szatezal@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Shane M Zatezalo) (06/03/91)
In Article <1991Jun2.151552.9445@clark.edu> appolo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: > YOU GET ALL THE PROLINE UPDATES OVER THE PHONE LINES, VIA MODEMS, FOR >ABSOLUTELY NO MONEY EXECPT WHAT THE PHONE CALL COSTS YOU! Well tell us something we /don't/ know. I'm getting REALLY sick of this Proline is *IT* deal. PROLINE IS *NOT* god. For YEARS I had never even heard of Proline. When I first called a proline system, I was NOT impressed. Why? Because: 1) The interface is /not/ that user friendly. 2) If you don't know unix, you get stuck using PLUSH. That sucks. Most people (not me) don't know unix, and get stuck using it. 3) No Protocols. Ok, Proline has since received some, and will receive others in the future, I'll admit it. 4) The file transfering system on standard Proline boards stinks. Maybe the author of Supertac should be contacted about this! :) Supertac for Acos was awesome.... and where it didn't fit a need, most sysops used some its code/ideas/protocols for their own file transfer segs. Look at Exodus.... its GOT to be the best filetransfering system yet. 5) Proline's networking.... isn't unusual. The ONLY aspect of it that amazed me was usenet feed grabbing. I don't know of an Acos based system that can do it. I have seen Macos boards do it. Metal can too. 6) Metal & Proline get free-updates. 7) Acos & Metal boards ARE user friendly. Each board is different in some way than another. Some have total Proterm Special Effects/Animation, some have ANSI emulation. Most are customized. 8) When I helped a sysop write things for Proline, it was a HASSLE. I thanked god when the sysop purchased MD-BASIC. Changing your Proline system w/o MD-BASIC is hell. In Article <1991Jun2.214618.13193@clark.edu> geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Chris Moylan) writes: |It is NOT based on AppleSoft Basic entirely. It has AmperWorks and |ModemWorks to give it commands AppleSoft could NEVER have otherwise. As |for ACOS, what the HELL is it? If I bought a BBS, I'd buy one based on a |language I already know. I also think the GBBS compiler is no better than Do you know BASIC? Then you practically know Acos. So I take it that you already knew Proline's ways of doing things, and had to learn nothing... and you didn't have to learn &**** commands either. NOT. |BTW - I know a few BBS sysops who have dropped GBBS for ProLine, don't |underestimate AppleSoft basic's flexbility. Have you ever written a ProLine |application? I have. Applesoft basic's flexibility? Ha... that's like saying a cement block is flexible!! I think some of you who have used Proline, but have not had the "Acos Experience" should really keep quiet. When I first started reading this feed, a LOT of the posters swore that Proline was the only Apple II bbs program out. Wake up and smell the coffee. Acos & Metal are MUCH easier to modify, and they ARE THE MOST USED BBS PROGRAMS. Period. Proline has no such hold on the Apple II bbs world, and never will. There are EASILY 3 or 4 times as many Acos/Macos boards out there than Proline. It is very much easier to start a new Acos/Metal board than it is Proline. Think not? TRY IT. >Ok...to whoever first asked for a good BBS...as the President says: >"GBBS.......BAD, it's BAD...ProLine...GOOD...seven points of light..." How about Acos...... Bugs, Proline... slow and hard to Modify, Metal..... everything a Acos/Macos/Proline sysop ever wanted. >==The Hindu Love Gods BBS - - - - Bloomfield Hills, MI - - - - 313/644-0481=== >ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | >UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | >============================================================================== |Chris Moylan | ProLine: geniusman@pro-hindugods |CoSysop: Hindu Love Gods BBS | Internet: geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com |313/644-0481 | UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman |300-9600 bps, v.32/v.42/v.42bis | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman@nosc.mil Shane szatezal@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu -or- al460@cleveland.freenet.edu
geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Chris Moylan) (06/04/91)
Sorry for not letting you, the Apple // BBS god "wrap up" the Apple // BBS discussion, but I just thought I'd say something: >|It is NOT based on AppleSoft Basic entirely. It has AmperWorks and >|ModemWorks to give it commands AppleSoft could NEVER have otherwise. As >|for ACOS, what the HELL is it? If I bought a BBS, I'd buy one based on a >|language I already know. I also think the GBBS compiler is no better than > Do you know BASIC? Then you practically know Acos. > So I take it that you already knew Proline's ways of doing things, and had > to learn nothing... and you didn't have to learn &**** commands either. NOT. I hate to break it to you, but the & commands are HARDLY difficult to learn. Let's see...& COPY...that would probably copy a file, ya think? Or how about & WHEN NOT ONLINE GOTO #....that would probably redirect the program's flow when the system goes off line, or is that one tough to understand, too? > Applesoft basic's flexibility? Ha... that's like saying a cement block > is flexible!! Maybe you never DID learn those &**** commands!! >I think some of you who have used Proline, but have not had the "Acos >Experience" should really keep quiet. When I first started reading this >feed, a LOT of the posters swore that Proline was the only Apple II bbs >program out. Wake up and smell the coffee. Acos & Metal are MUCH easier >to modify, and they ARE THE MOST USED BBS PROGRAMS. Period. Proline has no >such hold on the Apple II bbs world, and never will. >There are EASILY 3 or 4 times as many Acos/Macos boards out there than Proline. >It is very much easier to start a new Acos/Metal board than it is Proline. >Think not? TRY IT. I'm sorry, let us count the networked GBBS boards...hmm..only 30, now let's count ProLine's sites....WOW! 90 sites, I think ProLine has 3 times more networked sites, and who gives a shit about GBBS pirate software boards?? I could do that with ProTERM Unattended mode! As for MACOS, Metal, and whatever else you referred to, I don't see any of those around! >>Ok...to whoever first asked for a good BBS...as the President says: >>"GBBS.......BAD, it's BAD...ProLine...GOOD...seven points of light..." >How about Acos...... Bugs, > Proline... slow and hard to Modify, > Metal..... everything a Acos/Macos/Proline sysop ever wanted. PROLINE SLOW??? The board I user regularly is VERY fast and easy to modify. You should read some GBBS messages sometime, THEY are slow! >==The Hindu Love Gods BBS - - - - Bloomfield Hills, MI - - - - 313/644-0481=== >ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | >UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | >============================================================================== > Shane szatezal@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu -or- al460@cleveland.freenet.edu Chris Moylan | ProLine: geniusman@pro-hindugods CoSysop: Hindu Love Gods BBS | Internet: geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com 313/644-0481 | UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman 300-9600 bps, v.32/v.42/v.42bis | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman@nosc.mil
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) (06/05/91)
In-Reply-To: message from szatezal@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu >In Article <1991Jun2.151552.9445@clark.edu> appolo@pro-hindugods.cts.com >(Amrit Chauhan) writes: >>szatezal@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu writes: > YOU GET ALL THE PROLINE UPDATES OVER THE PHONE LINES, VIA MODEMS, FOR >ABSOLUTELY NO MONEY EXECPT WHAT THE PHONE CALL COSTS YOU! >>Well tell us something we /don't/ know. >>I'm getting REALLY sick of this Proline is *IT* deal. PROLINE IS *NOT* god. >>For YEARS I had never even heard of Proline. When I first called >>a proline system, I was NOT impressed. Why? For many years, I hadn't heard of GBBS. I've called a few, and I'm not overwhelmed by it. It's also NOT GOD. I'm not extremely impressed by it either. I have my ProLine board set up to do almost anything now. I've received tons of MOD's from the net, and I made my OWN WITHOUT MD-BASIC. I can handle AppleSoft...sure it's EASIER with MD-BASIC, but what did you do when you didn't have MD-BASIC? AppleSoft isn't so bad that you can't even program in it. I don't particularly like AppleSoft, but I can still program in it. I have successfully done so as well. If you don't have MD-BASIC, then so what...make due with AppleSoft until you can get it. How many programs are you going to try to write in AppleSoft anyway? If you're serious about rewriting ProLine (and it never really needed any programming), then go get yourself a GS and MD-BASIC. If you want to make a few MOD's, then just use AppleSoft. >>Because: >>1) The interface is /not/ that user friendly. I like the interface and PLUSH is hardly that bad. It's just a menu system. What the hell does GBBS use?! What's wrong with PLUSH? Is it slow? I don't think so! What are you talking about...PLUSH is just fine. You can NOW, because of a new update, set up PLUSH to do EVERY command in the unix shell. Do you need to...NO...do you want to...well if you really want, you can. >>2) If you don't know unix, you get stuck using PLUSH. That sucks. Most >>people (not me) don't know unix, and get stuck using it. What sucks about PLUSH? >>3) No Protocols. Ok, Proline has since received some, and will receive >> others in the future, I'll admit it. Damn straight! Z-MODEM coming out soon. >>4) The file transfering system on standard Proline boards stinks. Maybe >> the author of Supertac should be contacted about this! :) It was never built around a file transfer system. It was written as a conference system. The transfer system it uses is at the very least unique, and it could be improved. It does the job, and you can get what you want from it. I don't see what's SO wrong with it. GBBS's is better...ok... I'll give you that. >>5) Proline's networking.... isn't unusual. The ONLY aspect of it that amazed >> me was usenet feed grabbing. I don't know of an Acos based system that >> can do it. I have seen Macos boards do it. Metal can too. Ok..wait a minute...how many messages can you store on a GBBS system that runs on a couple of 3.5 disks? ONE..MAYBE? GBBS's message base really SUCKS...It may have a good file section, but ProLine has a half-way decent one too. ProLine has an EXCELLENT message base...GBBS doesn't even have a competitive one. IT REALLY SUCKS for messages. >>6) Metal & Proline get free-updates. OK...that's true. >>7) Acos & Metal boards ARE user friendly. Each board is different in some >> way than another. Some have total Proterm Special Effects/Animation, >> some have ANSI emulation. Most are customized. Like all the ProLine boards are THE SAME! Get real. ProLine isn't a DO-IT-UP and use as much special effects and animation that may be neat the first time you see them, but hell, do you have users that call everyday and just stare at animation sequences? If you do, you've got some sad, and lonely users. ProLine has MANY, MANY on-line games that do, however, use "special effects" but no color. Color slows down the speed of EVERYTHING on the modem, and if you try and get a page of color in ANSI, how long does it take to see it at 2400? Surely not as fast as simple text. Why do you complicate things even more with graphics over a modem. Let's face it, but modems don't have good rates w/ graphics. Can GBBS do something useful with special effects?...like maybe a full screen text editor? You can use arrow keys and everything with the "vedit" module. Can GBBS do that? I didn't think so...what a waste of ANSI capabilities. >>8) When I helped a sysop write things for Proline, it was a HASSLE. I >>thanked god when the sysop purchased MD-BASIC. Changing your Proline >>system w/o >> MD-BASIC is hell. Are you trying to re-write ProLine? I use AppleSoft because I can't afford MD-BASIC, and I've already made myself a MOD that was effective and I think it took me about 30 mins. Geee...that's real hard. |It is NOT based on AppleSoft Basic entirely. It has AmperWorks and |ModemWorks to give it commands AppleSoft could NEVER have otherwise. As |for ACOS, what the HELL is it? If I bought a BBS, I'd buy one based on a |language I already know. I also think the GBBS compiler is no better than >> >> Do you know BASIC? Then you practically know Acos. >> So I take it that you already knew Proline's ways of doing things, and had >> to learn nothing... and you didn't have to learn &**** commands either. >>NOT. "NOT"...grow up...It took me about 10 mins to figure out all the variable ProLine uses, and the ampersand comands...I don't even have a manual...i did just fine. With anything you have to take a little time to get used to it...but when you do, you know how it works. Like you just can load up GBBS and start programming without looking at ANYTHING first, right...ok..here's one for you...NOT. |BTW - I know a few BBS sysops who have dropped GBBS for ProLine, don't |underestimate AppleSoft basic's flexbility. Have you ever written a ProLine |application? I have. >> Applesoft basic's flexibility? Ha... that's like saying a cement block >> is flexible!! I've gotten a cement block to bend...guess I'm pretty strong...maybe strong willed is more the word. >>There are EASILY 3 or 4 times as many Acos/Macos boards out there than >>Proline. >>It is very much easier to start a new Acos/Metal board than it is Proline. >>Think not? TRY IT. It took me about 1 week to totally PERFECT..not set up...but PERFECT and CUSTOMISE my ProLine...that's long? How many GBBS boards are there out there, and how many are legal GBBS boards? ProLine boards are 1) all networked together, and 2) have about 4 to 5 times as many network bridges than GBBS. If you're trying to say it's EASIER to start an ACOS board... try this bud...it takes at least the same amount of time unless you just unpack and go with it like it came out of the box without even trying to customize it. Both GBBS and ProLine are "easy" to start...it's what it can do after that that counts. Amrit ==The Hindu Love Gods BBS - - - - Bloomfield Hills, MI - - - - 313/644-0481=== ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | ==============================================================================
drudman@hpcc01.HP.COM (Drew Rudman) (06/06/91)
>"NOT"...grow up...It took me about 10 mins to figure out all the variable >ProLine uses, and the ampersand comands...I don't even have a manual...i did ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >just fine. With anything you have to take a little time to get used to >it...but when you do, you know how it works. Like you just can load up GBBS >and start programming without looking at ANYTHING first, right...ok..here's >one for you...NOT. >Amrit >==The Hindu Love Gods BBS - - - - Bloomfield Hills, MI - - - - 313/644-0481=== >ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | >UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | >============================================================================== Lets talk pirate boards, bonehead! Just where did you get your copy of Pro-Line? I'm sure Morgan Davis would love to see this feed. And who says a BBS has to be networked to be a GOOD bbs? If I want feeds from all over the country, I'll come here. What if I want local stuff? What if I want a place to get Shareware and Freeware, or the latest cool text-file? I think GBBS provides better facilities for these things. Networked BBSs get to be a nightmare with an overwhelming amount of messages, even if you subscribed to one group. I like a board that recieves maybe a total of 40 messages a day, not 400. At 40 a day I can get by by calling every couple of days, rather than every day religiously. Every pro-line board I call is structured the same. It is very boring. I like to call unique places with unique features. ACOS based systems offer this variety. If Pro-Line people attempt to tweak the system to give it a little flair (and I'm not talking about changing a menu layout), they get screwed on updates. No such restrictions with ACOS, since it is the operating system that gets enhanced and usually doesn't conflict with changes you made. Face it, the systems offer different things to different people. Neither is completely better than the other - so don't try to convince peoiple that they are. [ Call... 9600bps/60meg ][ Drew Rudman ] [ The Charge ][ ] [ Apple ][ IBM ][ Internet: drudman@hpiosa.corp.hp.com ] [ (415) 321-4713 ][ The Charge BBS: Axe Slinger (#1) ]
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/07/91)
geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Chris Moylan) writes: >@ () writes: >>@ () writes: >>>It is NOT based on AppleSoft Basic entirely. It has AmperWorks and >>>ModemWorks to give it commands AppleSoft could NEVER have otherwise. As >>>for ACOS, what the HELL is it? If I bought a BBS, I'd buy one based on a >>>language I already know. >>Do you know BASIC? Then you practically know Acos. >>So I take it that you already knew Proline's ways of doing things, and had >>to learn nothing... and you didn't have to learn &**** commands either. NOT. >I hate to break it to you, but the & commands are HARDLY difficult to learn. >Let's see...& COPY...that would probably copy a file, ya think? Or how >about & WHEN NOT ONLINE GOTO #....that would probably redirect the program's >flow when the system goes off line, or is that one tough to understand, too? You are talking from the wrong perspective. One would not know instinctively that & COPY existed, or & WHEN NOT ONLINE GOTO existed. Why not & ON NOCAR GOTO ? In fact, I'd prefer not even having the & in there. >>Acos & Metal are MUCH easier >>to modify, and they ARE THE MOST USED BBS PROGRAMS. Period. Proline has no >>such hold on the Apple II bbs world, and never will. >>There are EASILY 3 or 4 times as many Acos/Macos boards out there than >>Proline. It is very much easier to start a new Acos/Metal board than it is >>Proline. Think not? TRY IT. >I'm sorry, let us count the networked GBBS boards... Invalid argument already. Did he say networked? Networking is not a requirement to run a BBS. >who gives a shit about GBBS pirate software boards?? Do you mean GBBS boards for pirate software or pirated GBBS boards? Either way, we are not interested in that. >I could do that with ProTERM Unattended mode! Sounds like the first one. >As for MACOS, Metal, and >whatever else you referred to, I don't see any of those around! MACOS systems often pretend to be ACOS systems, since they don't want to lose access to L&L Support. They are also not as common. >>How about Acos...... Bugs, >> Proline... slow and hard to Modify, >> Metal..... everything a Acos/Macos/Proline sysop ever wanted. >PROLINE SLOW??? The board I user regularly is VERY fast and easy to modify. >You should read some GBBS messages sometime, THEY are slow! Compare system configurations. Accellerators, CPU, whether or not the ProLine system was compiled after being translated to BASIC. (That is another plus for ProLine, but then you are paying more for the BASIC->ML compiler.) >Chris Moylan | ProLine: geniusman@pro-hindugods >CoSysop: Hindu Love Gods BBS | Internet: geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com >313/644-0481 | UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman >300-9600 bps, v.32/v.42/v.42bis | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman@nosc.mil That must be one of the ProLine systems that uses handles. The software doesn't recommend it. That reminds me. One thing I dislike about the Future Visions code (the code given with the METAL language) is that it keeps calling the user by their real name. I've already changed that. You don't want anyone looking over your shoulder to equate your real name with your handle. You might not be on a real-name basis. -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/07/91)
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >szatezal@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu writes: All other attributions were garbled up by Amrit. I can't make any sense of them. >>I'm getting REALLY sick of this Proline is *IT* deal. PROLINE IS *NOT* god. >>For YEARS I had never even heard of Proline. When I first called >>a proline system, I was NOT impressed. Why? >For many years, I hadn't heard of GBBS. I've called a few, and I'm not >overwhelmed by it. It's also NOT GOD. I'm not extremely impressed by it >either. So we have come to the law of opinions. What one runs is what is best for that person. No-one is suggesting anyone should change. We're just appraising the differences between the systems, so that a person so informed would be able to make the choice that is right for them when buying a new system. However AppleSoft becomes very cumbersome and difficult to navigate as the program's size increases. Numbers become numbers, instead of pointers to important routines. >I made my OWN [MODs] WITHOUT MD-BASIC. I >can handle AppleSoft...sure it's EASIER with MD-BASIC, but what did you do >when you didn't have MD-BASIC? I wrote smaller programs, within the limits of what would be understandable in the future when I've been off the program for a long time, unless I know I won't be needing to edit it again. Apparently this is what was assumed with ProLine: that you won't be needing to edit it. >AppleSoft isn't so bad that you can't even >program in it. I don't particularly like AppleSoft, but I can still program >in it. So can I. I often use it to code up an important routine, or an application I need at the time. I don't know how many times I've coded a pixel-wise HGR editor from scratch. >I have successfully done so as well. If you don't have MD-BASIC, >then so what...make due with AppleSoft until you can get it. Already have it. However it does add to the cost. A time delay doesn't decrease the cost. >How many >programs are you going to try to write in AppleSoft anyway? If you're >serious about rewriting ProLine (and it never really needed any programming), >then go get yourself a GS and MD-BASIC. I have both. I still lack the needed hardware to run it. No hard drive. One 800K drive. Insufficient RAM to configure an 800K RAMdisk and still boot GS/OS anymore. I don't have APW or ORCA/M, which although listed as optional, it is the only option shown in the manual. >If you want to make a few MOD's, >then just use AppleSoft. MODs, or additions? There is a difference. >>Because: >>3) No Protocols. Ok, Proline has since received some, and will receive >> others in the future, I'll admit it. >Damn straight! Z-MODEM coming out soon. For what cost? I'm surprised it made it this far without Ymodem Batch. >>5) Proline's networking.... isn't unusual. The ONLY aspect of it that amazed >> me was usenet feed grabbing. I don't know of an Acos based system that >> can do it. I have seen Macos boards do it. Metal can too. >Ok..wait a minute...how many messages can you store on a GBBS system that >runs on a couple of 3.5 disks? ONE..MAYBE? I'm configured on 2 800K disks. 9 message areas, 8 at 64 messages, 1 at 128. >GBBS's message base really >SUCKS... > ProLine has an EXCELLENT message base...GBBS doesn't even have a >competitive one. IT REALLY SUCKS for messages. Give some reasons. >>6) Metal & Proline get free-updates. >OK...that's true. Last time I checked, the upgrade to ACOS v2.11 was free. I haven't received a bill yet. >>7) Acos & Metal boards ARE user friendly. Each board is different in some >> way than another. Some have total Proterm Special Effects/Animation, >> some have ANSI emulation. Most are customized. Myself, animation isn't all that great. Perhaps a special "Movie Theatre" for them, for those who want it, but animation doesn't really belong in message headers, menus, and switching between modes. Too high of a noise/signal ratio. Games are another place where they would be acceptable. >Like all the ProLine boards are THE SAME! Get real. ProLine isn't a >DO-IT-UP and use as much special effects and animation that may be neat the >first time you see them, but hell, do you have users that call everyday and >just stare at animation sequences? If you do, you've got some sad, and >lonely users. You could try being less insulting. Some systems, as I stated calmly, do overdo animation. I'm not into pull-down-menus that have to be sent remotely to me. Better to have special software. >ProLine has MANY, MANY on-line games that do, however, use >"special effects" but no color. Color slows down the speed of EVERYTHING on >the modem, and if you try and get a page of color in ANSI, how long does it >take to see it at 2400? Surely not as fast as simple text. Sure could slow things down, if you send a color command with every character. Reminds me of a board with CCG emulation. When it went into rainbow mode, it was like they slammed on the brakes. Their rainbow mode sends a color command with each character, cycling through the rainbow. This was on an AABBS, running on a C=128 I think. >Why do you >complicate things even more with graphics over a modem. Let's face it, ... >modems don't have good rates w/ graphics. Can GBBS do something useful with >special effects?...like maybe a full screen text editor? Definitely. Such a thing already exists. However I don't use it. I have other modifications that are more important to me right now. >You can use arrow >keys and everything with the "vedit" module. Can GBBS do that? I didn't >think so...what a waste of ANSI capabilities. The editor, BTW, is an ACOS ability, used by GBBS. The full-screen editor is a separate BIN file, and I believe is only for PSE users. METAL has one built into the language. >>8) When I helped a sysop write things for Proline, it was a HASSLE. I >>thanked god when the sysop purchased MD-BASIC. Changing your Proline >>system w/o MD-BASIC is hell. >Are you trying to re-write ProLine? It often feels that way. This shows our differing definitions of the term "MOD". >It took me about 10 mins to figure out all the variable >ProLine uses, and the ampersand comands...I don't even have a manual...i did >just fine. What happened to your manual? I was able to learn ACOS without opening my manual. When I needed detailed information, that was when I used the manual, like exactly how the USERS file is setup, what information is available in the DATA files, etc. >With anything you have to take a little time to get used to >it...but when you do, you know how it works. Like you just can load up GBBS >and start programming without looking at ANYTHING first, right...ok..here's >one for you...NOT. With some perusing of the source files, you can figure out what does what pretty easily. Plus you have a complete source listing available in hard copy in the back of the manual. Very handy when you are making mods, and you think, "Well, how did _they_ do it?" Didn't cost me ribbon wear and paper to get that information. >>Applesoft basic's flexibility? Ha... that's like saying a cement block >>is flexible!! >I've gotten a cement block to bend...guess I'm pretty strong...maybe strong >willed is more the word. Bend? More like break, don't you think? >>There are EASILY 3 or 4 times as many Acos/Macos boards out there than >>Proline. >>It is very much easier to start a new Acos/Metal board than it is Proline. >>Think not? TRY IT. Well, I had some trouble finding out how to get METAL to install. Turns out I missed some important doc files that I needed to read first. It could use an automated config program like ACOS has. >How many GBBS boards are there out >there, and how many are legal GBBS boards? You are getting very insulting with this constant mentioning of the word "legal". How would you like it if people started asking you how many ILLEGAL ProLine boards are out there? >ProLine boards are 1) all >networked together, If I get mine setup, I don't plan on being part of the network. Why should I? I doubt I'm the only ProLine owner who feels this way. I still don't like all the features I'll have to leave behind. >and 2) have about 4 to 5 times as many network bridges >than GBBS. Networking is not the sole reason to run a BBS. If every BBS was networked, you'd effectively have only one BBS. To borrow an abbrev. from rec.arts.startrek, IDIC. Check their FAQ for a definition. >Both GBBS and ProLine are "easy" to start...it's what it can do after >that that counts. Yes. Modifications are easier with ACOS than with AppleSoft. One can make mods in the easier language online, while to do so for ProLine, you'll have to run MD-BASIC, and thus go offline. I've tried remote AppleSoft coding. Not something I want to do again. >Amrit >ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | >UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) (06/08/91)
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Greg ????) writes: >apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >>szatezal@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu writes: >All other attributions were garbled up by Amrit. I can't make any sense >of them. Sorry. I am working on them. This look ok? I'm not used to making these many atributions. I think I got the hang of it now. >>>I'm getting REALLY sick of this Proline is *IT* deal. PROLINE IS *NOT* god. >>>For YEARS I had never even heard of Proline. When I first called >>>a proline system, I was NOT impressed. Why? >>For many years, I hadn't heard of GBBS. I've called a few, and I'm not >>overwhelmed by it. It's also NOT GOD. I'm not extremely impressed by it >>either. >So we have come to the law of opinions. What one runs is what is best for >that person. No-one is suggesting anyone should change. We're just >appraising the differences between the systems, so that a person so >informed would be able to make the choice that is right for them when >buying a new system. I think that it's pretty inevitable that people will take things to heart here. Yeah, we have our opinions, but it's human nature to REALLY stick by them and a little opinion like that doesn't hurt. We all know that we're only defending aspects of each system. A little interjecting opinion is ok. >However AppleSoft becomes very cumbersome and difficult to navigate as the >program's size increases. Numbers become numbers, instead of pointers to >important routines. AppleSoft is not the BEST programming module on the market. It's got its difficult points, but it doesn't have ANY bugs. ACOS does have bugs. That's a bit of a setback for it. Yes, ACOS makes adding MOD's easy and fixing programs much easier than in AppleSoft BASIC. If ACOS gets out its bugs (like in future updates) it will be a very capable program editor. However, although MD-BASIC can be run only on an Apple //gs, let's not forget how powerful it is. If, in fact, you have an Apple //gs, and you want to seriously rework ProLine, then buying MD-BASIC would not be a horrible idea. You don't have to use for ProLine ONLY mods...there are those that buy it for their own programming needs. Have we done any comparisons between MD-BASIC and ACOS yet? Put aside the fact that it can only be run on an Apple //gs, and let's look at both program editors. We're all aware that it can only run on an Apple //gs. That's unfortunate, but all the same, a reality. One other thing. NO program in ProLine needs to be rewritten. If you wanted to write your own additions to ProLine, ok. If you wanted to add a little MOD to this little program, then that's great too. But no one ever, EVER has rewritten a program from scratch. There's no need to. Just keep that in mind, and the fact that the option still exists to edit programs if you want. >>Already have it. However it does add to the cost. A time delay doesn't >>decrease the cost. Sorry...lost the bit I wrote. You were talking about MD-BASIC. It doesn't have to add to the cost of ProLine. MD-BASIC is not a ProLine only program editor. You can buy it for other programming needs as well. >>If you want to make a few MOD's, >>then just use AppleSoft. >MODs, or additions? There is a difference. Both. >>>Because: >>>3) No Protocols. Ok, Proline has since received some, and will receive >>> others in the future, I'll admit it. >>Damn straight! Z-MODEM coming out soon. >For what cost? I'm surprised it made it this far without Ymodem Batch. In the update, it's free. I don't know exactly how much it will drive up the cost of the original program, but we can't speculate as to how much, if at all (although highly probably) it will drive up the price. That's simply in the future. And, ProLine was never meant to be a file x-fer based board. It has an OK file x-fer module right now, and I'm looking into another one that is avilable for a bit of money. No, it's not driving the cost of ProLine up...it's $30 from someone on the net and I'm getting it because I want to set up TWO separate data x-fer sections. I can do it with the regular data library I have already, but I have some money and I would like to see this new module. >>GBBS's message base really >>SUCKS... >> ProLine has an EXCELLENT message base...GBBS doesn't even have a >>competitive one. IT REALLY SUCKS for messages. >Give some reasons. Ok..I'm being a bit obnoxious here. Sorry. 1) ProLine has GREAT networking capabilities (regardless of if you WANT them or not). 2) Both GBBS and ProLine can have message bases in separate partitions. 3) ProLine message bases can also be put into an 800K disk. 4) GBBS has bugs in the message base, to my understanding. >>Like all the ProLine boards are THE SAME! Get real. ProLine isn't a >>DO-IT-UP and use as much special effects and animation that may be neat the >>first time you see them, but hell, do you have users that call everyday and >>just stare at animation sequences? If you do, you've got some sad, and >>lonely users. >You could try being less insulting. Some systems, as I stated calmly, do >overdo animation. I'm not into pull-down-menus that have to be sent >remotely to me. Better to have special software. A little insulting, but not THAT bad. I, PERSONALLY, don't like ANSI, or animation unless I'm playing an on-line game. Then, I'm prepared for the slow screen updates, and I don't mind because if the game is good, I'm having fun. As far as message bases go, I agree that graphics don't belong there. Games, as you stated, are a GREAT place for color graphics. ProLine does NOT have this option. >>Why do you >>complicate things even more with graphics over a modem. Let's face it, ... >>modems don't have good rates w/ graphics. Can GBBS do something useful >>with special effects?...like maybe a full screen text editor? >Definitely. Such a thing already exists. However I don't use it. I have >other modifications that are more important to me right now. The full-screen text editor available on ProLine is a GREAT option. It makes things easier to edit, and I'm using it right now to add this message. It has it's SMALL downturns but it works well. I like it. >>It took me about 10 mins to figure out all the variable >>ProLine uses, and the ampersand comands...I don't even have a manual...i did >>just fine. >What happened to your manual? For the Ampersand commands...I don't have the manual. >>>There are EASILY 3 or 4 times as many Acos/Macos boards out there than >>>Proline. >>How many GBBS boards are there out >>there, and how many are legal GBBS boards? >You are getting very insulting with this constant mentioning of the word >"legal". How would you like it if people started asking you how many >ILLEGAL ProLine boards are out there? Well, look...it's a cheap shot, but hey this is America. (don't take that too seriously either). :) >>and 2) have about 4 to 5 times as many network bridges >>than GBBS. >Networking is not the sole reason to run a BBS. If every BBS was >networked, you'd effectively have only one BBS. To borrow an abbrev. from >rec.arts.startrek, IDIC. Check their FAQ for a definition. Fine. We understand that networking is not the only reason to run a BBS. But, like you said, we're only offering comparisions between the two systems. ProLine has a better networking system than GBBS and just because you don't want to network doesn't invalidate that point. If you want to network, then ProLine is better than GBBS in this aspect. >Yes. Modifications are easier with ACOS than with AppleSoft. One can >make mods in the easier language online, while to do so for ProLine, >you'll have to run MD-BASIC, and thus go offline. I've tried remote >AppleSoft coding. Not something I want to do again. Let's not totally exluce MD-BASIC. I want to run a few points on MD-BASIC with no mention of the fact that it can be run on an Apple //gs only. That has been well asserted. Now, what can ACOS do that MD-BASIC can't and vise-versa? >Amrit >ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | >UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | >>-- >>/// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there >>are >> | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with >>governing >> \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to >>the >> greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to >>them." God...it's tough to include your signature :) How are the attributes this time? I think I got it. Amrit ==The Hindu Love Gods BBS - - - - Bloomfield Hills, MI - - - - 313/644-0481=== ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | | :) :-) 8-) -:) :-() :-{ :-( {:-( }-:O *-:) Got anymore? | | ==============================================================================
geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Chris Moylan) (06/09/91)
In-Reply-To: message from greg@hoss.unl.edu About handles.... Yes, the generic ProLine adduser text file recommends against using handles, when pro-hindugods was first set up it was not to be a networked BBS, so handles were permissable. At that time I, too, thought handles were "cool" so I made myself one. (not seriously thinking I was a genius) Now, if I could do it again I would probably call myself chris@pro-hindugods, but geniusman is all right for now. About system configurations... The board I was referring to ran on a stock GS with a Vulcan 40mg HD, and a CMS 40mg HD. No accelerator, and the messages are on the CMS. About ACOS and MACOS... There are two GBBS boards in the 313 area. I have not called either one yet, as they are zone calls from here. About pirate GBBS boards... I meant both GBBS illegal copies and GBBS's that distribute illegal software. About networking... A non-networked BBS would nearly defeat the purpose of having message base emphasis, however then these un-networked systems would have better file bases. This "battle" that has been going on should be between NETWORKED BBS's because no one has said ProLine is the best file bbs, but it has been said many time, and I agree, that ProLine has the best message base available for an Apple // today. An remember, we are comparing NETWORKED BBS's here, as they are the ones we use. Chris Chris Moylan | ProLine: geniusman@pro-hindugods CoSysop: Hindu Love Gods BBS | Internet: geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com 313/644-0481 | UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman 300-9600 bps, v.32/v.42/v.42bis | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman@nosc.mil
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Life...) (06/09/91)
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >greg@hoss.unl.edu (Greg ????) writes: >>apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >>So we have come to the law of opinions. What one runs is what is best for >>that person. No-one is suggesting anyone should change. We're just >>appraising the differences between the systems, so that a person so >>informed would be able to make the choice that is right for them when >>buying a new system. >I think that it's pretty inevitable that people will take things to heart >here. Yeah, we have our opinions, but it's human nature to REALLY stick by >them and a little opinion like that doesn't hurt. We all know that we're >only defending aspects of each system. A little interjecting opinion is ok. >>However AppleSoft becomes very cumbersome and difficult to navigate as the >>program's size increases. Numbers become numbers, instead of pointers to >>important routines. >AppleSoft is not the BEST programming module on the market. It's got its >difficult points, but it doesn't have ANY bugs. I must say here that even Apple has admitted that there are some bugs in AppleSoft. One of them I believe is the handling of the ON NOCAR GOTO and RESUME commands. They are documented. I believe they are repeated for compatibility reasons. >ACOS does have bugs. That's >a bit of a setback for it. Yes, ACOS makes adding MOD's easy and fixing >programs much easier than in AppleSoft BASIC. If ACOS gets out its bugs >(like in future updates) it will be a very capable program editor. Every large program has its bugs. It is just whether or not you can find them. Some bugs are completely dormant, because due to changes in the code they are no-longer in the instruction chain. Arcade games sometimes have bugs, simply because the programmer couldn't get to the levels where the bugs manifest themselves. Too bad Lance needs the remote sysop to track down a bug so that it is reproducable before he'll try to fix it. He won't bother trying to duplicate the system on another. >However, >although MD-BASIC can be run only on an Apple //gs, let's not forget how >powerful it is. If, in fact, you have an Apple //gs, and you want to >seriously rework ProLine, then buying MD-BASIC would not be a horrible idea. >You don't have to use for ProLine ONLY mods...there are those that buy it for >their own programming needs. Yes. From what I've been able to get out of the manual, it is a rather good programming language. As it is now, I might as well have a //e, since I don't have a good setup to look at the language as it runs. >Have we done any comparisons between MD-BASIC >and ACOS yet? Put aside the fact that it can only be run on an Apple //gs, >and let's look at both program editors. We're all aware that it can only run >on an Apple //gs. That's unfortunate, but all the same, a reality. Which is why I recommend to Morgan to work on a ProDOS 8 version of MD-BASIC. Why should the IIgs users have all the fun? :-) >One other thing. NO program in ProLine needs to be rewritten. Unfortunately I find the need to get it to run under 2 800K volumes (one /RAM5). That involves a rewrite of some routines. >If you wanted >to write your own additions to ProLine, ok. If you wanted to add a little >MOD to this little program, then that's great too. But no one ever, EVER has >rewritten a program from scratch. There's no need to. Certainly not. My system isn't a complete rewrite of GBBS "Pro". It is a large amount of modifications and enhancements. However through the course of time the amount of unedited GBBS "Pro" code has reduced. It is possible that eventually it could vanish. This does take time. >>Already have [MD-BASIC]. However it does add to the cost. A time delay >>doesn't decrease the cost. >It doesn't >have to add to the cost of ProLine. MD-BASIC is not a ProLine only program >editor. You can buy it for other programming needs as well. True, MD-BASIC stands well on its own. However ProLine stands much better with MD-BASIC. >>>If you want to make a few MOD's, >>>then just use AppleSoft. >>MODs, or additions? There is a difference. >Both. Looking back, "a few" mods would be possible. Would splitting the root directory fit that? Perhaps the word "minor" would be appropriate in there somewhere. We'll leave file xfer out of the discussion. Thinking about it more carefully, the stock systems may be about equal in this regard. >>>GBBS's message base really >>>SUCKS. ... >>> ProLine has an EXCELLENT message base...GBBS doesn't even have a >>>competitive one. IT REALLY SUCKS for messages. >>Give some reasons. >Ok..I'm being a bit obnoxious here. Sorry. 1) ProLine has GREAT networking >capabilities (regardless of if you WANT them or not). 2) Both GBBS and >ProLine can have message bases in separate partitions. 3) ProLine message >bases can also be put into an 800K disk. 4) GBBS has bugs in the message >base, to my understanding. The only bit I can disagree with is the last point. The "bug" I am familiar with is if a message base is configured with the wrong capacity for the number of messages. For n messages, one needs to tell it to create a file capable of storing (4*n)K. The CONFIG program doesn't properly default to that, and so when the K limit is reached, messages get trashed depending on their proximity to the storage bitmap. >I, PERSONALLY, don't like ANSI, or >animation unless I'm playing an on-line game. Then, I'm prepared for the >slow screen updates, and I don't mind because if the game is good, I'm having >fun. As far as message bases go, I agree that graphics don't belong there. >Games, as you stated, are a GREAT place for color graphics. ProLine does NOT >have this option. Here we are in agreement, more or less. However, a graphics "movie theatre" is a nice place for those who are creative enough to make nice movies to put them, so as to prevent emulation crosstalk when reading messages (since the graphics have been relocated). (Real fun when you receive a PSE ^N for normal text when in a VT-100 emulation, where it will put you into a graphics mode, where lowercase letters are redefined.) I use extensions on the subject lines to indicate graphic messages, and if the extention does not match the emulation, a warning message is printed with the ability to skip the message. However I have not fully implemented this due to the allergic reaction an older version of ACOS had to some 8th-bit ASCII, causing random holes to be created in .S and .G files. I had to salvage what I could and reconfigure. I'm still hesitant to attempt it again, even with the new ACOS. It felt like when I discovered my drive was nuking key blocks on my disks, like block 2. Required total interior replacement. Anyway, I'm digressing... >>>Can GBBS do something useful >>>with special effects?...like maybe a full screen text editor? >>Definitely. Such a thing already exists. However I don't use it. I have >>other modifications that are more important to me right now. >The full-screen text editor available on ProLine is a GREAT option. It makes >things easier to edit, and I'm using it right now to add this message. It >has it's SMALL downturns but it works well. I like it. The reason I don't use the ACOS full-screen editor is that it isn't just a text editor, but also a graphics editor. Since it is designed for ProTERM Special Emulation, it will allow inclusion of graphics where others couldn't, due to their generic nature. This make them more useful for more users, but limits what unique things each user could do, if it was designed specifically for them. This is both an advantage and a disadvantage for both. It depends on the sysop's feelings on the subject whether or not it is desireable. For myself, it gives me less control on filtering out emulations for those who don't have them. >>What happened to your manual? >For the Ampersand commands...I don't have the manual. Ah, I understand. (THAT'S what that 4th registration card was for! Thanks for jogging my memory.) >>>2) have about 4 to 5 times as many network bridges >>>than GBBS. >>Networking is not the sole reason to run a BBS. If every BBS was >>networked, you'd effectively have only one BBS. >Fine. We understand that networking is not the only reason to run a BBS. >But, like you said, we're only offering comparisions between the two systems. >ProLine has a better networking system than GBBS and just because you don't >want to network doesn't invalidate that point. If you want to network, then >ProLine is better than GBBS in this aspect. Agreed. >Now, what can ACOS do that MD-BASIC can't and >vise-versa? It can be used online. You can load up a segment, edit it, save it, then run it. It is automatically compiled and run at that time. You can code AppleSoft online with ProLine, but you can't with MD-BASIC. Shell scripts are a nice compromise, but still not full coding ability. Vice-versa, MD-BASIC is a good tool for creating programs. You can create programs which can execute by themselves, without the need of an underlying system like ACOS. Plus, you can use your favorite BASIC -> ML compiler on the resulting code to make it run even faster. No such tools exist to make ACOS files into ML files... at least, none that I know of. Then again, ACOS was designed to be used as a language for communications -- it is part of the name. MD-BASIC was just applied to that field, not designed for it. That is the root of the conflict. They were designed for different purposes. Even if I never run ProLine, I would still use MD-BASIC (as soon as I get at least a second 3.5" drive :-). >God...it's tough to include your signature :) How are the attributes this >time? I think I got it. Signatures are usually edited down to just what is needed. For mine, you'd only include the last line, since that is the only important information in it. However one only includes the previous poster's signature, not any of those previous. The reduction is shown in the editing I made of yours: >Amrit >ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | >UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | But, one can do without the previous poster's signature altogether. I include only the alternate email paths available. The best way to think of inclusion is the taking of the message being replied to, adding a > at the beginning of every [non-blank] line, adding an attributation at the beginning in standard form, and then editing. Everything else is up to the human in the editor, and whether the system is configured to add a signature at the end. -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) (06/09/91)
drudman@hpcc01.HP.COM writes: >apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com writes: >>ProLine uses, and the ampersand comands...I don't even have a manual...i did >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>just fine. With anything you have to take a little time to get used to >>it...but when you do, you know how it works. Like you just can load up GBBS >Lets talk pirate boards, bonehead! Just where did you get your copy of >Pro-Line? I'm sure Morgan Davis would love to see this feed. Listen shit-for-brains...do you think I would even try to make an issue about ProLine in front of Morgan Davis if I didn't buy it!? Morgan Davis does see this feed. I was talking about Manuals for AppleSoft and MD-BASIC. Who the hell are you anyway? I can give you the numbers for about 10 GBBS priate boards right now...got them right here in front of me. I can't even find ONE number for a ProLine pirate board. Now you tell me that GBBS doesn't have pirate boards. Now, before anyone else totally loses it...that is not an issue for ProLine vs. GBBS...now I'm just defending myself. Everything else you said carries no weight and I will not include it. You want to rip on me, then do it in E-mail; otherwise shut the hell up. Here ends my flame. Amrit ==The Hindu Love Gods BBS - - - - Bloomfield Hills, MI - - - - 313/644-0481=== ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | | :) :-) 8-) -:) :-() :-{ :-( {:-( }-:O *-:) Got anymore? | | ==============================================================================
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Life...) (06/09/91)
geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Chris Moylan) writes: >About networking... >A non-networked BBS would nearly defeat the purpose of having message base >emphasis, however then these un-networked systems would have better file >bases. Funny how mine is doing quite well as a message based BBS with no files whatsoever. Plenty of regular callers. >no one has said ProLine is the best file bbs, In fact, I've given that, as stock, they are about even. SuperTAC isn't packaged with GBBS "Pro", it just happens to be what everyone runs. That is precisely why I refuse to run SuperTAC. I don't run a clone system. Never have, never will. The transfer area I have is for my and my co's use only, written by myself. Oh, and I don't really use that many networked systems. I like the atmosphere of local systems, with the occasional "of local interest" message is forwarded from a network. It makes it less intrusive. >Chris Moylan | ProLine: geniusman@pro-hindugods >CoSysop: Hindu Love Gods BBS | Internet: geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."