davewh@microsoft.UUCP (05/15/91)
ACMFIU talks about Windows: (sorry, but I can't do direct quoting, so
there will be paraphrasing.)
point 1 states that Windows is too slow. I use Win3.0 on a Compaq
386/20e and it runs satisfactorally. It's at least faster than my GS
at home.
point 2 complains about it running on top of DOS. This is, actually,
irrelevant. It uses DOS for file I/O and that's about it. It does
it's own memory management, and if you have a 386 and 1MB+, it'll do
virtual memory too.
point 3 states that keyboard UI is not consistent across programs.
This is/isn't true. The menu accelerators are, for the most part,
consistent. There are 2 ways at getting at menus: the accelerator and
the hot key (dunno if these are the correct names, though). One can
type ALT-F, ALT-S to save, or possibly hit some function key instead
(yeah, TWO keystrokes to invoke menu commands - I don't like it).
File/Save is consistent - the function keys sometimes aren't.
point 4 talks about the Finder. Yeah, the "finder" sucks for doing
file manipulation. The File Manager is supposed to do that. The
Program Manager (the finder) is designed to just organize things. The
windows have no relation to directory structure and the icon names
have no relation to the file names. I find it useful for what it's
supposed to do, but I'd rather have a Finder.
point 5 talks about required hardware. I can't answer on this since
I'm sure what Windows really requires. I know I have a vanilla Compaq
386/20e - 100mb drive, 5mb ram; *almost* what you might call common
for the average business customer (that's why we use 'em for testing).
point 6 mentions that the learning curve for Windows is steeper than
for MacOS. I completely disagree. Windows was so simple to learn. I'm
up and running after only 3 months of working here. I don't know
where this 9 month learning curve came from, but not from here.
point 7 talks about how quickly a user can come up to speed. It's
harder for to judge this since I'm not exactly an average user. I do
think moving to a new computer platform, whatever it may be, takes
some people more time than others. People feel intimidated by the
machine. Just to make a point, at my old job there was a newhire who
had her experience on unix machines. She just couldn't stand using
the Macs we had. Found them too hard to use. Now, for running
Windows-based applications, it's not any harder to learn to use
them than it is to learn to use a Mac-based program. Same thing for
programs on a NeXT - they're all pretty simple.
point 8 talks about desktop publishers. Well, people doing serious
desktop publishing probably shouldn't be using dinky computers
anyway. Dinky computers running dinky DTP software do just fine for
your average weekly or monthly newsletter or what-have-you. I would
presume that PageMaker is mighty similar in capabilities across the
platforms. This is to the company's advantage as then they can say,
"hey, we work in a mixed environment!" Just take a look at Excel 3.0
- everything about it is virtually identical between the Mac and
Windows versions. In fact, the two versions can read each other's
files as they are the same format. Any company that does otherwise is
foolish.
point 9 mentions how Windows fails to fully abstract the machine
away. I agree. Some people like this, though (I don't).
point 10 says Microsoft owns it. Well of course we own it. We wrote
it. Legal battles aside, we wrote it. The programming paradigm is so
different from the MacOS that I really doubt that code was stolen
(which was mentioned some time ago). Saying that Microsoft owns
something is a point against it a stupid argument. That's like saying
a car brand sucks because your hated 6th grade teacher owns one.
point 11 I don't understand. A GUI is a UI which runs with windows
and mice and pointing, clicking, dragging, etc. Windows, MacOS,
GS/OS, X, Open Look, GEM, GEOS are all GUIs.
My big point here is that most of you appear to be pretty
closed-minded. I'm still a big Apple fan - I'll keep programming on
my GS as long as it functions. It's just that there are other
computers and programming and user environments out there. None of
them are the end-all to computing power. Everything has it's own
advantages and disadvantages. Yet you people insist on hitting hard
against something that seems a threat. I was just as much a Windows
basher as the rest of you until I had to learn to live with it. Now I
see that it's not so bad as the Mac press made it out to be. In fact,
it's much better than the Mac press said it was.
How many people here use Windows daily as part of their job? I used
Macs daily as part of my job for 3 1/2 years. Now I use Windows and
Presentation Manager as part of my job. They all work just fine. If
you haven't *really* used Windows as part of your daily existence,
then you haven't got a right to bash it. Now, if you do use all the
time and you don't like it, then fine - you don't like it. There are
things I don't like (as I've already mentioned) and there are things
I do like. But that's true of every environment I've used.
Dave Whitney Microsoft Corp, Work Group Apps dcw@goldilocks.lcs.mit.edu or
I wrote Z-Link and BinSCII - send me bug reports. {...}!uunet!microsoft!davewh
I only work here. All opinions herein aren't Bill's, they're mine.
"We're samplin' - Yeah we're doin' it. We take good music an' we ruin it."
-- "Rap Isn't Music"ericmcg@pnet91.cts.com (Eric Mcgillicuddy) (05/18/91)
>point 5 talks about required hardware. I can't answer on this since >I'm sure what Windows really requires. I know I have a vanilla Compaq >386/20e - 100mb drive, 5mb ram; *almost* what you might call common >for the average business customer (that's why we use 'em for testing). Not on the planet I'm living on. 16MHz, 1Meg (maybe 2), mostly 286, but being replaced by real 386 (few SX, but no new purchases), 30Meg drive with 330Meg on servers (averages to 40Meg per user) >point 1 states that Windows is too slow. I use Win3.0 on a Compaq >386/20e and it runs satisfactorally. It's at least faster than my GS >at home. Is it 10 times as fast? No, about 50% faster. >point 7 talks about how quickly a user can come up to speed. It's >harder for to judge this since I'm not exactly an average user. I do >think moving to a new computer platform, whatever it may be, takes >some people more time than others. People feel intimidated by the Depends what you mean by "speed". Have been using micros for 5 years, but only got GUI a year ago Christmas. Took all of a day to master the GS. I still have no idea how to multitask two DOS programs on Windows. Logically Double click one then double the other. Presto, it's working. Don't know why the program mananger goes away before I am finished starting up the other program. I can launch single programs, but can not delete files and can not browse subdirectories easily. Not sure how one copies between folders. And I've been using Windows 3.0 every night for the last three weeks, I don't think it is possible to be up to speed without thoroughly reading the manual. >My big point here is that most of you appear to be pretty >closed-minded. I'm still a big Apple fan - I'll keep programming on >my GS as long as it functions. It's just that there are other >computers and programming and user environments out there. None of I suppose I can be, but I can not see spending $2k for a system that is no better than the one I currently have. The big problem is that everyone says Windows is great, an tremndous improvement is how we use computers and how wonderful the thing is. The reality is that this is only relative to what "we" have been using previously, "c:>". Those of use that have have not been saddled with just this don't get the point. I don't want a computer that has a better shell than MS-DOS, I want a computer that is better than my GS. Windows on a 386 is just about even at this stage, but only because I accept the trade off of advanced features for user freindliness. UUCP: bkj386!pnet91!ericmcg INET: ericmcg@pnet91.cts.com
acmfiu@serss0.fiu.edu (ACMFIU) (05/21/91)
In article <9105161702.AA27651@beaver.cs.washington.edu> davewh@microsoft.UUCP writes: } }ACMFIU talks about Windows: (sorry, but I can't do direct quoting, so }there will be paraphrasing.) i'd feel sorry too. however, i sympathize since i can't do it via 'Mail' either (well directly anyway). }point 1 states that Windows is too slow. I use Win3.0 on a Compaq }386/20e and it runs satisfactorally. It's at least faster than my GS }at home. well, i don't know the mhz on the 386sx here. and of course it's faster than the GS. i'd really hope so. running "satisfactorally" is user-defined. i lik the windows instantly appearing on the machine. would it be correct to compare a 15mhz GS with your 386/20e. if you agree to this and the 15mhz comes available for the GS i think the GS GUI would run faster than your Compaq. }point 2 complains about it running on top of DOS. This is, actually, }irrelevant. It uses DOS for file I/O and that's about it. It does }it's own memory management, and if you have a 386 and 1MB+, it'll do }virtual memory too. ok. }point 3 states that keyboard UI is not consistent across programs. }This is/isn't true. The menu accelerators are, for the most part, }consistent. There are 2 ways at getting at menus: the accelerator and }the hot key (dunno if these are the correct names, though). One can }type ALT-F, ALT-S to save, or possibly hit some function key instead }(yeah, TWO keystrokes to invoke menu commands - I don't like it). }File/Save is consistent - the function keys sometimes aren't. this is/isn't true proves my point. now someone pointed out that Microsoft's applications are all consistent. should we then use the argument that *all* and apple's apps are consistent. this is not saying much for the other people developing software for Windows. they should keep everything consistent, whether Microsoft makes it or not. same applies to Apple, Sun, NeXT, etc. }point 4 talks about the Finder. Yeah, the "finder" sucks for doing }file manipulation. The File Manager is supposed to do that. The }Program Manager (the finder) is designed to just organize things. The }windows have no relation to directory structure and the icon names }have no relation to the file names. I find it useful for what it's }supposed to do, but I'd rather have a Finder. the file manager was what i was talking about. that i loathe. }point 5 talks about required hardware. I can't answer on this since }I'm sure what Windows really requires. I know I have a vanilla Compaq }386/20e - 100mb drive, 5mb ram; *almost* what you might call common }for the average business customer (that's why we use 'em for testing). i don't know about average business customer. the company i work for doesn't have *near* that. then again, most people hear just run PFS:Write and Lotus. however, we've moved up to WordPerfect v5.1 (ooh, aah). i don't know if we are going to move up to Windows but there would be considerable cost in upgrading our systems (most people now have ps/2 286 boxes but we still have XT's here). }point 6 mentions that the learning curve for Windows is steeper than }for MacOS. I completely disagree. Windows was so simple to learn. I'm }up and running after only 3 months of working here. I don't know }where this 9 month learning curve came from, but not from here. i was also weary of the 9-month curve. note that i quoted that from the context of a programmer getting used to writing apps for windows, not an end-user. since i'm really unsure about this, i'll just drop it. }point 7 talks about how quickly a user can come up to speed. It's }harder for to judge this since I'm not exactly an average user. I do }think moving to a new computer platform, whatever it may be, takes }some people more time than others. People feel intimidated by the }machine. Just to make a point, at my old job there was a newhire who }had her experience on unix machines. She just couldn't stand using }the Macs we had. Found them too hard to use. Now, for running }Windows-based applications, it's not any harder to learn to use }them than it is to learn to use a Mac-based program. Same thing for }programs on a NeXT - they're all pretty simple. ok. }point 8 talks about desktop publishers. Well, people doing serious }desktop publishing probably shouldn't be using dinky computers }anyway. Dinky computers running dinky DTP software do just fine for }your average weekly or monthly newsletter or what-have-you. I would }presume that PageMaker is mighty similar in capabilities across the }platforms. This is to the company's advantage as then they can say, }"hey, we work in a mixed environment!" Just take a look at Excel 3.0 }- everything about it is virtually identical between the Mac and }Windows versions. In fact, the two versions can read each other's }files as they are the same format. Any company that does otherwise is }foolish. i was talking about DTP'ers on Mac's v. PC's. yes, they shouldn't be using dinky computers. however, you'd be surprised at the job some Mac DTP packages (i'm talking expensive ones) can do. just wait 'til Gutenberg for the Mac hits the market. }point 9 mentions how Windows fails to fully abstract the machine }away. I agree. Some people like this, though (I don't). ok. }point 10 says Microsoft owns it. Well of course we own it. We wrote }it. Legal battles aside, we wrote it. The programming paradigm is so }different from the MacOS that I really doubt that code was stolen }(which was mentioned some time ago). Saying that Microsoft owns }something is a point against it a stupid argument. That's like saying }a car brand sucks because your hated 6th grade teacher owns one. i disagree. then again, i was just doing this to say that i don't like Microsoft :) i won't get into a discussion about Mac v. Windows code. that i know nothing about. }point 11 I don't understand. A GUI is a UI which runs with windows }and mice and pointing, clicking, dragging, etc. Windows, MacOS, }GS/OS, X, Open Look, GEM, GEOS are all GUIs. well, i've used the Mac, Windows, Open Look, GS/OS, and GEOS gui and think the ones i dislike the most are Windows and GEOS. the smoothest by far is Open Look. i would use that above any one currently on the market. }My big point here is that most of you appear to be pretty }closed-minded. I'm still a big Apple fan - I'll keep programming on }my GS as long as it functions. It's just that there are other }computers and programming and user environments out there. None of }them are the end-all to computing power. Everything has it's own }advantages and disadvantages. Yet you people insist on hitting hard }against something that seems a threat. I was just as much a Windows }basher as the rest of you until I had to learn to live with it. Now I }see that it's not so bad as the Mac press made it out to be. In fact, }it's much better than the Mac press said it was. well, i don't believe the Mac press. however, i'll stick to Open Look as my "end-all" of interfaces. }How many people here use Windows daily as part of their job? I used }Macs daily as part of my job for 3 1/2 years. Now I use Windows and }Presentation Manager as part of my job. They all work just fine. If }you haven't *really* used Windows as part of your daily existence, }then you haven't got a right to bash it. Now, if you do use all the }time and you don't like it, then fine - you don't like it. There are }things I don't like (as I've already mentioned) and there are things }I do like. But that's true of every environment I've used. i don't any more. but i use to. that's where i draw my experience from (not too far back by the way). i'm just glad i don't use it any more. of course this is just me and i tend to be *very* picky. }Dave Whitney Microsoft Corp, Work Group Apps dcw@goldilocks.lcs.mit.edu or }I wrote Z-Link and BinSCII - send me bug reports. {...}!uunet!microsoft!davewh }I only work here. All opinions herein aren't Bill's, they're mine. }"We're samplin' - Yeah we're doin' it. We take good music an' we ruin it." } -- "Rap Isn't Music" albert chin Sterling Motor Cars, MIS acmfiu@fiu.edu or i wrote coff and ls - send me bug reports. 26285659t@servax.fiu.edu i only work here. all opinions herein aren't Graham's, they're mine. "Thus spake the Master Programmer, 'After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'" -- The Tao of Programming i hate .sigs