unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (05/29/91)
In article <1991May28.061315.19279@unlinfo.unl.edu> greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) writes: >>ProLine is written in AppleSoft Basic...actually more like MD-Basic...Morgan >>Davis's ORIGINAL creation. > >Don't forget to mention that MD-BASIC requires an Apple IIgs to run, and >adds to the price of the product. Another fun things is that the code >comes in AppleSoft with sequential line numbers, making editing a chore >without a renumbering program. But you're not supposed to be editing the program in AppleSoft! You edit the source file then recompile (or reinterpret or whatever it actually is) it back into an AppleSoft file. It just seems you may be missing the point of MD-BASIC, from what I've read of it. -- /unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu Apple IIGS Forever! unknown@cats.ucsc.edu\ |WANT to help get ULTIMA VI //e or GS written?-mail me. CHEAP CD info-mail me.| \ It's a Late Night World.... Of Love /
drudman@hpcc01.HP.COM (Drew Rudman) (05/31/91)
I'm sorry, but any system that is based on Applesoft basic is definitely NOT the best. Pro-Line has its merits, but it is lacking in many respects. Sure, if you want a system straight out of the box - maybe Pro-Line is for you. GBBS on the other hand provides you with a completely new programming language (very similar to basic so the transition is not that difficult) that offers text file based source code and a compiler. No run-time interpretation of your system segments. This results in a faster system. I looked at Pro-Line when I began investigating starting a BBS, but I made the decision to go with GBBS because of its programming flexibility. The ACOS programming language does have its quirks, but with improvements such as MACOS and METAL, the language has become quite robust and very quick. As far as networking goes, it is very easy to set up networking modules for GBBS (take a look at Ogg-Net, a 30 system network, hubbed across the US.) It may not have Internet support, but creating support for it would be very easy for a decent ACOS programmer. Pro-Line may have a better installed base for Networking, but it is not the ONLY networking Apple II software. I'm not stating that GBBS (ACOS or METAL) is the end-all BBS software for the Apple II, but it does excel in some areas that Pro-Line doesn't. [ Call... 9600bps/60meg ][ Drew Rudman ] [ The Charge ][ ] [ Apple ][ IBM ][ Internet: drudman@hpiosa.corp.hp.com ] [ (415) 321-4713 ][ The Charge BBS: Axe Slinger (#1) ]
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/01/91)
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) writes: >greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) writes: >>@ () writes: >>>ProLine is written in AppleSoft Basic...actually more like MD-Basic...Morgan >>>Davis's ORIGINAL creation. >>Don't forget to mention that MD-BASIC requires an Apple IIgs to run, and >>adds to the price of the product. Another fun things is that the code >>comes in AppleSoft with sequential line numbers, making editing a chore >>without a renumbering program. >But you're not supposed to be editing the program in AppleSoft! >You edit the source file then recompile (or reinterpret or whatever it >actually is) it back into an AppleSoft file. It just seems you may be >missing the point of MD-BASIC, from what I've read of it. How can you do that if you can't run MD-BASIC? That is my point! If you don't have a IIgs, you are going to suffer badly. >/unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu Apple IIGS Forever! unknown@cats.ucsc.edu\ -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/01/91)
drudman@hpcc01.HP.COM (Drew Rudman) writes: >GBBS on the other hand provides you with a completely new programming language >(very similar to basic so the transition is not that difficult) that offers >text file based source code and a compiler. No run-time interpretation of >your system segments. Er, it is interpreted. In fact, one can take the .C (or .G, if it is the older version) file and "decompile" it into the .S file again, lacking the original comments and non-PUBLIC labels. (Given generic names.) I have a C program to do that now. >The ACOS programming >language does have its quirks, Oh ACOS, how it bugs you, let me count the ways... ACOS needs to go through a lot of bug fixes, which L&L seems to refuse that they exist. You have to be able to tell them exactly how to reproduce the error, which is near to impossible. One I found I traced back to it not liking to be run with my ProDOS v1.7 with Bird's Better Bye. Its lack of arrays is its worst point. >but with improvements such as MACOS and METAL, >the language has become quite robust and very quick. MACOS is of dubious legal status, and METAL is a separate program altogether. Now if there was an ACOS->METAL translator (and there was a driver for my modem) I'd switch very quickly. I'd love to help get it working. Right now, when I switch over, I'm strictly local. I'm going to need to make lots of changes. Hotkeys have got to go. >As far as networking goes, it is very easy to set up networking modules for >GBBS (take a look at Ogg-Net, a 30 system network, hubbed across the US.) It >may not have Internet support, but creating support for it would be very easy >for a decent ACOS programmer. In fact there are people working on this now. Already there is support available for sysops via Internet mail. I run the thing. METAL support is available too. >[ Call... 9600bps/60meg ][ Drew Rudman ] >[ Apple ][ IBM ][ Internet: drudman@hpiosa.corp.hp.com ] >[ (415) 321-4713 ][ The Charge BBS: Axe Slinger (#1) ] -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Chris Moylan) (06/01/91)
> But you're not supposed to be editing the program in AppleSoft! >You edit the source file then recompile (or reinterpret or whatever it >actually is) it back into an AppleSoft file. It just seems you may be >missing the point of MD-BASIC, from what I've read of it. Yes, but MD-BASIC costs money to buy, and you HAVE to have a GS for it to even run, so editing ProLine files on a //e IS a chore without a renumbering program. However you are correct I think about the use of MD-BASIC to edit and recompile BASIC programs. Chris Chris Moylan | ProLine: geniusman@pro-hindugods CoSysop: Hindu Love Gods BBS | Internet: geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com 313/644-0481 | UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman 300-9600 bps, v.32/v.42/v.42bis | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman@nosc.mil
psonnek@pro-mansion.cts.com (Patrick Sonnek) (06/01/91)
In-Reply-To: message from greg@hoss.unl.edu >How can you do that if you can't run MD-BASIC? That is my point! If you >don't have a IIgs, you are going to suffer badly. I've yet to find a reason to change Morgans code. I've added a couple of modules to the system, but that did not require changing the pro-line code, as I didn't change proline code, I didn't need MD-basic. (modules add very easily, as any basic program in the $/bin directory is a valid proline command.) I don't need to write things like a full screen editor, because one already exists. I don't need ACOS to change the menus, as all the menus are contained as arrays in $/etc/plush.m. ETM is available for proline, so you do have access to one of the better file transfer systems. And to add to the list of kudos, I to have Morgans support to be outstanding, as well as the support from the 90+ proline sysops. ---- ProLine: psonnek@pro-mansion Sysop Pro-mansion: 507/726-6181 Internet: psonnek@pro-mansion.cts.com MCImail: psonnek UUCP: crash!pro-mansion!psonnek ARPA: crash!pro-mansion!psonnek@nosc.mil BITNET: psonnek%pro-mansion.cts.com@nosc.mil <<Real programmers don't program in HLL's.>> <<HLL's are for wimpy, application coders!>>
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/02/91)
psonnek@pro-mansion.cts.com (Patrick Sonnek) writes: >greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury, Jr.) writes: >>How can you do that [edit code] if you can't run MD-BASIC? That is my >>point! If you don't have a IIgs, you are going to suffer badly. >I've yet to find a reason to change Morgans code. I've got one. Lack of a hard drive. I don't currently have plans to network all over the place. I want to excise the bulk I don't need right now, so I can get it to run on 2 800K devices. At least with ACOS, you get the functionality and ease of coding found in MD-BASIC as standard packaging. True, you don't have things like arrays, but you aren't stuck with running another clone system. If you don't modify the code you are given, you might as well be running an IBM system. >And to add to the list of kudos, I to have Morgans support to be outstanding, >as well as the support from the 90+ proline sysops. So far I've just been told basically that my lack of a hard drive was a deficiency in my hardware, not with ProLine. I feel it is equally a deficiency in ProLine that it is requiring me to have said hardware. This came from Morgan, in a public message. Then again, I haven't gotten my registration cards sent in yet, but my registration hangs on whether I can get it to run or not. >ProLine: psonnek@pro-mansion Sysop Pro-mansion: 507/726-6181 >Internet: psonnek@pro-mansion.cts.com MCImail: psonnek >UUCP: crash!pro-mansion!psonnek ARPA: crash!pro-mansion!psonnek@nosc.mil >BITNET: psonnek%pro-mansion.cts.com@nosc.mil > <<Real programmers don't program in HLL's.>> > <<HLL's are for wimpy, application coders!>> And you run a ProLine site. BASIC is an HLL. Oh, forgot, you have said you found no reason to edit the code. -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Chris Moylan) (06/03/91)
In-Reply-To: message from drudman@hpcc01.HP.COM It is NOT based on AppleSoft Basic entirely. It has AmperWorks and ModemWorks to give it commands AppleSoft could NEVER have otherwise. As for ACOS, what the HELL is it? If I bought a BBS, I'd buy one based on a language I already know. I also think the GBBS compiler is no better than MD-BASIC which compiles BASIC w/ ModemWorks and AmperWorks files into a usable application. ProLine is based on a UNIX type interface, which GBBS has not, in fact, GBBS has not a lot, from what I've seen. It's message bases are hard to use, it has NO user friendliness, and it is NOT AT ALL faster than ProLine on a similar system. The reason I said it has no user friendliness is because when I called it, I logged in new and when I finally made it to a Main Menu of some kind, I had to keep pressing '?' to get the menu again! It was SO hard to use, and the message bases are not so great also. BTW - I know a few BBS sysops who have dropped GBBS for ProLine, don't underestimate AppleSoft basic's flexbility. Have you ever written a ProLine application? I have. Chris Chris Moylan | ProLine: geniusman@pro-hindugods CoSysop: Hindu Love Gods BBS | Internet: geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com 313/644-0481 | UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman 300-9600 bps, v.32/v.42/v.42bis | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman@nosc.mil
danield@pro-grouch.cts.com (Daniel Davidson) (06/03/91)
In-Reply-To: message from greg@hoss.unl.edu >So far I've just been told basically that my lack of a hard drive was a >deficiency in my hardware, not with ProLine. I feel it is equally a >deficiency in ProLine that it is requiring me to have said hardware. This >came from Morgan, in a public message. The List of hardware requirements for ProLine includes at leat 5Meg of hard drive space. This is included in every bit of adversiting that the Morgan Davis Group does for the product. As I see it, you complaint is akin to yelling at Apple because GS/OS will not run on your //e. Daniel (sysop@pro-grouch.cts.com)
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/03/91)
geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Chris Moylan) writes: >It is NOT based on AppleSoft Basic entirely. It has AmperWorks and >ModemWorks to give it commands AppleSoft could NEVER have otherwise. Ampersand routines. Just what we need, remembering all these extra things to use if we want to code it directly in AppleSoft. Nice that similar commands are nice and straightforward in ACOS. >As >for ACOS, what the HELL is it? ACOS is the language which GBBS "Pro" runs in. It is a BASIC. >If I bought a BBS, I'd buy one based on a >language I already know. It doesn't take long to learn ACOS. It is a BASIC, and history shows that it can be learned rather quickly. >I also think the GBBS compiler is no better than >MD-BASIC which compiles BASIC w/ ModemWorks and AmperWorks files into >a usable application. The GBBS compiler (ACOS -- oh, might as well define that acronym: All-purpose Communications Operating System) doesn't require the addition of things like ModemWorks and AmperWorks, since everything is already built into the language. >ProLine is based on a UNIX type interface, which >GBBS has not, Whoever told you UNIX was the best interface ever is a damned liar. >in fact, GBBS has not a lot, from what I've seen. It's >message bases are hard to use, it has NO user friendliness, and it is NOT >AT ALL faster than ProLine on a similar system. Then your comparison was on a poor system. I have seen poor GBBS systems, usually due to sysop neglect. I find the message bases the best line-mode interface I have yet encountered. I'd place it above rn. I'd say nn was better, if I wasn't restricting myself to discussion of line-mode presentation. As to speed, you probably were comparing a //e GBBS system to a IIgs ProLine system, or at least an accellerated version of ProLine. AppleSloth got that name for a reason. Also make sure you weren't comparing a 2400 bps connection to a local mode access. (Yes, there are people who will do this.) >The reason I said it has >no user friendliness is because when I called it, I logged in new and when >I finally made it to a Main Menu of some kind, I had to keep pressing '?' >to get the menu again! You just named a thing that I despise other systems for: printing full-screen menus at every opportunity, including while trying to read messages. True, they have a mode to prevent them from appearing unless asked for, but then they terse everything down. I feel that when a user wants a menu they will ASK for it, not have it foisted on them every time. One user captures important menus in his copy buffer, and references it only when needed, and not wasting valuable online time having it sent. >It was SO hard to use, and the message bases are >not so great also. Sounds like you let your own IBM system expectations get in the way. Disgusted you had to hit return occasionally to do an option? Hotkeys are another hatred of mine, only tolerated while in reading mode. One burst of line noise and you might as well activated the randomizer on your TARDIS. The fact that you rate the message bases slightly higher probably reflects this. Hotkeys prevent inclusion of parameters, an ability I use often. >BTW - I know a few BBS sysops who have dropped GBBS for ProLine, don't >underestimate AppleSoft basic's flexbility. Have you ever written a ProLine >application? I have. AppleSoft BASIC's inflexibility is aptly demonstrated by the need to use & routines. >Chris Moylan | ProLine: geniusman@pro-hindugods >CoSysop: Hindu Love Gods BBS | Internet: geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com >313/644-0481 | UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman >300-9600 bps, v.32/v.42/v.42bis | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman@nosc.mil And BASIC is an acronym. Please treat it as such. It belongs in all CAPS. Oh, how many of these ProLine systems here charge a fee for the use of the system? There exist time=money code in the system. Reminds me of some dialog from a movie: "Time is money." "I thought you said opium was money." "Money is money!" "Then what was time, again?" -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
bbarba@pro-torii.cts.com (Bob Barba) (06/04/91)
In-Reply-To: message from greg@hoss.unl.edu > Oh, how many of these ProLine systems here charge a fee for the use of the > system? There exist time=money code in the system. This Pro-Torii from Japan a Pro-Line site. I am networked with the other Pro-Line sites in the States and I DON'T CHARGE FOR ACCESS here. Now for the rest of the Pro-Line SysOps: How many of you charge for access to your Pro-Line board?? Seems like "Enquiring minds want to know!" ---- ProLine: bbarba@pro-torii | Pro-Torii (Iwakuni, Japan) Internet: bbarba@pro-torii.cts.com | 011-81-611-753-4846 UUCP: crash!pro-torii!bbarba | Hrs: 8pm - 5am Mon-Thr Mail: Bob Barba, PO Box 139 FPO Seattle, Wa 98764 | 8pm Fri - 5am Mon ---- ProLine: bbarba@pro-torii | Pro-Torii (Iwakuni, Japan) Internet: bbarba@pro-torii.cts.com | 011-81-611-753-4846 UUCP: crash!pro-torii!bbarba | Hrs: 8pm - 5am Mon-Thr Mail: Bob Barba, PO Box 139 FPO Seattle, Wa 98764 | 8pm Fri - 5am Mon
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/04/91)
danield@pro-grouch.cts.com (Daniel Davidson) writes: >greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury, Jr.) writes: >>So far I've just been told basically that my lack of a hard drive was a >>deficiency in my hardware, not with ProLine. I feel it is equally a >>deficiency in ProLine that it is requiring me to have said hardware. This >>came from Morgan, in a public message. >The List of hardware requirements for ProLine includes at leat 5Meg of hard >drive space. This is included in every bit of adversiting that the Morgan >Davis Group does for the product. The first I knew about it was when the software arrived. The messages from people with ProLine, which could be inferred as free advertising, don't mention it. People are strongly suggesting others buy ProLine without going into all its requirements. Morgan never told me about the limitation until I mentioned it after I discovered it. Never saw a single printed ad for ProLine until it arrived. However I am not complaining that I wasn't well informed. I am under agreement from Morgan on not saying why (although a regular reader of alt.bbs should be able to explain it for you, due to Morgan accidentally crossposting mail to me publically). >As I see it, you complaint is akin to yelling at Apple because GS/OS will not >run on your //e. My sister has a IIe. I have a IIgs. I thought I'd clarify that. (Further clarification, I say IIe instead of //e because her's is unenhanced.) It isn't that much similar an argument anyway. We're talking storage, not processors. >Daniel >(sysop@pro-grouch.cts.com) If ProLine had a way to tell it it was running off of multiple disks instead of one partiton then I wouldn't be having so many problems. Seems the largest the system can get is 32 MB. Alot of that is going to be used for your networking "needs". ACOS splits up nicely. METAL even better, since you aren't restricted to only the predefined drive specifiers in ACOS. -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
sysadmin@pnet91.cts.com (Matthew Montano) (06/04/91)
For your information: The charge system in ProLine has NEVER been finished. It exists as a loose end for some enterprising programmer to do his work in. My background: I have run an Apple II BBS for four years now. I have used a Macintosh, and presently use a UNIX box for the purpose. But for almost three years I ran it on an Apple II, half the time on ProLine, half the time on GBBS. Guess which one I ran first? GBBS. My opinions on ACOS: It's buggy as hell. Applesoft, albeit an interpreted program, has virtually zero bugs. ACOS' bugs are intermittent and can wreck havock on a system. It's handling of message files is attrocious (although unique) and dangerous. ACOS has virtually no control over the serial port and local screen except through poke's and peek's. ACOS cannot make a IIgs modem port dial out.. useless for networking. I wrote a complete networking/mail handler system in ACOS a few years back. I never released it, but would dread doing it again. I was constantly fighting ACOS bugs. It was also horribly slow. ACOS' bugs creep up in linking programs, the use of global variables etc. As well, ACOS does nasty things at the ProDOS level. Think it uses MLI calls to read and write files? Nope, reads and writes files itself, block by block, by passing the standard MLI calls. Real stupid there.. your simply asking for a corrupted HD. I paid $45 more for ProLine, and got a LOT more. For one thing, I can call (or email) the author if I have a problem. He'll respond, usually with a fix, whatta concept. I was writing a module for ProLine that would use a non-sanctioned method of transfering messages faster. The author of ProLine STILL helped me work on it. Almost any level headed suggestion gets implemented in ProLine on the next release. ProLine sysops were talking about a mail-based UNIX style mail-server. Two weeks later, we had one! Before anyone wanted a full screen editor, we got one! ProLine is a modern, fully featured piece of speedy BBS software for any Apple II capable of running ProDOS (even most clones). It has an author who understands the BBS market, continually writes new programs, provides immediate bug fixes and solutions. ProLine follows Apple's rules, connects to the rest of the world in a standard publically documented method provides for much easier user expansion of the system and still astounds some callers as to the system it is running off of. GBBS is a speedy, customizable package which doesn't follow the rules for accessing the HD, uses poor security measures for passwords, has many back doors etc. Has no standards for networking. Is ridden with bugs in the ACOS compiler. GBBS's technical support person, Lance Taylor Warren never even WROTE the damn program... he hardly knows 65C02 code! Mr. Warren has been promising a new version of the GBBS system since a I year before I bought GBBS, in 1987! Bug fixes (i.e. ACOS v2.0) cost people money!.. and it wasn't bug free.... UGH! Not that GBBS is horrible... But for MOST people, ProLine represents a better BBS system to go for. Matthew --- ventureTech Intelligence - We're trying to make computers easy, SOME HOW! Email: sysadmin@pnet91.cts.com (most mailers won't barf on that..) My comments aren't even worth a disclaimer... And the further I get from the things that I care about... The less I care about how much further away I get - Robert Smith, 1989
danield@pro-grouch.cts.com (Daniel Davidson) (06/04/91)
geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Chris Moylan) writes: >>It is NOT based on AppleSoft Basic entirely. It has AmperWorks and >>ModemWorks to give it commands AppleSoft could NEVER have otherwise. >Ampersand routines. Just what we need, remembering all these extra things >to use if we want to code it directly in AppleSoft. Nice that similar >commands are nice and straightforward in ACOS. Most of the ampersand commands from ModemWorks/amperworks are things you can't do stright from ACOS anyhow. Things like Terminal Emulation using Termcaps. That was something Lance Has been promising for the past several years with ACOS and LLUCE. >Hot Keys >are another hatred of mine, only tolerated while in reading mode. One >burst of line noise and you might as well activated the randomizer on your >TARDIS. Finaly somethine we agree on! I can't stand Hot keys for the most part. As for the randomiser, The Doctor did finaly get rid of that for all the good it does him... (Oops, Wrong news group :) ) >BTW - I know a few BBS sysops who have dropped GBBS for ProLine, don't >underestimate AppleSoft basic's flexbility. Have you ever written a ProLine >application? I have. >AppleSoft BASIC's inflexibility is aptly demonstrated by the need to use >& routines. ACOS's infexability is apty demonstrated by it's lack of arrays, and a working ON ERR GOTO tyoe statement. >Oh, how many of these ProLine systems here charge a fee for the use of the >system? There exist time=money code in the system. To my knowledge there are No ProLine sites that charge a fee. FYI, I am a registered GBBS "Pro" sysop, and I Choose to run proline. System maint is much better, and you don't have to edit the calling program (ie. Main.seg) to add extra programs (Like SuperTac). Even when I was running GBBS "Pro" I always thought it was a kludge. It never seemed well planed or organized to me. Daniel (root@pro-grouch)
sb@pnet91.cts.com (Stephen Brown) (06/05/91)
sysadmin@pnet91.cts.com (Matthew Montano) writes: > [cut] > >My opinions on ACOS: It's buggy as hell. Applesoft, albeit an interpreted >program, has virtually zero bugs. ACOS' bugs are intermittent and can wreck > [cut] Incorrect. AppleSoft is buggy as hell. There are dozens of articles in CALL APPLE (probably in SoftTalk too) on AppleSoft's errors. They even mention one in the Apple II Users' Guide. Fortunately, however, *most* AppleSoft bugs won't send you into the Monitor, rather thay'll cause unpredictable results or cause the machine to hang. > >Matthew >--- >ventureTech Intelligence - We're trying to make computers easy, SOME HOW! >Email: sysadmin@pnet91.cts.com (most mailers won't barf on that..) >My comments aren't even worth a disclaimer... >And the further I get from the things that I care about... >The less I care about how much further away I get - Robert Smith, 1989 +---------------------------------------------------------+ | Stephen Brown Toronto, Canada | | Internet: sb@pnet91.cts.com UUCP: utzoo!pnet91!sb | +---------------------------------------------------------+ | Apple II Forever !!! | +---------------------------------------------------------+ | Like my new .signature. ? Too bad. | +---------------------------------------------------------+
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/05/91)
sysadmin@pnet91.cts.com (Matthew Montano) writes: >My opinions on ACOS: It's buggy as hell. Applesoft, albeit an interpreted >program, has virtually zero bugs. ACOS' bugs are intermittent and can [wreak >havok] on a system. What version of ACOS were you using? What version of ProDOS were you using? I had lots of strange bugs (like it saying clr$=chr$(12)+chr$(0)+chr$(0) was a String Too Long error at the first + on the first pass after startup, but not after hitting S on the ***RESTART prompt) which I finally was able to track down to ProDOS 8 v1.7. Also lots of LINK errors which fixed themselves in the opposite manner of the clr$ bug. Updating to the ProDOS 8 v1.8 supplied in the upgrade archive available for free download from L&L Support fixed this. I'm now running ProDOS 8 v1.9, and still no major bugs. (The LINK errors caused ML crashes. No longer with the right ProDOS.) Basically, ACOS is picky about the version of ProDOS you use. It shouldn't be, but it is. >It's handling of message files is attrocious (although >unique) and dangerous. I love how it does it. Saves lots of space wasted with using regular text files, and one rarely needs to write more than 4K, unless you are doing major >including. Access is nice and fast. One sysop used message files for more than just storing messages. Storing custom user emulations. Information on locations of downloads. Quote generators. He stopped using it due to using wrong ProDOS and not realizing it. Now he's trying his hand at coding his own system in C. Lack of message files is one of the drawbacks I find with METAL, which is a rather good system, which will have more standard features than ProLine when finished. >ACOS has virtually no control over the serial port and >local screen except through poke's and peek's. And ProLine does? Have you ever used the PRINT @ command in ACOS? That is part of the code in LOGON.SEG. There are also ways to direct output to console-only or modem-only. This was all outlined in the manual. >ACOS cannot make a IIgs modem >port dial out.. useless for networking. I don't know about that. My modem is internal, and I don't network anyway. Not a requirement for a BBS, never was. >I wrote a complete networking/mail handler system in ACOS a few years back. I >never released it, but would dread doing it again. I was constantly fighting >ACOS bugs. It was also horribly slow. ACOS' bugs creep up in linking programs, >the use of global variables etc. Sounds like problems with ProDOS version to me. >As well, ACOS does nasty things at the ProDOS level. Think it uses MLI calls >to read and write files? Nope, reads and writes files itself, block by block, >by passing the standard MLI calls. Real stupid there.. your simply asking for >a corrupted HD. Again, what version of ACOS? Also, what hard drive? I've never gotten a corrupted disk from using ACOS. I run off 2 800K disks. With a little moving around of files, I could add a file transfer system, but who needs it? There are already too many such systems around here. Just asking for leeches. >I paid $45 more for ProLine, and got a LOT more. For one thing, I can call (or >email) the author if I have a problem. He'll respond, usually with a fix, >whatta concept. While support from L&L Support is substandard, one can usually get good help from fellow sysops. The variables on$ and off$ have become defined for specific purposes already, and are often found used canonically in any new segment. (Myself, I don't like them, but that's a personal opinion. :-) L&L Support isn't the only support system available. There are other official support boards, unofficial support boards, and even one which is "an officially unofficial support board." If you can pin down a bug in a reproducable form, Lance supposedly would get it fixed. >I was writing a module for ProLine that would use a >non-sanctioned method of transfering messages faster. The author of ProLine >STILL helped me work on it. Think he'll help with a non-sanctioned method of storing the system on separate partitions/disks? >Almost any level headed suggestion gets >implemented in ProLine on the next release. From what I've been told, mine would probably not be considered a "level headed suggestion". >ProLine sysops were talking about >a mail-based UNIX style mail-server. Two weeks later, we had one! I still don't see why people hail UNIX as THE system to emulate. It isn't as if it were perfection incarnate. (Uh oh, sounds like I'll be flamed by those who follow the UNIX religion.) >Before >anyone wanted a full screen editor, we got one! A full screen editor is available for ACOS. METAL has one built-in. >GBBS is a speedy, customizable package which doesn't follow the rules for >accessing the HD, uses poor security measures for passwords, Poor security measures? You mean not having them encrypted in the files? Why bother encrypting them when it isn't even possible for the users to access the file? >has many back >doors etc. I'm just waiting for someone to try. VCRs are your friends. >Has no standards for networking. Who really NEEDS networking? Ogg-NET is working fine, and code is being worked on to tie into USENET, Future-NET, and even ProLine systems. FidoNET code already exists, and is implemented on L&L Support now. >Is ridden with bugs in the ACOS >compiler. Again, if you ran the right ProDOS, most of those bugs would vanish. >GBBS's technical support person, Lance Taylor Warren never even >WROTE the damn program... he hardly knows 65C02 code! Mr. Warren has been >promising a new version of the GBBS system since a I year before I bought >GBBS, in 1987! True, I don't have too good of an opinion of "Lancey Taylor". LLUCE is the best piece of VaporWare I know. >Bug fixes (i.e. ACOS v2.0) cost people money!.. and it wasn't >bug free.... UGH! Huh? It didn't cost me to upgrade to v2.11, other than a phone call, which I believe is what has been stated is all it costs for ProLine. I had pre-2.0 before. Never expect an n.0 version to be bug free; there are very few exceptions. >Not that GBBS is horrible... But for MOST people, ProLine represents a better >BBS system to go for. For the new sysop with a low budget and no-frills hardware, I cannot suggest ProLine. I'd have to suggest ACOS or METAL. >Matthew >Email: sysadmin@pnet91.cts.com (most mailers won't barf on that..) -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/05/91)
danield@pro-grouch.cts.com (Daniel Davidson) writes: >geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Chris Moylan) writes: Er, not right. danield@pro-grouch.cts.com (Daniel Davidson) writes: >greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury, Jr.) writes: >>geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Chris Moylan) writes: >>>It is NOT based on AppleSoft Basic entirely. It has AmperWorks and >>>ModemWorks to give it commands AppleSoft could NEVER have otherwise. >>Ampersand routines. Just what we need, remembering all these extra things >>to use if we want to code it directly in AppleSoft. Nice that similar >>commands are nice and straightforward in ACOS. >Most of the ampersand commands from ModemWorks/amperworks are things you >can't do stright from ACOS anyhow. Things like Terminal Emulation using >Termcaps. That was something Lance Has been promising for the past several >years with ACOS and LLUCE. This was partially coded by The Equalizer of The Infiltrator in Lincoln, NE, independently. >>>BTW - I know a few BBS sysops who have dropped GBBS for ProLine, don't >>>underestimate AppleSoft basic's flexbility. Have you ever written a ProLine >>>application? I have. >>AppleSoft BASIC's inflexibility is aptly demonstrated by the need to use >>& routines. >ACOS's infexability is apty demonstrated by it's lack of arrays, and a >working ON ERR GOTO tyoe statement. One can simulate arrays in several ways. Even AppleSoft has ON ERROR GOTO. ON ERROR helps to track down programming errors. >FYI, I am a registered GBBS "Pro" sysop, and I Choose to run proline. System >maint is much better, and you don't have to edit the calling program (ie. >Main.seg) to add extra programs (Like SuperTac). Even when I was running >GBBS "Pro" I always thought it was a kludge. It never seemed well planed or >organized to me. I am a registered GBBS "Pro" sysop, METAL owner, and soon to be sending in the cards for ProLine. However I run ACOS. GBBS "Pro" has disappeared under the modifications I have made. I would probably be running METAL right now if I had a modem that worked with it. (I figure I'll give my sister this one.) >Daniel >(root@pro-grouch) -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Chris Moylan) (06/05/91)
>The GBBS compiler (ACOS -- oh, might as well define that acronym: >All-purpose Communications Operating System) doesn't require the addition >of things like ModemWorks and AmperWorks, since everything is already >built into the language. Neither does MD-BASIC. ModemWorks and AmperWorks install automatically in BASIC when ProLine boots. That way all you have to do is put 'em in your programs. THEN they are flexible (which is what I meant by AppleSoft being flexible) >Whoever told you UNIX was the best interface ever is a damned liar. I like it best. >Then your comparison was on a poor system. I have seen poor GBBS systems, >usually due to sysop neglect. I find the message bases the best line-mode >interface I have yet encountered. I'd place it above rn. I'd say nn was >better, if I wasn't restricting myself to discussion of line-mode >presentation. As to speed, you probably were comparing a //e GBBS system >to a IIgs ProLine system, or at least an accellerated version of ProLine. >AppleSloth got that name for a reason. The L & L support BBS suffering from sysop neglect? That surprises me. I believe the L & L GBBS is running on a //gs, and the message system STILL SUCKS! > Also make sure you weren't comparing a 2400 bps connection to a local mode >access. (Yes, there are people who will do this.) I don't use ProLine's message bases from a console. I have only used it locally once or twice. >You just named a thing that I despise other systems for: printing >full-screen menus at every opportunity, including while trying to read >messages. True, they have a mode to prevent them from appearing unless >asked for, but then they terse everything down. I feel that when a user >wants a menu they will ASK for it, not have it foisted on them every time. >One user captures important menus in his copy buffer, and references it >only when needed, and not wasting valuable online time having it sent. Well, you surely know ProLine menus can be turned off, when you set your preferences. Another thing, HOW CAN PEOPLE SAY PLUSH IS UNFRIENDLY?? If you turn your menus off all you see is Main Menu Main:_ How is this user unfriendly, it looks the same as any board! Also, I had never called a GBBS board before when I cablled that one, so how was I supposed to know the commands by heart. It is a BIG pain to keep going into scrollback to see the menu again. >Sounds like you let your own IBM system expectations get in the way. >Disgusted you had to hit return occasionally to do an option? Hotkeys >are another hatred of mine, only tolerated while in reading mode. One >burst of line noise and you might as well activated the randomizer on your >TARDIS. The fact that you rate the message bases slightly higher probably >reflects this. Hotkeys prevent inclusion of parameters, an ability I use >often. I can see your point here, but, again, on ProLine you can turn off Hotkeys. >AppleSoft BASIC's inflexibility is aptly demonstrated by the need to use >& routines. I meant AppleSoft WITH AmperWorks and ModemWorks was flexible, I misspoke. >And BASIC is an acronym. Please treat it as such. It belongs in all >CAPS. I agree, BASIC is an acronym. It should be like this: B.A.S.I.C. if you want to get picky about acronyms! :-) > Oh, how many of these ProLine systems here charge a fee for the >use of the system? There exist time=money code in the system. Not a one I know of, but it is possible to charge by the minute for on line time >-- >/// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are >| |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing > \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the >greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them." Chris Moylan | ProLine: geniusman@pro-hindugods CoSysop: Hindu Love Gods BBS | Internet: geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com 313/644-0481 | UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman 300-9600 bps, v.32/v.42/v.42bis | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman@nosc.mil
drudman@hpcc01.HP.COM (Drew Rudman) (06/06/91)
>WAIT A SEC... don't associate Lance with TC Wilson. >Lance has to do with Acos. TC Wilson did Macos (now unsupported) and has >now wrote, from scratch, M.E.T.A.L., which is similar to, >but totally blows away acos. I apologize. I never meant to lump in TC. My qualms are with Lance and L&L. Both MACOS and METAL are superb products. [ Call... 9600bps/60meg ][ Drew Rudman ] [ The Charge ][ ] [ Apple ][ IBM ][ Internet: drudman@hpiosa.corp.hp.com ] [ (415) 321-4713 ][ The Charge BBS: Axe Slinger (#1) ]
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/06/91)
geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Chris Moylan) writes: >greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury, Jr.) writes: >>The GBBS compiler (ACOS -- oh, might as well define that acronym: >>All-purpose Communications Operating System) doesn't require the addition >>of things like ModemWorks and AmperWorks, since everything is already >>built into the language. >Neither does MD-BASIC. ModemWorks and AmperWorks install automatically in >BASIC when ProLine boots. That way all you have to do is put 'em in your >programs. THEN they are flexible (which is what I meant by AppleSoft being >flexible) Sounds more like MD-BASIC is flexible, and is shoehorning its abilities into AppleSoft. >>Whoever told you UNIX was the best interface ever is a damned liar. >I like it best. I won't dispute that. The fact that it is THE best for ALL is what is untrue. Whatever fits the needs. It fits alot but not all of my needs. Therefore it is not THE best. >>Then your comparison was on a poor system. I have seen poor GBBS systems, >>usually due to sysop neglect. I find the message bases the best line-mode >>interface I have yet encountered. >The L & L support BBS suffering from sysop neglect? That surprises me. >I believe the L & L GBBS is running on a //gs, and the message system STILL >SUCKS! L&L Support is running what is referred to as "Stock GBBS". Plain GBBS with few modifications. I am genuinely surprised that it is using FruityDOG to be a FidoNET system. That isn't like Lance. GBBS "Pro" as distributed is a framework to which you can build and modify to make it something unique. L&L exists to show that even the stock code is capable of running. I believe stock code prints the board number in the form of Bn, number of current message (out of total), and [N][?=Help] in its prompt. Other systems will give online time remaining, board name, x of y, and more options (like jump to specific message #) in <40 characters. Unlike ProLine sites, with GBBS, when you see one, you have not seen them all. >>You just named a thing that I despise other systems for: printing >>full-screen menus at every opportunity, including while trying to read >>messages. True, they have a mode to prevent them from appearing unless >>asked for, but then they terse everything down. I feel that when a user >>wants a menu they will ASK for it, not have it foisted on them every time. >Well, you surely know ProLine menus can be turned off, when you set your >preferences. ... If you >turn your menus off all you see is > > Main Menu > > Main:_ > >How is this user unfriendly, it looks the same as any board! This is what I mean by "terse everything down". You get hardly anything from that! Compare with: [30][Main Menu] (?=Help): _ Time remaining, location, and mentioning how you can call up a menu. That comes from GBBS "Pro". Three errors call up the menu automatically. Very friendly to those who are on slow connections. (I know of 3 people still at 300 bps in my area, and no, they aren't C= users. :-) >Also, I had never called a GBBS board before when I cablled that one, so how >was I supposed to know the commands by heart. It is a BIG pain to keep going >into scrollback to see the menu again. The first thing I do when I get on a new system that insists on printing the menu at every opportunity is to turn the menus off. When I want help, I'll ask for it. There is a fine line between being user friendly and insulting the user's intelligence. If they make 3 errors, they need help, and so get the menu automatically. >>Hotkeys >>are another hatred of mine, only tolerated while in reading mode. One >>burst of line noise and you might as well activated the randomizer on your >>TARDIS. ... >>... Hotkeys prevent inclusion of parameters, an ability I use >>often. >I can see your point here, but, again, on ProLine you can turn off Hotkeys. Good. Another plus for ProLine. A minus for Future Visions, the code that comes with METAL. Hotkey removal is the first thing I'm doing to that code. I have to, when I can tell by ear that my data line is noiser than my voice line. Lincoln's Try & Talk is going to get a call from me soon. >>AppleSoft BASIC's inflexibility is aptly demonstrated by the need to use >>& routines. >I meant AppleSoft WITH AmperWorks and ModemWorks was flexible, I misspoke. At least you get my point then. >I agree, BASIC is an acronym. It should be like this: B.A.S.I.C. if you want >to get picky about acronyms! :-) It is so common you can leave off the periods. Kinda like SCSI. :-) >Chris Moylan | ProLine: geniusman@pro-hindugods >CoSysop: Hindu Love Gods BBS | Internet: geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com >313/644-0481 | UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman >300-9600 bps, v.32/v.42/v.42bis | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman@nosc.mil -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
larry@pro-odyssey.cts.com (System Administrator) (06/06/91)
In-Reply-To: message from greg@hoss.unl.edu [A lot of trash deleted] >If ProLine had a way to tell it it was running off of multiple disks >instead of one partiton then I wouldn't be having so many problems. Seems >the largest the system can get is 32 MB. Alot of that is going to be used >for your networking "needs". I think you have gone beyond distortion of facts. Why don't you just lay off. A few postings back you complain about Adding external software for support, and just a few posting back you suggest to use Proterm to edit the program you support. And the above posting is about as false as you can get. Many Proline SysOps run their system with a minimum of two partitions (You can use an indefinate amount with a IIgs). So it you want to preach do it UNHIPOCRITICAL (is that a word? who cares it fits) and have your facts unbiased and true. ---- ProLine: larry@pro-odyssey Internet: larry@pro-odyssey.cts.com UUCP: crash!pro-odyssey!larry ARPA: crash!pro-odyssey!larry@nosc.mil
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/07/91)
larry@pro-odyssey.cts.com (System Administrator) writes: >greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury, Jr.) writes: >>If ProLine had a way to tell it it was running off of multiple disks >>instead of one partiton then I wouldn't be having so many problems. Seems >>the largest the system can get is 32 MB. Alot of that is going to be used >>for your networking "needs". >I think you have gone beyond distortion of facts. Why don't you just lay off. Hey, if I say something in error, PLEASE point it out. You might just change my mind! I may in fact switch from running ACOS to running ProLine. However I am trying my best to react in a civil manner to this flame. >A few postings back you complain about Adding external software for support, Adding? I thought I was saying all the enhancements one could realistically do without MD-BASIC was adding, not changing of the core. AppleSoft is not designed for large applications. Key routines get lost in the number pool. >and just a few posting back you suggest to use Proterm to edit the program >you support. I suggest it, but I don't say it is required. For a long time I used FreeWriter. I don't own ProTERM only for editing program segments. I also use it for its primary purpose. >And the above posting is about as false as you can get. Many Proline SysOps >run their system with a minimum of two partitions (You can use an indefinate >amount with a IIgs). Since it is a ProDOS 8 application, aren't you limited to those provided by ProDOS 8? If there is some way around this other than SCSI.PART that can allow an infinite number of partitions via an 8-bit application, I'm sure EVERYONE will be interested in knowing how. From what I've seen so far, stock ProLine assumes it will be residing in one partition. Let's just say I'm skeptical that you can access all storage on, say a 32 GB drive, using ProDOS 8. That's 1024 partitions, minimum. >So it you want to preach do it UNHIPOCRITICAL (is that a word? Er, non-hipocritically? Perhaps a topic for alt.usage.english. :-) Then again, I just might be taken to alt.flame.spelling, since I'm not sure on that bit. :-) >who cares it fits) The meaning is carried through. :-) >and have your facts unbiased and true. I freely admit that ProLine does have many features that are not found in other Apple BBS software. However I do maintain that it is NOT the only choice one can make. Different people have different needs, and different hardware and $ restrictions. Too many people see "suggestion for an Apple BBS wanted" and pop up with their suggestion of ProLine, before reading on "I have an Apple //e, 2 5.25" drives, no hard drive, and a limited budget." >Internet: larry@pro-odyssey.cts.com >UUCP: crash!pro-odyssey!larry -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
gtolar@xcluud.sccsi.com (Glynne Tolar) (06/07/91)
sysadmin@pnet91.cts.com (Matthew Montano) writes: > to read and write files? Nope, reads and writes files itself, block by block, > by passing the standard MLI calls. Real stupid there.. your simply asking for > a corrupted HD. > I said I was going to stay out of this but when I see a blatent lie I've got to step in. Take it from someone who <gasp!> has completely disassembled ACOS. There ain't a ProDOS block write call in any version I've seen! I don't buy some of your other sayings eather but like I said, I ain't getting into this. It's almost as bad as II vs. Mac messages. ---- You can paint it all kinds of pretty colors and have speakers give it glowing reviews, but abortion is still baby killing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ gtolar@xcluud.sccsi.com <-or-> uunet!nuchat!xcluud!gtolar I didn't write the organization or path. I just use it.
daveharv@pro-novapple.cts.com (Dave Harvey-SysAdmin) (06/09/91)
In-Reply-To: message from bbarba@pro-torii.cts.com >Now for the rest of the Pro-Line SysOps: > >How many of you charge for access to your Pro-Line board?? Seems like >"Enquiring minds want to know!" No charge for use of our site, however, if you want to sign on other than as a 'guest' you must be a member of our user group. Members can use our BBS at no additional charge. proline: pro-novapple!daveharv | uucp: crash!pnet01!pro-novapple!daveharv | Pro-novapple BBS arpa: crash!pnet01!pro-novapple!daveharv@nosc.mil | 300/1200/2400/9600 Baud Internet: daveharv@pro-novapple.cts.com | 703-671-0416 | Northern Virginia Apple Users Group | P.O. Box 8211, Falls Church, VA 22041 |
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) (06/10/91)
bbarba@pro-torii.cts.com writes: >Now for the rest of the Pro-Line SysOps: > >How many of you charge for access to your Pro-Line board?? Seems like >"Enquiring minds want to know!" No charge to use my system at all. It's free...sometimes I really wish it wasn't :) Amrit ===The Hindu Love Gods BBS - - - - Bloomfield Hills, MI - - - -313/644-0481=== ProLine: apollo@pro-hindugods | Amrit S. Chauhan Internet: apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | Voice: 313/644-2971 UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | Intel 9600ex Modem in use. ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | PPE member: thanks jwolverton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The only ProLine site in the 313 area. Come on, someone buy a ProLine here :) ===============================================================================
scottg@gnh-starport.cts.com (Scott Gentry) (06/11/91)
I'm going to hate myself for this, but there's also EBBS. (Joe, I had to do it - Your BBS needs to be argued about, too %-)) _______________________________________________________________________________ | Scott Gentry * ALPE AFL Scott * I never said that!| | 2051 Mercator Drive * GEnie W.GENTRY * But you never | | Reston, VA 22091 * UUCP: uunet!ingr!ne1300! * know! | | (703) 264-5652 * brnded!scott * Do You? | |_____________________________________________________________________________|