chiu@ucsee (05/31/91)
In article <1520025@hpcc01.HP.COM> drudman@hpcc01.HP.COM (Drew Rudman) writes: [Stuff Deleted] > >GBBS on the other hand provides you with a completely new programming language >(very similar to basic so the transition is not that difficult) that offers >text file based source code and a compiler. No run-time interpretation of >your system segments. This results in a faster system. ACOS (at least version 1.3) is not a compiler. All it does is generate addresses for all the labels, and use those address for branching. (In that aspect it is definately faster than Applesoft), but it is still a interpretator when it comes to actual execution of program code. [Stuff Deleted]
drudman@hpcc01.HP.COM (Drew Rudman) (06/04/91)
>"Time is money." >"I thought you said opium was money." >"Money is money!" >"Then what was time, again?" From Volunteers - great movie. Anyways, back to the subject at hand. No one is claiming that either system is the end-all communications package for the Apple II. Each has strong points as well as weak points. As I see it: GBBS/ACOS/MACOS/METAL Benefits: Text-file based source code for easy modification. You can jump up and down all day long and tell me how great and easy Applesloth is to program in but no one is buying it. Minimum system requirements. GBBS will run an an Apple II+ with two 360K drives - try that with Pro-Line. Networking is available. Call Infinities Edge for information regarding networking segments for GBBS - (415) 820-9401. ProTerm emulation for full Apple IIE and GS character/sound support. I don't know if this is available on Pro-Line, but for anyone who has called UoP or Treasure Island in the Bay Area, CA - command line oriented BBS just will not do. Drawbacks: New language. Questionable whether this is a drawback or not. ACOS is a BASIC derivative with some added (and a few missing) commands. No array support. One of the missing commands. This has been remedied in MACOS and METAL, two extensions to the original ACOS command language. GBBS sucks out of the box. I will never claim that GBBS (this is the actual program segments that a user sees and uses when he calls the BBS) is a robust BBS. The message base is OK, but you seriously need to modify it to make it outstanding. The thing is, ACOS (this is the operating system/language that GBBS runs on top of) makes it very easy to make outstanding modifications. Lousy Support. I'm sorry, but Lance and L&L Productions have gotten a nasty reputation for being incredibly slow when responding to complaints. Cost: When I bought GBBS two years ago (version 1.3j) it cost me $125. I don't know exactly how much the current version is, but I suspect it is not much more. The system requires nothing more (even Prodos, which is included on the distribution diskettes.) PRO-LINE Benefits: (disclaimer - I have not used the system extensively, this list is from the conversation that has occured so far.) Nice out of the box. Pro-Line provides very nice networking capabilities, message bases, and other standard BBS items, with very little modification. Built in networking. Good installed network base. Supports internet feeds right out of the box. Written in Applesoft. Some novice users may only know Applesoft. This may or may not be a benefit (to me, it is really not one.) Excellent support via Morgan Davis. Morgan Davis is a very well respected member of the Apple II community. His products are well made and well supported. Drawbacks: Minimum of a Hard Drived II system to run. Requires 5 megs of storage just for the BBS and its data (not to mention any file xfers you may want to have.) GS necessary to use MD-BASIC for efficient editing of source code. MD-BASIC is a seperate product that converts Applesoft code into a more editable form. Relies on external products (Amperworks, etc.) Apple IIe users must use Applesoft to modify. This (from my point of view as an experienced programmer) is the worst thing about Pro-Line. I listed this in both benefits and drawbacks because depending on the kind of computer user you are, this may be a good or bad thing. To me it is all BAD. Cost: I believe it has been mentioned that Pro-Line could cost as low as $95 and as high as $195. This is just for the BBS package. MD-BASIC (for easy editing) and other add-ons cost more. So, take your pick. They both seem to have good things going for them, as well as bad things you'll have to deal with. [ Call... 9600bps/60meg ][ Drew Rudman ] [ The Charge ][ ] [ Apple ][ IBM ][ Internet: drudman@hpiosa.corp.hp.com ] [ (415) 321-4713 ][ The Charge BBS: Axe Slinger (#1) ]
sysadmin@pnet91.cts.com (Matthew Montano) (06/05/91)
Just like to add several more things to the "ACOS vs. ProLine battle". Several points which are valid to ME as a sysop. ProLine, because of it's design, can support many different terminals. It has terminal emulations for maybe 20 terminals, as well as TTY. The programs are smart, in that if trying to run a program that requires certain emulation features you don't have, it won't let you. ProLine, unlike most GBBS/ACOS systems, doesn't assume the type of terminal emulation. I don't use ProTERM, and a BBS shouldn't expect to use ProTERM. If these heavily modified ACOS boards require ProTERM, what about when I call the BBS from work with my Mac or IBM, or from an Alex terminal (Cdn's will understand). ProLine has the ability and performs admirably at supporting (and amazing) all types of computer users, from Amiga's to PC's. When I ran pro-generic (and running pro-cco now), I can support very easily Apple II users, Mac users, PC users etc... because of the flexible design of the software. As well, all the modifications to ProLine would likely be done with a standard text editor and standard text files containing config information or scripts. pro-generic was heavily modified when I ran it, not because it had to be, but because I had fun doing it... and I rarely modified line's of code, it was all scripts and configuration information. To each their own. But I suggest that all future sysops call and use BOTH systems, and give each system a good work out. I think (and hope) that you find ProLine slightly more to your liking. ProLine, by the way, can be run off an 800k disk. I did it. Matthew --- ventureTech Intelligence - We're trying to make computers easy, SOME HOW! Email: sysadmin@pnet91.cts.com (most mailers won't barf on that..) My comments aren't even worth a disclaimer... And the further I get from the things that I care about... The less I care about how much further away I get - Robert Smith, 1989
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/06/91)
drudman@hpcc01.HP.COM (Drew Rudman) writes: >>"Time is money." >>"I thought you said opium was money." >>"Money is money!" >>"Then what was time, again?" >From Volunteers - great movie. Yeah, I forgod (or would that be forgoed) the attribution since I couldn't think of the characters' names in that dialog. Certainly better than "Joe vs. The Volcano". >Anyways, back to the subject at hand. Yeah, can't be doing too much drift... >No one is claiming that either system >is the end-all communications package for the Apple II. Each has strong >points as well as weak points. As I see it: >GBBS/ACOS/MACOS/METAL >Benefits: >Minimum system requirements. GBBS will run an an Apple II+ with two 360K > drives - try that with Pro-Line. Minor correction, 2 140K drives. 35*16*256/1024=140. >ProTerm emulation for full Apple IIE and GS character/sound support. I don't > know if this is available on Pro-Line, It has some PSE, but it is incomplete. Then again, ACOS/METAL currently doesn't recognize that a ? in PSE mode is an _. This may have changed. >Drawbacks: >No array support. One of the missing commands. This has been remedied in > MACOS and METAL, two extensions to the original ACOS command language. MACOS would be an extension to, METAL an extension OF. If I can just track down where ACOS tokenizes variables, I might be able to add in primitive arrays. >GBBS sucks out of the box. I will never claim that GBBS (this is the actual > program segments that a user sees and uses when he calls the BBS) is a > robust BBS. The message base is OK, but you seriously need to modify it > to make it outstanding. The thing is, ACOS (this is the operating > system/language that GBBS runs on top of) makes it very easy to make > outstanding modifications. True. It would be much better on the programming side if MSG.SEG was split between the mail and bulletin functions, LOGON.SEG was split into logging in routines, loading the user, and the new user application, and it was overall cleaner code. However, its size lends itself to improvements very easily. >Lousy Support. I'm sorry, but Lance and L&L Productions have gotten a > nasty reputation for being incredibly slow when responding to complaints. It seems they want you to do the tracking down bugs to a reproducable form before they will take any action, which is in turn slow. >Cost: >When I bought GBBS two years ago (version 1.3j) it cost me $125. I don't > know exactly how much the current version is, but I suspect it is not much > more. The system requires nothing more (even Prodos, which is included on > the distribution diskettes.) I bought mine used, but I can't remember the price. I know someone interested in selling his copy, unopened, for $40. MACOS isn't sold, just illegally distributed. METAL now lists at $85. That price includes the BBS source for Future Visions. (METAL is the language, and name of the product.) >PRO-LINE >Benefits: (disclaimer - I have not used the system extensively, this list > is from the conversation that has occured so far.) No disagreements there. >Drawbacks: >Minimum of a Hard Drived II system to run. Requires 5 megs of storage just > for the BBS and its data (not to mention any file xfers you may want to > have.) I was also told that file xfers were not ProLine's strong point, as well as "mondo ProTERM Emulation". >Relies on external products (Amperworks, etc.) They are provided, but the programmer will have to learn how to use them, making it more than just AppleSoft you need to know. >Apple IIe users ...and those without the proper GS configuration... > must use Applesoft to modify. This (from my point of view as > an experienced programmer) is the worst thing about Pro-Line. >Cost: >I believe it has been mentioned that Pro-Line could cost as low as $95 and > as high as $195. This is just for the BBS package. MD-BASIC (for easy > editing) and other add-ons cost more. ProLine lists at $195, MD-BASIC at $50. Even if you do wait to get MD-BASIC, you are still paying the same amount, with the suffering of using AppleSoft. My main recommendation to Morgan Davis is to make an 8-bit version of MD-BASIC, if at all possible, not requiring another application to make it work. >So, take your pick. They both seem to have good things going for them, as >well as bad things you'll have to deal with. >[ Call... 9600bps/60meg ][ Drew Rudman ] >[ Apple ][ IBM ][ Internet: drudman@hpiosa.corp.hp.com ] >[ (415) 321-4713 ][ The Charge BBS: Axe Slinger (#1) ] -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
u9050728@cs.uow.edu.au (Shane Kelvin Richards) (06/06/91)
What you pro-proline supporters forget is that Acos is a language, and very very very rarely do you see a bbs running a unmodified gbbs bbs. point being that if you get onto a board which forces you to look at menus all the time, or forces hotkeys on you, or only allows one type of terminal is because of the programmer of the bbs (usually the sysop), NOT gbbs as you people maliciously enjoy suggesting. Thus if the feature don't exist DON'T try to put the blame on "GBBS", but the programmer of the bbs. i have written many bbs's using ACOS for sysops, and those sort of things like different terminal modes, hotkeys, hot menus, I make an option. That it is so easy to do such things makes ACOS/MACOS/METAL infinitely more flexible edew675$^&%$^&frbhje frrerferferffrerEI nFINITFfinitely -- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Shane Richards u9050728@cs.uow.edu.au +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/07/91)
sysadmin@pnet91.cts.com (Matthew Montano) writes: >Just like to add several more things to the "ACOS vs. ProLine battle". Several >points which are valid to ME as a sysop. >ProLine, because of it's design, can support many different terminals. It has >terminal emulations for maybe 20 terminals, as well as TTY. Yes, that is another good point about ProLine. However not all are complete. I use the PSE code ^R extensively to compress the amount of time it takes for message headers to reach my users. I may use a long-duration but inaudible tone command to delay their end for awhile while I send stuff that I can't compress, but needs to be displayed quickly. Some of them are still at 300 or 1200 bps. METAL does have extra emulations, but I can't remember the quantity or names. >ProLine, unlike most GBBS/ACOS >systems, doesn't assume the type of terminal emulation. I don't use ProTERM, >and a BBS shouldn't expect to use ProTERM. I agree. It is the same argument I have with systems that assume you have the capability of displaying IBM graphics characters. Everything should have the capability of going to 7-bit-only ASCII, with no ESC sequences or special-ability control-characters. (Hyphenated to increase readability.) One must please the users, or else they won't call. >If these heavily modified ACOS boards require ProTERM, what about when I call >the BBS from work with my Mac or IBM, or from an Alex terminal (Cdn's will >understand). This is a very good gripe about default emulations. However, more and more systems are going with an emulation detect before logging in, with the capability of redefining your personal emulation. >ProLine has the ability and performs admirably at supporting (and amazing) all >types of computer users, from Amiga's to PC's. TTY does this easily. True, no whistles, just BELs, but it insures compatibility. Most of my code still outputs "vanilla ASCII", with only the occasional trap for alternate emulations. I believe in quality, not quantity. >As well, all the modifications to ProLine would likely be done with a standard >text editor and standard text files containing config information or scripts. >pro-generic was heavily modified when I ran it, not because it had to be, but >because I had fun doing it... and I rarely modified line's of code, it was all >scripts and configuration information. So basically you weren't doing direct modification, but instead adding things. I use the term to refer to changes made to the core program. >To each their own. But I suggest that all future sysops call and use BOTH >systems, and give each system a good work out. I think (and hope) that you >find ProLine slightly more to your liking. However let them know exactly what is required. >ProLine, by the way, can be run off an 800k disk. I did it. LET ME KNOW HOW YOU DID IT! I'm trying to get it to run off 2 800K disks right now. I'm currently trying to trace down access to each directory to map them onto other drives. >Matthew >Email: sysadmin@pnet91.cts.com (most mailers won't barf on that..) -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
gtolar@xcluud.sccsi.com (Glynne Tolar) (06/07/91)
sysadmin@pnet91.cts.com (Matthew Montano) writes: > If these heavily modified ACOS boards require ProTERM, what about when I call > the BBS from work with my Mac or IBM, or from an Alex terminal (Cdn's will > understand). > I often ask myself that when I call PC boards with all the ANSI "graphics" littered around. :) And I don't dare to get into this my BBS software is better then yours discussion. <larger grin> ---- You can paint it all kinds of pretty colors and have speakers give it glowing reviews, but abortion is still baby killing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ gtolar@xcluud.sccsi.com <-or-> uunet!nuchat!xcluud!gtolar I didn't write the organization or path. I just use it.