is exactly why we must stop development for the apple II. it will >. hurt apple. if it didn't, then apple is not making _any_ money off the apple >. II, therefore apple would have to reason to keep making the machine. the >. fact of the matter is apple goes where the money is. if the apple II >. community let it be known that we would no longer support the machine, that >. would have a direct effect on apple's income (how much i don't know). i >. hope all programmers stop programming for the apple II (or release your >. software _only_ to those who will never ever buy another apple computer. I can't believe this. No one can be this bitter. . . i don't know if bitter is the word but i'm certainly not happy. . Albert, the lingering development for the II and its history in schools are the only reasons Apple is still making it. The recent bit about Consumer division means we might see some real mass-market versions of the ][ (great place for it, given how old the 8 bit series is and how easy it would be to make it a studly starter family machine, which is what Laser did). If everybody agreed with Albert then the ][ would die and all active production would stop within a month. I do not want to see this happen, I want them to produce a "they finally got it right" GS before the line is discontinued, so the GS will not simply fade into history after all. Todd Whitesel toddpw @ tybalt.caltech.edu . . at whos expense should they make a "they finally got it right" machine. . it would be nice for apple to say, "OK, we'll make a hootin'-tootin' GS . and give you a year to tell us everything you want in it. after that, . we'll be leaving the II line permanently and devote our lives to our . beloved machintosh computer. i would love for this to happen. because . then i still get my apple II and know that whatever i do won't feed apple's . grungy lawyers. but this is not reality, at least i don't think so. . . if everyone agreed with me the II line would be dead within a month. i . sure wish for this but it will never happen. i'm also sure there would be . people in the apple II software business aiming to shoot me in the head if . i could make this decision. . . i hope no one out there sees me as some "kid" ('kid' i am not) who wants . to end the II line just to end it. i do have a reason and have made that . clear. i love my II and will always be programming for it. one of the . reasons the II continues to live today is because of the religious . following it has. do you see people swearing by the IBM, Sun, NeXT, etc. . like us apple II folk are. i doubt it. that's also too bad. the II is . one of the few remaining hacking machines. all these "today" computers . just eat up gobbs and gobbs of memory and then kiss that "oversight" . aside because they have some screamin' RISC chip which they spent x dollars . on. i'm happy with my II though. what other computer ("today" computer), . will let you drop into the internals of the machine and do as you please. . how many "today" computer vendors encourage you to program in assembly . (let's forget portability here). and how many of their end users get . psyched when they spend x number of hours figuring out what address $xxxx . is for (oops, insert more x's for them "today" 32-bit mega-machines). . . the II will always be alive. at least that's my naive viewpoint. the GS . is definitely a better II. and i'm glad i have one. . . ps. when was the last time you programmed on your favorite mega-machine . and the size of your program was _less_ than the size of your code? . . albert
jerry@polygen.uucp (Jerry Shekhel) (04/27/91)
In article <3386@kluge.fiu.edu> acmfiu@serss0.fiu.edu (ACMFIU) writes: > >having used windows, apple has nothing to worry about in terms of GUI. windows >is the most pathetic interface i've ever seen on any computer. > What?! The GUI applications that are appearing right now, like PageMaker 4.0, are virtually identical on the Mac and Windows platforms. What is it about Windows that's so pathetic? This is no flame; I'd really like to know what you find so bad about Windows. -- +-------------------+----------------------+---------------------------------+ | JERRY J. SHEKHEL | POLYGEN CORPORATION | When I was young, I had to walk | | Drummers do it... | Waltham, MA USA | to school and back every day -- | | ... In rhythm! | (617) 890-2175 | 20 miles, uphill both ways. | +-------------------+----------------------+---------------------------------+ | ...! [ princeton mit-eddie bu sunne ] !polygen!jerry | | jerry@polygen.com | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
gt0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Gregory Ross Thompson) (04/28/91)
acmfiu@serss0.fiu.edu (ACMFIU) writes: > . if everyone agreed with me the II line would be dead within a month. i > . sure wish for this but it will never happen. i'm also sure there would be > . people in the apple II software business aiming to shoot me in the head if > . i could make this decision. So let me get this straight... You love you ][ so much that you want Apple to stop making it... Lemme guess, you loved your wife so much, you killed her so she'd never leave you, eh? > . i hope no one out there sees me as some "kid" ('kid' i am not) who wants > . to end the II line just to end it. i do have a reason and have made that > . clear. i love my II and will always be programming for it. one of the > . reasons the II continues to live today is because of the religious > . following it has. do you see people swearing by the IBM, Sun, NeXT, etc. > . like us apple II folk are. i doubt it. that's also too bad. the II is > . one of the few remaining hacking machines. all these "today" computers > . just eat up gobbs and gobbs of memory and then kiss that "oversight" > . aside because they have some screamin' RISC chip which they spent x dollars > . on. i'm happy with my II though. what other computer ("today" computer), > . will let you drop into the internals of the machine and do as you please. > . how many "today" computer vendors encourage you to program in assembly > . (let's forget portability here). and how many of their end users get > . psyched when they spend x number of hours figuring out what address $xxxx > . is for (oops, insert more x's for them "today" 32-bit mega-machines). Okay, you like your ][. That's good. I like mine too. So why the heck do you want Apple to STOP supporting it? > . the II will always be alive. at least that's my naive viewpoint. the GS > . is definitely a better II. and i'm glad i have one. Yeah, with your attitude, it won't... > . ps. when was the last time you programmed on your favorite mega-machine > . and the size of your program was _less_ than the size of your code? Tell ya what. Port Mathematica over to the GS, okay? Yeah, you guessed it. You can't. At least, you can't do a good job. I'm not trying to insult you. I'm stating a simple fact. The GS CANNOT do a competent job on something like Mathematica. That's why you buy that DECStation 3100, or that '040 NeXT box. Because it CAN do a good job. Hell, I use my GS all the time. I also use DECStations a lot. I love 'em both. I don't want DEC to go belly-up so that the 3100 will be immortalized, nor do I want Apple to go belly-up. The Apple ][ has already made it's mark. It's an amazing machine. Why do you want Apple to die? > . albert -Greg T. InterNet: gt0t+@andrew.cmu.edu BITNet : R746GT0T@CMCCVB AOL : GRThompson
philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) (04/28/91)
In article <3415@kluge.fiu.edu> acmfiu@serss0.fiu.edu (ACMFIU) writes: >acmfiu@serss0.fiu.edu (ACMFIU) writes: [nonstandard quoting re how to "deal" or not with Apple] >. following it has. do you see people swearing by the IBM, Sun, NeXT, etc. Well I really like my GS, and I do admit there's something very special about it. It is very much in the spirit of what a personal computer should( Could?) be. However, I might disagree with your re the NeXT. The people with NeXT's(of which I am one) are quite taken by the computer. I believe one NeXT developper( Declan) who occasionally drops in is also a GS user, and I take it he likes both. In my case, I prefer the GS. But don't discount the NeXT users. Now as for Sun's, etc...well it goes without saying that they are extremely hard to get close to. Philip McDunnough University of Toronto philip@utstat.utoronto.ca [my opinions,etc...]
MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (04/29/91)
On Fri, 26 Apr 91 17:55:52 GMT Jerry Shekhel said: > >What?! The GUI applications that are appearing right now, like PageMaker 4.0, >are virtually identical on the Mac and Windows platforms. What is it about >Windows that's so pathetic? This is no flame; I'd really like to know what >you find so bad about Windows. I know this wasn't directed to me, but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents worth in. (ever wonder why there was never a CENT special character on the A2? :) I, recently, had the dis-honerable 'pleasure' of installing Windows 386 on a model 70 PS/2. It was, by far, the most difficult program to set up that I've ever come accross. Not only was it difficult to setup, but OTHER applications have to be setup just to run under it. The screen updates are pretty slow (almost as slow as the GSs). There are several different 'MODES' it must be set to to run certain applications. The manual is impossibl e. I looked all over the manual on trying to find out how to get it to 'enhanced' mode. It crashes often (with my experience with it anyway). The mac, in my honest opinion, has the best GUI around, no matter how much I hate admitting that, it's my experience that that's the case. BUT that doesn't mean I like the mac the best, I can proudly say :) >+-------------------+----------------------+---------------------------------+ >| ...! [ princeton mit-eddie bu sunne ] !polygen!jerry | >| jerry@polygen.com | >+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ---------------------------------------- BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm <------------send files here pro-line-- mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com
jerry@polygen.uucp (Jerry Shekhel) (05/03/91)
In article <9104282143.AA09598@apple.com> MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET writes: > >I, recently, had the dis-honerable 'pleasure' of installing Windows 386 on >a model 70 PS/2. It was, by far, the most difficult program to set up that >I've ever come accross. > Jeez, you call a program "pathetic" because installing it requires you to set up a few hardware parameters? You people sure aren't ready for the UNIX world, where installing applications means setting up tons of files, license managers, environment variables, configuration scripts, etc. Seriously -- I've installed Windows 3.0 on several machines, and have never experienced anything but smooth sailing. Besides, many systems now come with Windows pre-installed, so it's becoming a non-issue. > >The screen updates >are pretty slow (almost as slow as the GSs). > Well, it's a well known fact that the on-board VGA in the older PS/2's is several times slower than most cheap add-in VGA cards. > >There are several different 'MODES' it must be set to to run certain >applications. > Yes, sometimes some effort must be put in to get Windows to run certain non-Windows (plain DOS) applications. But who wants to do that when Windows applications are so much better? > >The manual is impossible. I looked all over the manual on trying to >find out how to get it to 'enhanced' mode. > You must not have looked at the first few pages, then. Windows will automatically enter Enhanced Mode on a 386 with 2MB RAM or more. > >The mac, in my honest opinion, has the best GUI around, no matter how much >I hate admitting that, it's my experience that that's the case. BUT that >doesn't mean I like the mac the best, I can proudly say :) > The Mac interface IS nice, especially System 7.0 (I've seen it!) You should see how System 7.0 uses soft colors to create the illusion of 3D window borders and such. But Windows IS getting there, and it has some advantages over the Mac. > > BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm <------------send files here > pro-line-- mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com > -- +-------------------+----------------------+---------------------------------+ | JERRY J. SHEKHEL | POLYGEN CORPORATION | When I was young, I had to walk | | Drummers do it... | Waltham, MA USA | to school and back every day -- | | ... In rhythm! | (617) 890-2175 | 20 miles, uphill both ways. | +-------------------+----------------------+---------------------------------+ | ...! [ princeton mit-eddie bu sunne ] !polygen!jerry | | jerry@polygen.com | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
acmfiu@serss0.fiu.edu (ACMFIU) (05/04/91)
In article <Ec6b16O00WB3EH85UG@andrew.cmu.edu> gt0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Gregory Ross Thompson) writes: >acmfiu@serss0.fiu.edu (ACMFIU) writes: >> . if everyone agreed with me the II line would be dead within a month. i >> . sure wish for this but it will never happen. i'm also sure there would be >> . people in the apple II software business aiming to shoot me in the head if >> . i could make this decision. > > So let me get this straight... You love you ][ so much that you >want Apple to stop making it... > > Lemme guess, you loved your wife so much, you killed her so she'd >never leave you, eh? hey, no one was suppose to find out about the wife :) i dont' want apple to stop making the II. however, as long as they keep up their pursuit of copyrighting their GUI, i will continue to contend that the II should die to put less money in their pocket to feed their grungy lawyers. that's the only reason. i wonder what Woz, as a shareholder of apple, thinks about the suit? as far as i understand why ideas should be copyrighted, GUI's don't fall in this category. >> . ps. when was the last time you programmed on your favorite mega-machine >> . and the size of your program was _less_ than the size of your code? > > Tell ya what. Port Mathematica over to the GS, okay? Yeah, you >guessed it. You can't. At least, you can't do a good job. I'm not >trying to insult you. I'm stating a simple fact. The GS CANNOT do a >competent job on something like Mathematica. That's why you buy that >DECStation 3100, or that '040 NeXT box. Because it CAN do a good job. > > Hell, I use my GS all the time. I also use DECStations a lot. I >love 'em both. I don't want DEC to go belly-up so that the 3100 will >be immortalized, nor do I want Apple to go belly-up. The Apple ][ has >already made it's mark. It's an amazing machine. Why do you want >Apple to die? i don't mean _every_ program on computer X can be used on computer Y. if i said that, then i'd be a fool for thinking that Mathematica can be ported to the Timex Synclair. what i am talking about is the fact that programs now-a-days link in unbelievable amounts of code. ever seen a library written in C. if i ever distribute a compiler, i can guarantee you the library would be all in assembly. that's the way it should be. no need to bloat the end users code. decstations are nice machines. i won't argue that mega-machines are better than our little II's. my only contention is the size of code on your decstation because people don't program in assembly for it. most people who program on the mega-machines program in C. yes, it is easier. but the code is big. and i won't start talking about how much memory you have on your deckstation and the size of your swap files. > >> . albert > > -Greg T. > InterNet: gt0t+@andrew.cmu.edu > BITNet : R746GT0T@CMCCVB > AOL : GRThompson albert From: acmfiu@serss0.fiu.edu (ACMFIU) Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2 Subject: a2rd v apple Expires: References: Sender: Followup-To: Distribution: world Organization: Florida International University, Miami Keywords:
ericmcg@pnet91.cts.com (Eric Mcgillicuddy) (05/06/91)
>Seriously -- I've installed Windows 3.0 on several machines, and have >never experienced anything but smooth sailing. Besides, many systems now >come with Windows pre-installed, so it's becoming a non-issue. > >| JERRY J. SHEKHEL | POLYGEN CORPORATION | When I was young, I had to walk | You must have used standard drivers. When I installed Windows I wanted the ehnced 800x 600 by 256 mode available (real nice look I might add). This required a custom drive of course (OEM version of ATI Wonder card 512k). The installation allowed this, but got lost when asking for disks. It would ask for disk 3, but really needed #2 and then it asked for #2 but needed #4. The half dozen files or so it asked for required me to insert each disk until it found the file it wanted, total of about 20 disk swaps for 6 files. Once the video driver was insstalled, it continued without a hitch. Using it for about a month now and still don't really think it is that great. It is OK, but most games do not run in a window and I can find no way to download a long file and play Finest Hour at the same time. The manual is required reading, cover to cover, if you want to anything more than is possible from the File Manager. Ease of use is just slightly less than the GS's Finder, but I am not certain even this is worth the 50% improvement in performance (given that I am comparing 33MHz to 8MHz machines). Functionality is certainly not that different. Win3 has been hyped beyond its abilities, I find it OK, but not spectacular. Maybe I am just spoilt by my GS? :) (BTW a DOS coworker actually did tell me that) UUCP: bkj386!pnet91!ericmcg INET: ericmcg@pnet91.cts.com
dat33228@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Derek A. Taubert) (05/07/91)
In article <3492@kluge.fiu.edu> acmfiu@serss0.fiu.edu (ACMFIU) writes: > >i dont' want apple to stop making the II. however, as long as they keep up >their pursuit of copyrighting their GUI, i will continue to contend that >the II should die to put less money in their pocket to feed their grungy >lawyers. that's the only reason. i wonder what Woz, as a shareholder of >apple, thinks about the suit? Whoa. Since GUI seems to be your keyword here, why don't you go after the original apple GUI machine (ie : macintosh). Asking for the death of the II because of some conflicts with GUI is like protesting your local cable office because you don't like what's on the radio... -- + Derek Taubert --> derek@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu + Author of : GScii+ + + dat33228@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu + and the world's most useless + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ desk accessory -> Amaze me + + There are MOUSE technotes? + *******8-) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Ask me about my GS load meter + ^^^^^^^^^^ Marge Simpson +