v097pba8@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Ken F Morton) (04/23/91)
Someone mentioned that the Audio Animator has a 12 bit DAC built in correct? So it doesn't use the ensoniq d/a. Now can the GS play back 12 bit samples? I always thought it could only do 8 bit normally. Once and for all, is this true or not? If it can do 12 bit then wonderful things are a foot... thanks... Ken Morton "A vacant engineer rides on a v097pba8@ubvms.Bitnet train of thought that will not v097pba8@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu lead him home" - Edie Brickell
whitewolf@gnh-starport.cts.com (Tae Song) (04/29/91)
| Someone mentioned that the Audio Animator has a 12 bit DAC built |in correct? So it doesn't use the ensoniq d/a. Now can the GS play back |12 bit samples? I always thought it could only do 8 bit normally. Once |and for all, is this true or not? If it can do 12 bit then wonderful things |are a foot... | | thanks... I think I'm the one who mentioned it. Yes the Audio Animator does have a 12-bit DAC. The audio gets sampled as 12 bit, but saved as 8 bit. The Ensoniq has a built 4-bit DAC. AE probablely used a 12-bit to do oversampling, which helps improve sampling resolution and accruracy. Don't except CD quality though, after all the Ensoniq does only 8-bits, but it's still much better than any other computer when comes to sound... with the exception of the NeXT which does 16-bit CD quality audio. I was going to say something else, but now, I've forgotten. INET: whitewolf@gnh-starport.cts.com UUCP: crash!gnh-starport!whitewolf ARPA: crash!gnh-starport!whitewolf@nosc.mil
philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) (04/29/91)
In article <m0jXFPu-00007ZC@jartel.info.com> whitewolf@gnh-starport.cts.com (Tae Song) writes: [stuff dealing with the AA, GS sound, 12bit,8bit,4bit,etc...] >though, after all the Ensoniq does only 8-bits, but it's still much better than >any other computer when comes to sound... with the exception of the NeXT which >does 16-bit CD quality audio. I have both a GS and a NeXT(cube/040). There is this issue of digital versus synthesized sound. I have yet to hear anything on the NeXT that comes anywhere near the quality of some of the sounds coming out of Diversi-Tune. Digitized sounds take up enormous space and use a lot of RAM. It would seem to me that MIDI( using the Ensoniq's midi mode) is a far better way to store musical sounds at least, and as for digitized sounds, one would be better off (I think, not sure here) storing the Fourier coefficients of the decomposition rather than the whole waveform. Somehow I have this feeling that digitizing is simply not the way to go, not only for music but also for other forms of sound. The NeXT has a demo program called Ensemble which uses up an enormous amount of RAM(it keeps crashing on my 16meg cube). It will play back midi files. It's nowhere near as good as Diversi-Tune. The PC's now have this M-Sound device which attaches to the || port and uses a DSP chip. It would be interesting to compare it to the 8 bit Mac digitized way of handling sound. Philip McDunnough University of Toronto philip@utstat.utoronto.ca
6600prao@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Parik Rao) (04/29/91)
There is no "ensoniq midi mode" on the IIgs. Whats happening is that
a bunch of instruments are stored in the 64k area of the DOC ram
(totally seperate from main memory). Then each MIDI note is translated
into a certain frequency (a combination of how many bytes to skip in
the instrument ["speed"], and how long to play the sound) and that
frequency is used to play the digitized instruments.
Drawbacks?
[a] 64k limit for instruments
[b] instrument quality
[c] the routine to convert from a "human" (MIDI,etc) value to a
frequency can be complicated. Fortunately, things like SynthLab
and Soundsmith automate this.
Now, on the IIgs [a] is the biggest problem. The IIgs offers 15
(Soundsmith and Synthlab only allow 14, since they use the 15th for a
timer) generators, so you can have many different notes playing at
once (Synthlab combines multiple generators for a more richer sound).
Unfortunately, with only 64k for instruments it tends to be a real
pisser! Someone has done a 128k DOC ram hardware mod, you can email
him on AO @ CENTAURC (he's also on GEnie, dunno his address).
On the Amiga/IBM, you have a much larger space for instruments (on the
amiga, its the size of chip ram, on the ibm, its practically
unlimited) but less channels, so you can have better sounds.
The NeXT does sound better, I think you haven't gotten the good stuff
yet (no ones really written a nice midi player as far as I know). But
once someone does, with 16 bit sampled instruments, and unlimited
size for the instruments, things could be hot!
BTW, the ensoniq on the IIgs automates a lot of things, whereas on
the amiga and such a lot of extra overhead is required to just start
up a sound (latching onto the dma, a synchronized interrupt, etc).
I hope that helps a bit, I'm not 100% sure on the above of course but a
few years of experimenting has helped out. :-)
--
Apple II Forever | 6600prao@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu | IBMs get the job done
Parik Rao | Amiga - for the creative mind | Class of 1994
Macintosh - buy it or Apple will sue you.rlcollins@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Ryan 'Gozar' Collins) (04/30/91)
In article <m0jXFPu-00007ZC@jartel.info.com>, whitewolf@gnh-starport.cts.com (Tae Song) writes: > helps improve sampling resolution and accruracy. Don't except CD quality > though, after all the Ensoniq does only 8-bits, but it's still much better than > any other computer when comes to sound... with the exception of the NeXT which > does 16-bit CD quality audio. (\ /) |A|nd the new Atari STe's (and TT's) , which are capable of playing CD (/ \) quality sound in STEREO!!! (and with now other hardware!) (I know this is an Apple ][ group, but I feel that computer users should know what all is out there!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ryan 'Gozar' Collins Question for MAC Users: rlcollins@miavx1.BITNET |||| Power Without What IS the format of a rc1dsanu@miamiu.BITNET / || \ The Price!! MAC HFS floppy disk? R.COLLINS1 on GEnie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
rlcollins@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Ryan 'Gozar' Collins) (04/30/91)
In article <1991Apr28.221627.24547@utstat.uucp>, philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) writes: > In article <m0jXFPu-00007ZC@jartel.info.com> whitewolf@gnh-starport.cts.com (Tae Song) writes: > > [stuff dealing with the AA, GS sound, 12bit,8bit,4bit,etc...] > >>though, after all the Ensoniq does only 8-bits, but it's still much better than >>any other computer when comes to sound... with the exception of the NeXT which >>does 16-bit CD quality audio. > > I have both a GS and a NeXT(cube/040). There is this issue of digital > versus synthesized sound. I have yet to hear anything on the NeXT that > comes anywhere near the quality of some of the sounds coming out of > Diversi-Tune. Digitized sounds take up enormous space and use a lot of > RAM. It would seem to me that MIDI( using the Ensoniq's midi mode) is a > far better way to store musical sounds at least, and as for digitized > sounds, one would be better off (I think, not sure here) storing the > Fourier coefficients of the decomposition rather than the whole waveform. > Somehow I have this feeling that digitizing is simply not the way to go, > not only for music but also for other forms of sound. (\ /) |A| lot of movie companies are moving toward using digitized sound for the (/ \) soundtracks and special effects. The music for the movie Born on the Fourth of July was all digitized and edited with an Atari ST. (I figure they had to use some outside electroncs, since the old STs weren't capable of reproducing that quality of sound) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ryan 'Gozar' Collins Question for MAC Users: rlcollins@miavx1.BITNET |||| Power Without What IS the format of a rc1dsanu@miamiu.BITNET / || \ The Price!! MAC HFS floppy disk? R.COLLINS1 on GEnie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
taob@pnet91.cts.com (Brian Tao) (04/30/91)
From 6600prao@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Parik Rao): > But once someone does, with 16 bit sampled instruments, and unlimited > size for the instruments, things could be hot! Maybe someone should design a MIDI card with extra sound support onboard for the GS (like a megabyte of dedicated waveform RAM, a few ADC/DAC chips, noise-reduction circuitry, 16-bit sampling, all the various MIDI stuff, etc.). The problem with keeping good 16-bit waveforms in RAM is memory space. That's why I suggest having a sound card with a separate dedicated memory space. Most people don't realize how much a decent instrument waveform can take up. For a really nice grand piano sample, 1 megabyte is not unrealistic (separate samples for every key). Brian T. Tao *B-) | t569taob@bluffs.scar.utoronto.ca | "Though this be U of Metro Toronto | - or - | madness, yet there Scarberia, ON | taob@pnet91.cts.com | is method in 't."
alfter@nevada.edu (SCOTT ALFTER) (04/30/91)
In article <5069.281c1c71@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu> rlcollins@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Ryan 'Gozar' Collins) writes: >(\ /) > |A|nd the new Atari STe's (and TT's) , which are capable of playing CD >(/ \) quality sound in STEREO!!! (and with now other hardware!) Yeah, but where's all the software? Hell, even the Apple II is a more prominent name in the modern computing scene than the ST. At least the II has a past (and some future) and the IBM clones and (ugh) Macs have a future. You're stuck with neither if you have an ST. Besides, the ST's graphics aren't all that impressive--only 512 colors? Even the IIGS does better! (You probably wouldn't have a 3200-color mode even if you did have the 4K colors, either.) Processors? Atari is still toying with the 68000 when Apple and Commodore have moved to the 68030. Expandability? Where are the slots? Slots have kept the Apple II alive for 14 years! I don't think the Atari ST is an option for serious computer users. Scott Alfter-----------------------------_/_---------------------------- Call the Skunk Works BBS (702) 896-2676 / v \ 6 PM-6 AM 300/1200/2400 Internet: alfter@uns-helios.nevada.edu ( ( Apple II: GEnie: S.ALFTER \_^_/ the power to be your best!
MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (05/02/91)
On Mon, 29 Apr 91 21:01:51 GMT SCOTT ALFTER said: >In article <5069.281c1c71@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu> > >Yeah, but where's all the software? Hell, even the Apple II is a more >prominent name in the modern computing scene than the ST. If you're ever in the L.A. area, go to the Guitar Shop (or Store?) in the back, upstairs, where they have all their MIDI keyboards. They're all hooked up to Atari STs. >At least >the II has a past (and some future) and the IBM clones and (ugh) Macs >have a future. You're stuck with neither if you have an ST. Besides, >the ST's graphics aren't all that impressive--only 512 colors? Even >the IIGS does better! (You probably wouldn't have a 3200-color mode >even if you did have the 4K colors, either.) Processors? Atari is The Ataris' 512 color mode is done using the same technique the GS uses to get 3200 colors. The ST can only display 16 per line and has to use CPU cycles to get 512 colors... then, you're stuck and can't do anything else. >still toying with the 68000 when Apple and Commodore have moved to the >68030. Expandability? Where are the slots? Slots have kept the >Apple II alive for 14 years! Atari just came out with a new computer. It uses the 68030. I think it has a 4,096 color pallete too, but I'm not sure. It STILL doesn't have slots though. It's also about 2 or 3 thousand dollars. >I don't think the Atari ST is an option for serious computer users. It might be soon. They're really starting to put some power in those machines. You can also get a Mac emulator board for it. >Scott Alfter-----------------------------_/_---------------------------- >Call the Skunk Works BBS (702) 896-2676 / v \ 6 PM-6 AM 300/1200/2400 >Internet: alfter@uns-helios.nevada.edu ( ( Apple II: > GEnie: S.ALFTER \_^_/ the power to be your best! ---------------------------------------- BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm <------------send files here pro-line-- mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com
rlcollins@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Ryan 'Gozar' Collins) (05/03/91)
[I sent a similar message to Scott, but I thought I would clear up some misconceptions for all of you] In article <9105020034.AA14949@apple.com>, MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET writes: > On Mon, 29 Apr 91 21:01:51 GMT SCOTT ALFTER said: >>In article <5069.281c1c71@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu> >>At least >>the II has a past (and some future) and the IBM clones and (ugh) Macs >>have a future. You're stuck with neither if you have an ST. Besides, >>the ST's graphics aren't all that impressive--only 512 colors? Even >>the IIGS does better! (You probably wouldn't have a 3200-color mode >>even if you did have the 4K colors, either.) Processors? Atari is > > The Ataris' 512 color mode is done using the same technique the GS uses to > get 3200 colors. The ST can only display 16 per line and has to use > CPU cycles to get 512 colors... then, you're stuck and can't do anything else. The entire 68000 and 68030 line that Atari now makes is capable of 4096 colors. They also have hardware scrolling, DMA sound, and a 16 MHz option. >>still toying with the 68000 when Apple and Commodore have moved to the >>68030. Expandability? Where are the slots? Slots have kept the >>Apple II alive for 14 years! > > Atari just came out with a new computer. It uses the 68030. I think it has > a 4,096 color pallete too, but I'm not sure. It STILL doesn't have slots > though. It's also about 2 or 3 thousand dollars. Even the 1040 STe has 4096 colors, and it only costs $400. (With one floppy and a meg of RAM) The Mega STe and the TT both have one slot, which is a VME slot. (And with all the built-ins, slot become more of an expensive option rather than a conveinence.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ryan 'Gozar' Collins Question for MAC Users: rlcollins@miavx1.BITNET |||| Power Without What IS the format of a rc1dsanu@miamiu.BITNET / || \ The Price!! MAC HFS floppy disk? R.COLLINS1 on GEnie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
alfter@nevada.edu (SCOTT ALFTER) (05/03/91)
In article <5146.28201476@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu> rlcollins@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Ryan 'Gozar' Collins) writes: >[I sent a similar message to Scott, but I thought I would clear up some >misconceptions for all of you] Actually, you sent a null message--just my last message, followed by your .sig. >Even the 1040 STe has 4096 colors, and it only costs $400. (With one >floppy and a meg of RAM) The Mega STe and the TT both have one slot, >which is a VME slot. Whatever that is...it isn't NuBus and it isn't EISA (or even the older ISA). Granted, the Apple II also uses a proprietary bus design, but you can afford a proprietary design when you have over 6 million computers installed. > (And with all the built-ins, slot become more of an >expensive option rather than a conveinence.) Read my earlier post...anybody who tries telling you that you don't need slots is full of shit. (Funny...Steve Jobs was trying to tell that to everybody at Apple a few years back, and guess what happened to him?) What if you want more serial ports for a multi-line BBS, or data acquisition (A/D & D/A), networking (can be Ethernet, AppleTalk, or anything else), send-fax, or any of several other things? You're up a creek if you don't have slots. Scott Alfter-----------------------------_/_---------------------------- Call the Skunk Works BBS (702) 896-2676 / v \ 6 PM-6 AM 300/1200/2400 Internet: alfter@uns-helios.nevada.edu ( ( Apple II: GEnie: S.ALFTER \_^_/ the power to be your best!
anarch@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (The Anarch) (05/03/91)
In article <1991May2.201628.9534@nevada.edu> alfter@nevada.edu (SCOTT ALFTER) writes: >In article <5146.28201476@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu> rlcollins@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Ryan 'Gozar' Collins) writes: >>The Mega STe and the TT both have one slot, which is a VME slot. > >Whatever that is...it isn't NuBus and it isn't EISA (or even the older >ISA). Granted, the Apple II also uses a proprietary bus design, but >you can afford a proprietary design when you have over 6 million >computers installed. >[...] >Scott Alfter-----------------------------_/_---------------------------- Hee hee...there are probably more cards available for VME than for NuBus and EISA combined. Well, that's an exaggeration--I have no idea of the actual numbers--but there are definitely a *lot* of VME cards out there; it's anything but a proprietary design. VME (Versa something Eurocard) has been around as a common 680x0 bus for over ten years. It's an adaptation of Motorola's VersaBus, designed to accept Eurocard format boards. It's pretty much a standard in industrial environments, and there is a great deal of very high-powered hardware available for it. A place that I worked at for a while had a computer that was basically a VME card cage. It had four cards installed, each with 2 68020s and 4M memory. I wonder what one of those could make out of an ST? -- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-anarch@dartmouth.edu+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Thy hand, great Anarch! lets the curtain fall, And universal darkness buries all. D I S C L A I M E R : E V E R Y T H I N G I W R I T E I S F A L S E
philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) (05/03/91)
In article <1991May3.042214.20311@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> anarch@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (The Anarch) writes: [more on slots, bus, support for the VME bus] > Hee hee...there are probably more cards available for VME than for >NuBus and EISA combined. Well, that's an exaggeration--I have no idea >of the actual numbers--but there are definitely a *lot* of VME cards out >there; it's anything but a proprietary design. The idea of using a VME bus in a micro computer is somewhat odd. Even HP in its new "snakes"(50 and 70 mip workstations approximately) has chosen to go with a micro bus, namely the EISA. Furthermore, IBM's RS/6000 uses the micro channel. There are plenty of inexpensive cards for virtually any peripheral now for both the MCA and the ISA/EISA. The notion of Atari using a VME bus in its TT strikes me as being very strange indeed. While we are on Atari, let me add that they do produce a nice product.So does Commodore with the Amiga. I suspect that the reason many of us find the AppleII() to our taste is the very high quality of programmers available for that platform, both in and outside Apple. This is less clear for the other two, although they certainly do have a following in Germany. Philip McDunnough University of Toronto philip@utstat.utoronto.ca [my opinions,etc...]
alfter@nevada.edu (SCOTT ALFTER) (05/04/91)
In article <1991May3.042214.20311@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> anarch@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (The Anarch) writes: > Hee hee...there are probably more cards available for VME than for >NuBus and EISA combined. [...] VME (Versa something >Eurocard) has been around as a common 680x0 bus for over ten years. >It's an adaptation of Motorola's VersaBus, designed to accept Eurocard >format boards. Strange...if this is such a standard, why do you never see it advertised anywhere in the computer magazines? In all my searching through Computer Shopper, and in occasional glimpses in PC Magazine and Macworld (the latter would be more relevant to a 680x0 bus), I've never seen anything about VME. (But you did say that it's something European; that's probably why the stuff is non-mainstream here in the U.S.) Scott Alfter-----------------------------_/_---------------------------- Call the Skunk Works BBS (702) 896-2676 / v \ 6 PM-6 AM 300/1200/2400 Internet: alfter@uns-helios.nevada.edu ( ( Apple II: GEnie: S.ALFTER \_^_/ the power to be your best!
rlcollins@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Ryan 'Gozar' Collins) (05/04/91)
In article <1991May2.201628.9534@nevada.edu>, alfter@nevada.edu (SCOTT ALFTER) writes: > In article <5146.28201476@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu> rlcollins@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Ryan 'Gozar' Collins) writes: >>[I sent a similar message to Scott, but I thought I would clear up some >>misconceptions for all of you] > > Actually, you sent a null message--just my last message, followed by > your .sig. Sorry!! :*) >>Even the 1040 STe has 4096 colors, and it only costs $400. (With one >>floppy and a meg of RAM) The Mega STe and the TT both have one slot, >>which is a VME slot. > > Whatever that is...it isn't NuBus and it isn't EISA (or even the older > ISA). Granted, the Apple II also uses a proprietary bus design, but > you can afford a proprietary design when you have over 6 million > computers installed. It's a standard slot architecture, used mainly in workstations. So there is already a multitude of cards available, include ethernet cards and graphic cards. >> (And with all the built-ins, slot become more of an >>expensive option rather than a conveinence.) > > Read my earlier post...anybody who tries telling you that you don't > need slots is full of shit. (Funny...Steve Jobs was trying to tell > that to everybody at Apple a few years back, and guess what happened > to him?) What if you want more serial ports for a multi-line BBS, or > data acquisition (A/D & D/A), networking (can be Ethernet, AppleTalk, > or anything else), send-fax, or any of several other things? You're > up a creek if you don't have slots. It depends on the market the machine is designed for. A low end STe has everything required for a power user, and if the user wants to do data acquisition and the like, he's going to buying a Mega STe/TT that has a slot. Slots aren't that bad, but every computer doesn't need them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ryan 'Gozar' Collins Question for MAC Users: rlcollins@miavx1.BITNET |||| Power Without What IS the format of a rc1dsanu@miamiu.BITNET / || \ The Price!! MAC HFS floppy disk? R.COLLINS1 on GEnie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
anarch@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (The Anarch) (05/05/91)
In article <1991May3.175024.29761@nevada.edu> alfter@nevada.edu (SCOTT ALFTER) writes: >Strange...if this [VME] is such a standard, why do you never see it >advertised anywhere in the computer magazines? In all my searching >through Computer Shopper, and in occasional glimpses in PC Magazine >and Macworld (the latter would be more relevant to a 680x0 bus), I've >never seen anything about VME. (But you did say that it's something >European; that's probably why the stuff is non-mainstream here in the >U.S.) It's actually quite popular in the US--the "European" is just from the name of the card format -- but not in the PC world. Virtually all of the VME stuff I have seen has been in industrial situations. For that reason, VME *is* kind of strange to use as a bus for a PC like the Atari. The stuff that's out there is not really oriented towards the typical Atari user--it's all for people who want to control robotic assembly lines and things like that. -- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-anarch@dartmouth.edu+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Thy hand, great Anarch! lets the curtain fall, And universal darkness buries all. D I S C L A I M E R : E V E R Y T H I N G I W R I T E I S F A L S E
ericmcg@pnet91.cts.com (Eric Mcgillicuddy) (05/06/91)
>Strange...if this is such a standard, why do you never see it >advertised anywhere in the computer magazines? In all my searching >through Computer Shopper, and in occasional glimpses in PC Magazine >and Macworld (the latter would be more relevant to a 680x0 bus), I've >never seen anything about VME. (But you did say that it's something >European; that's probably why the stuff is non-mainstream here in the >U.S.) > >Scott Alfter-----------------------------_/_---------------------------- I have seen ads, ElectronicsDesign I believe. Certainly in a braod range of industrial trade papers, even had a semester dedicated to this bus and a few others (STD, VME, and NuBus ). The Mac II implementation of NuBus uses the same European connector (or a very close relative). In my opinion is is a much better design than "slots", but it is also much more expensive and its applicability to low cost micros may not be appropriate. VME is not the kind of bus you would expect to find a lot of home computer type cards available for. UUCP: bkj386!pnet91!ericmcg INET: ericmcg@pnet91.cts.com
whitewolf@gnh-starport.cts.com (Tae Song) (05/15/91)
This is to the Atari-freak who said the TT or STe had 16-bit sound... Not. I've check the magazines and reviews, it's the same old sound capability as the original ST. 4 voice, stereo, 8-bit sound. INET: whitewolf@gnh-starport.cts.com UUCP: crash!gnh-starport!whitewolf ARPA: crash!gnh-starport!whitewolf@nosc.mil