bbarba@pro-torii.cts.com (Bob Barba) (05/23/91)
In-Reply-To: message from grohol@novavax.UUCP >>Hello everyone, I am interested to setup me own BBS but I do not have any >>experiment. Could anyone provide me the information regarding to how to >>setup BBS, what kind of BBS software I should use. What kind of thing I >>should aware of. >I can only assume you are running some kind of Apple II (since ya posted >it here...) So that leaves you with about 6 choices, 2 of which are >the only real programs to run on an Apple II for a BBS. >GBBS Pro (from L&L) is the "standard" of Apple II BBS's. [ Stuff about GBBS deleted] >Metal is the newcomer. [Stuff about METAL deleted] There is another BBS software program that FAR exceeds, any Apple ][ BBS programs that I have ever used. The software is called Pro-Line. Ease of use, OUTSTANDING TECH SUPPORT, from the author MORGAN DAVIS, and the other Pro-Line SysOps, NETWORKING capability. are just some of the features that are available today. Call Pro-Sol (Pro-Lines, first BBS) at 1+619/670-5379 to see Pro-Line in action. I am a sysop of one of the Pro-Line Sites ---- ProLine: bbarba@pro-torii | Pro-Torii (Iwakuni, Japan) Internet: bbarba@pro-torii.cts.com | 011-81-611-753-4846 UUCP: crash!pro-torii!bbarba | Hrs: 8pm - 5am Mon-Thr Mail: Bob Barba, PO Box 139 FPO Seattle, Wa 98764 | 8pm Fri - 5am Mon
cchen@xcluud.sccsi.com (Conway Chen) (05/24/91)
bbarba@pro-torii.cts.com (Bob Barba) writes: > In-Reply-To: message from grohol@novavax.UUCP > > >>Hello everyone, I am interested to setup me own BBS but I do not have any > >>experiment. Could anyone provide me the information regarding to how to > >>setup BBS, what kind of BBS software I should use. What kind of thing I > >>should aware of. > > >I can only assume you are running some kind of Apple II (since ya posted > >it here...) So that leaves you with about 6 choices, 2 of which are > >the only real programs to run on an Apple II for a BBS. > > >GBBS Pro (from L&L) is the "standard" of Apple II BBS's. > [ Stuff about GBBS deleted] > >Metal is the newcomer. > [Stuff about METAL deleted] > > There is another BBS software program that FAR exceeds, any Apple ][ BBS > programs that I have ever used. The software is called Pro-Line. > Ease of use, OUTSTANDING TECH SUPPORT, from the author MORGAN DAVIS, and the > other Pro-Line SysOps, NETWORKING capability. are just some of the features > that are available today. Call Pro-Sol (Pro-Lines, first BBS) at > 1+619/670-5379 to see Pro-Line in action. > > UUCP: crash!pro-torii!bbarba | Hrs: 8pm - 5am Mon-Thr I'm quite sure many more pro-line bbs's would be around, but there is one major problem with pro-line. It costs too much compared to other BBS system software packages. What's more, the other ones are lanugaes themselves and new BBS software that is totally original can be written with it. But, otherwise, proline is wonderful, with a unix like shell and nusenet capabailities... -- Conway Chen cchen@xcluud.sccsi.com uunet!nuchat!xcluud!cchen
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) (05/27/91)
In-Reply-To: message from cchen@xcluud.sccsi.com
Hey...I must agree with bbarba@pro-torii on the ProLine BBS system.
If you're looking for a versatile, compatible, and unix based BBS system.
First of all:
> I'm quite sure many more pro-line bbs's would be around, but there is one
> major problem with pro-line. It costs too much compared to other BBS
> system software packages. What's more, the other ones are lanugaes them-
> selves and new BBS software that is totally original can be written with it.
> But, otherwise, proline is wonderful, with a unix like shell and nusenet
> capabailities...
>
> --
> Conway Chen
> cchen@xcluud.sccsi.com
> uunet!nuchat!xcluud!cchen
ProLine is written in AppleSoft Basic...actually more like MD-Basic...Morgan
Davis's ORIGINAL creation. It allows the modem to speak with the terminal
while in basic. That's what makes it so versatile. How many talented
computer users are not familiar with AppleSoft basic? Not too many. It was
the first language I learned. Morgan introduced it in like 1984 and ever
since then quite a few sysops have added mods to it. He has welcomed it. We
have a great BBS. And no it's not expensive. You can pick up a copy of
ProLine from Programs Plus for just under $100...more like $95. It's a great
deal then! I fully support ProLine in all of it's endeavors. It is the best
Apple BBS software around. However, that all depends on what you want to do
with it. If you're looking to make users beg for access with setting up tons
of access levels...then no, ProLine is not the right BBS software for you.
If you want a BBS that can really do wonders with file sections, then I would
select PRIME BBS...call 313-582-0888 to see that one in action. It is also a
good piece of software. If you're looking for networking capablities...you
can't chose anything BUT ProLine...Prime doesn't do networking (I think) and
many others don't. I'm writing this message on my ProLine board and I have
access to just about anything I want...Compuserve, America OnLine...etc..
(not the specific services...but I can communicate with and get feeds from
those on-line user services.) ProLine is the best Apple Networking Software
on the market today. And with direct links across the nation, you can either
ask the creator (mdavis@pro-sol) for help, or anyone else on the net. It's
worth the investment if you're looking for network capabilities.
Amrit
Firm Supporter of ProLine!!
==The Hindu Love Gods BBS - - - - Bloomfield Hills, MI - - - - 313/644-0481===
ProLine: Steve@pro-hindugods | Internet: Steve@pro-hindugods.cts.com |
UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!Steve | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!Steve@nosc.mil |
==============================================================================greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (05/28/91)
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >cchen@xcluud.sccsi.com (Conway Chen) writes: > Hey...I must agree with bbarba@pro-torii on the ProLine BBS system. >If you're looking for a versatile, compatible, and unix based BBS system. >First of all: >>I'm quite sure many more pro-line bbs's would be around, but there is one >>major problem with pro-line. It costs too much compared to other BBS >>system software packages. What's more, the other ones are lanugaes them- >>selves and new BBS software that is totally original can be written with it. >>But, otherwise, proline is wonderful, with a unix like shell and nusenet >>capabailities... >> >>Conway Chen >>cchen@xcluud.sccsi.com >>uunet!nuchat!xcluud!cchen >ProLine is written in AppleSoft Basic...actually more like MD-Basic...Morgan >Davis's ORIGINAL creation. Don't forget to mention that MD-BASIC requires an Apple IIgs to run, and adds to the price of the product. Another fun things is that the code comes in AppleSoft with sequential line numbers, making editing a chore without a renumbering program. >It allows the modem to speak with the terminal >while in basic. That's what makes it so versatile. How many talented >computer users are not familiar with AppleSoft basic? Not too many. It was >the first language I learned. Well, I guess your first machine was an Apple II series computer then. Myself, mine was a VIC-20, and that was just in-store. I never bought one. >Morgan introduced it in like 1984 and ever >since then quite a few sysops have added mods to it. (Careful with your pronouns. I don't believe Morgan invented AppleSoft BASIC... :-) >He has welcomed it. We >have a great BBS. And no it's not expensive. You can pick up a copy of >ProLine from Programs Plus for just under $100...more like $95. It's a great >deal then! Let me quote from the Product Guide from the Morgan Davis Group: ProLine $195.50 ModemWorks 59.95 MD-BASIC 49.95 ------ $305.30 >It is the best >Apple BBS software around. For its price, it had better be. >However, that all depends on what you want to do >with it. If you're looking to make users beg for access with setting up tons >of access levels...then no, ProLine is not the right BBS software for you. If you want a BBS that can run on a HD-less system, then ProLine is not the right BBS software for you. (Req. 5 MB on one volume, minimum.) >If you want a BBS that can really do wonders with file sections, then I would >select PRIME BBS...call 313-582-0888 to see that one in action. It is also a >good piece of software. Oh, I've seen some rather well written file transfer sections in GBBS "Pro", and no I am not talking about SuperTAC. It was a local modified EFTS "Pro" area. >If you're looking for networking capablities...you >can't chose anything BUT ProLine... Not for long. Networking exists for GBBS "Pro" and METAL. For Internet networking, I am told that it won't be long 'til METAL has that. Still, networking is not what it takes to get people interested in your system. If you have too many net.messages, some users won't like it. I feel that way now when I called L&L Support BBS, which just became part of FidoNet, and I was faced with over 1000 new messages. No thank you. My next modification to my ACOS system is to switch it over to independent message counters. >ProLine is the best Apple Networking Software >on the market today. I won't argue about that. I'll argue whether or not it is necessary, or about the possibility of it being passed by on that statement, but not on its current status. >It's >worth the investment if you're looking for network capabilities. True. >Amrit >Firm Supporter of ProLine!! >==The Hindu Love Gods BBS - - - - Bloomfield Hills, MI - - - - 313/644-0481=== >ProLine: Steve@pro-hindugods | Internet: Steve@pro-hindugods.cts.com | >UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!Steve | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!Steve@nosc.mil | -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
daveharv@pro-novapple.cts.com (Dave Harvey-SysAdmin) (05/28/91)
In-Reply-To: message from cchen@xcluud.sccsi.com >I'm quite sure many more pro-line bbs's would be around, but there is one >major problem with pro-line. It costs too much compared to other BBS system >software packages. What's more, the other ones are lanugaes themselves and >new BBS software that is totally original can be written with it. But, >otherwise, proline is wonderful, with a unix like shell and nusenet >capabailities... You consider $99.00 for ProLine, as costing too much? I think a BBS software package selling for less than $100 very reasonably priced. Over and above that, I think that Proline is better supported with **continuous** support than any other BBS package. proline: pro-novapple!daveharv | uucp: crash!pnet01!pro-novapple!daveharv | Pro-novapple BBS arpa: crash!pnet01!pro-novapple!daveharv@nosc.mil | 300/1200/2400/9600 Baud Internet: daveharv@pro-novapple.cts.com | 703-671-0416 | Northern Virginia Apple Users Group | P.O. Box 8211, Falls Church, VA 22041 |
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) (05/30/91)
In-Reply-To: message from greg@hoss.unl.edu apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com replies to: >>greg@hoss.unl.edu (Name?) writes: >>Don't forget to mention that MD-BASIC requires an Apple IIgs to run, and >>adds to the price of the product. Another fun things is that the code >>comes in AppleSoft with sequential line numbers, making editing a chore >>without a renumbering program. MD-BASIC can't only operate on the Apple IIgs. How can there be over 50 or greater ProLine sites operating on Apple //e's?! MD-Basic is not Apple IIgs specific...you may need to upgrade the lower //'s a bit, but it still works on them. You may have been talking about the actual compiler...I'm talking about ProLine BBS not the compiler. >>>Morgan introduced it in like 1984 and ever >>>since then quite a few sysops have added mods to it. >> >>(Careful with your pronouns. I don't believe Morgan invented AppleSoft >>BASIC... :-) I was talking about ProLine :-) >>>He has welcomed it. We >>>have a great BBS. And no it's not expensive. You can pick up a copy of >>>ProLine from Programs Plus for just under $100...more like $95. It's a >>great >deal then! >> >>Let me quote from the Product Guide from the Morgan Davis Group: >> >>ProLine $195.50 >>ModemWorks 59.95 >>MD-BASIC 49.95 >> ------ >> $305.30 You do NOT need all the programs listed above for ProLine to work. You buy ProLine from Programs Plus for $95 and you are all set to go. You don't NEED ModemWorks or MD-BASIC for ProLine to run. I don't own either one and I bought ProLine from Programs Plus for $95 and am running on it right now... is that expensive for all of ProLine's capabilites? >>If you want a BBS that can run on a HD-less system, then ProLine is not >>the right BBS software for you. (Req. 5 MB on one volume, minimum.) How much room do you want to run a BBS on!? 5 MB is hardly a big deal. If you're serious about running a BBS, then hell, you need a LOT more than just 5 MB...that's an absurd point. >>>If you're looking for networking capablities...you >>>can't chose anything BUT ProLine... >> >>Not for long. Networking exists for GBBS "Pro" and METAL. For Internet >>networking, I am told that it won't be long 'til METAL has that. Regardless of the networking capabilities of GBBS MIGHT have, ProLine still has by far the best ProLine specific network. It has been a growing network for well over nine years...GBBS, IF it does start, will be just that...just starting...ProLine is still the BEST, and will be for a LONG while, networking BBS on the market for the Apple //! >>Still, networking is not what it takes to get people interested in your >>system. If you have too many net.messages, some users won't like it. I >>feel that way now when I called L&L Support BBS, which just became part of >>FidoNet, and I was faced with over 1000 new messages. No thank you. My >>next modification to my ACOS system is to switch it over to independent >>message counters. Well, users can chose which topics they want to be joined to, or if they don't even want that conference, they can unjoin themselves from that. No one is forcing you to read all the net messages...you join what you want and it will keep track of what you are joined to ONLY and not give you the 100 messages from every other conference. Let's get that straight...and hell, I have about 40 users that JUST use the conference areas...who says it steers people away...it has attracted so many to my system! >>>It's >>>worth the investment if you're looking for network capabilities. >> >>True. To recap, ProLine by Morgan Davis has got to be the most comprehensive message system on the Apple Market Today. There is no threat by GBBS or any other software for taking that title away in the near future. ProLine has been establishing its name for over 6-9 years now, and a new system will be just that...brand new and until it has had time to mature, it won't be able to compete with ProLine. ProLine is flexible and I've heard so much crap about boards for the IBM (TAG) and all they're good for is little 12 year-olds that run around playing GOD of the BBS, taking this and that away. I'm very impressed with Morgan's program and your criticisms (sp--it's late) are not well founded at this time. About the renumbering program, if you really want to make serious changes to the system, you as a hopefully knowledgable programmer sure as hell better have a renumbering program! Morgan doesn't want just anyone changing his system around. He did that to discourage sysops that really don't know enough about BASIC (like me) from totally ruining their systems. I don't see why that is a fault of ProLine. At least you CAN change it and even add programs to it. I did, and my knowledge of BASIC is three years in Middle School...how much easier does it get! Still a firm supporter of ProLine... Amrit ==The Hindu Love Gods BBS - - - - Bloomfield Hills, MI - - - - 313/644-0481=== ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | ==============================================================================
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) (05/31/91)
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com replies to: >>greg@hoss.unl.edu (Name?) writes: >>Don't forget to mention that MD-BASIC requires an Apple IIgs to run, and >>adds to the price of the product. Another fun things is that the code >>comes in AppleSoft with sequential line numbers, making editing a chore >>without a renumbering program. >MD-BASIC can't only operate on the Apple IIgs. How can there be over 50 or >greater ProLine sites operating on Apple //e's?! MD-Basic is not Apple IIgs >specific...you may need to upgrade the lower //'s a bit, but it still works >on them. You may have been talking about the actual compiler...I'm talking >about ProLine BBS not the compiler. I'm replying to my own message because I have to clear this little thing up. MD-Basic does require an Apple //gs, but ProLine does not. Keep that distinction clear. ProLine uses MD-Basic, and ProLine WILL run on all apple // computers. So, yes, you do need an Apple //gs for MD-BASIC, but not for ProLine...all clear? :) ==The Hindu Love Gods BBS - - - - Bloomfield Hills, MI - - - - 313/644-0481=== ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | ==============================================================================
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/01/91)
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from greg@hoss.unl.edu >apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com replies to: >>>greg@hoss.unl.edu (Name?) writes: Ouch, you completely fucked up the attribution! Let's try this again: apollo@pro-hundugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr) writes: >>apollo@pro-hundugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >>Don't forget to mention that MD-BASIC requires an Apple IIgs to run, and >>adds to the price of the product. Another fun things is that the code >>comes in AppleSoft with sequential line numbers, making editing a chore >>without a renumbering program. >MD-BASIC can't only operate on the Apple IIgs. How can there be over 50 or >greater ProLine sites operating on Apple //e's?! MD-Basic is not Apple IIgs >specific...you may need to upgrade the lower //'s a bit, but it still works >on them. You may have been talking about the actual compiler...I'm talking >about ProLine BBS not the compiler. MD-BASIC, as you said in a later message, does indeed require a IIgs. If you don't have one, you're stuck with editing AppleSoft code, which is damn hard with how it comes out of the box. I should know, I've been trying to get it to work on 2 800K disks, lacking a hard drive. Perhaps the cost of one of those should be added to the list for ProLine's price. Such an investment is not a necessity with GBBS "Pro" or METAL. I have both resident in an 800K RAMdisk with one 800K drive which I swap when I switch between them. To even go back to ProLine to do editing, I have to archive my entire RAMdisk, copy one disk over, and then deal with sequential AppleSoft, hoping I can find something I can do with it. I'm about ready to put all BAS files into TXT so I can at least use ProTERM on them. (Oh, that's in the RAMdisk too, and I still have plenty of space left.) >>>Morgan introduced it in like 1984 and ever >>>since then quite a few sysops have added mods to it. He has welcomed it. >>>We have a great BBS. And no it's not expensive. You can pick up a copy of >>>ProLine from Programs Plus for just under $100...more like $95. It's a >>>great deal then! >>Let me quote from the Product Guide from the Morgan Davis Group: >> >>ProLine $195.50 >>ModemWorks 59.95 >>MD-BASIC 49.95 >> ------ >> $305.30 Let's at least be fair and compare list prices to list prices. Er, anyone have the list for GBBS "Pro"? >You do NOT need all the programs listed above for ProLine to work. You buy >ProLine from Programs Plus for $95 and you are all set to go. You don't NEED >ModemWorks or MD-BASIC for ProLine to run. I don't own either one and I >bought ProLine from Programs Plus for $95 and am running on it right now... >is that expensive for all of ProLine's capabilites? I'm trying to figure out what the ModemWorks disk is for myself. You need MD-BASIC if you want to edit the code nicely, otherwise you are stuck with AppleSoft. Perhaps I should add that to run MD-BASIC you need a shell like in APW or ORCA. >>If you want a BBS that can run on a HD-less system, then ProLine is not >>the right BBS software for you. (Req. 5 MB on one volume, minimum.) >How much room do you want to run a BBS on!? 5 MB is hardly a big deal. If >you're serious about running a BBS, then hell, you need a LOT more than just >5 MB...that's an absurd point. I've been running GBBS just fine off 2 800K disks. For awhile, I was completely comfortable with the whole thing in a 1024K RAMdisk. A hard drive is not something everyone has. >>>If you're looking for networking capablities...you >>>can't chose anything BUT ProLine... >>Not for long. Networking exists for GBBS "Pro" and METAL. For Internet >>networking, I am told that it won't be long 'til METAL has that. >Regardless of the networking capabilities of GBBS MIGHT have, GBBS DOES have networking capabilities. METAL is now shipping with its own network code included. >ProLine still >has by far the best ProLine specific network. Laddie, don't you think you should... rephrase that? (Sorry, I'm laughing.) >It has been a growing network >for well over nine years...GBBS, IF it does start, will be just that...just >starting... Apparently you have never been on an OGG-NET board. That is a GBBS network. >ProLine is still the BEST, and will be for a LONG while, >networking BBS on the market for the Apple //! Watch out for METAL. Comes with networking, structured language included (unlike MD-BASIC), and support via network as well. >>Still, networking is not what it takes to get people interested in your >>system. If you have too many net.messages, some users won't like it. >Well, users can chose which topics they want to be joined to, or if they >don't even want that conference, they can unjoin themselves from that. No >one is forcing you to read all the net messages...you join what you want and >it will keep track of what you are joined to ONLY and not give you the 100 >messages from every other conference. True. While GBBS' method of a single message counter allows for quick adding and deleting of message areas, it isn't appropriate when it permits users to "unsubscribe" to groups or for networked systems. Modification to a more logical form of independent counters won't be too difficult. The style encourages modification, as opposed to the BAS files ProLine uses. The fact that ProLine handles that properly is a plus for it. Hey, I'm not all against ProLine, it has some real good features. However I have to weigh the pros and cons of each system. >Let's get that straight...and hell, I >have about 40 users that JUST use the conference areas...who says it steers >people away...it has attracted so many to my system! I view net-only readers like I view game-only or file-only users. Chat-only are the bottom of the barrel. >>>It's >>>worth the investment if you're looking for network capabilities. >>True. ... if you're looking for network capabilities. Not everyone NEEDS that. >To recap, ProLine by Morgan Davis has got to be the most comprehensive >message system on the Apple Market Today. There is no threat by GBBS or any >other software for taking that title away in the near future. I wouldn't put it past the METAL package. Plus, it is more affordable, direct from the author than ProLine. >ProLine has >been establishing its name for over 6-9 years now, and a new system will be >just that...brand new and until it has had time to mature, it won't be able >to compete with ProLine. What was ProLine like when it first came out? How long was it worked on before it was "born"? (Hmm, that reminds me, I need to contact someone regarding GBBS ][.) >ProLine is flexible and I've heard so much crap >about boards for the IBM (TAG) and all they're good for is little 12 >year-olds that run around playing GOD of the BBS, taking this and that away. >I'm very impressed with Morgan's program and your criticisms (sp--it's late) >are not well founded at this time. I'm not touching the morass of IBM systems. Let's stick with just the Apple systems for now. As to my criticisms, from what I've seen they still do apply to ProLine. There are still things that other programs have that are ahead of ProLine. >About the renumbering program, if you really want to make serious changes to >the system, you as a hopefully knowledgable programmer sure as hell better >have a renumbering program! I do. It's in DOS 3.3. Not very useful there. Doesn't like ProDOS much. My filing system for back A+/inCider issues is pretty poor, but I think I saw a modification which would make RENUMBER work in ProDOS. Anyone want to save me the time? >Morgan doesn't want just anyone changing his >system around. He did that to discourage sysops that really don't know >enough about BASIC (like me) from totally ruining their systems. Yeah, and its preventing me from being able to get the thing to work on my system. I know BASIC, but sequential numbering is a bit much. >I don't see >why that is a fault of ProLine. At least you CAN change it and even add >programs to it. I did, and my knowledge of BASIC is three years in Middle >School...how much easier does it get! With its current form, the only viable way is to use MD-BASIC. >Still a firm supporter of ProLine... >Amrit I'm definitely not trying to throw you off your support of ProLine. I just don't suggest it for someone who wants to start a BBS for the first time. ProLine isn't that system. If I wanted to code an AppleSoft BBS, I'd be using Sonic BBS right now. Right now I'm using ACOS. GBBS itself has been very modified to a barely recognizeable state. It is nice to be able to make self-modifying code. >==The Hindu Love Gods BBS - - - - Bloomfield Hills, MI - - - - 313/644-0481=== >ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | >UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
dvac@druwa.ATT.COM (Daniel Vachon) (06/01/91)
In article <1991May31.005845.22541@clark.edu>, apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: > apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com replies to: > > MD-Basic does require an Apple //gs, but ProLine does not. > Not clear yet. Is this to say that you can not modify ProLine at all, unless you have an Apple //gs to run MDBASIC? This would tend to dictate to me that you need a //gs and MDBASIC to run ProLine. I have never run a 100% Canned BBS program, I like to have certain things that make my system different from the rest. SO, the big Q.... Can you modify ProLine without MDBASIC (and a GS)? -Dan dvac@druwa.ATT.COM
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/01/91)
dvac@druwa.ATT.COM (Daniel Vachon) writes: >apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >>MD-Basic does require an Apple //gs, but ProLine does not. >Not clear yet. Is this to say that you can not modify ProLine at all, unless >you have an Apple //gs to run MDBASIC? This would tend to dictate to me that >you need a //gs and MDBASIC to run ProLine. I have never run a 100% Canned >BBS program, I like to have certain things that make my system different from >the rest. >SO, the big Q.... Can you modify ProLine without MDBASIC (and a GS)? Yes, you can modify ProLine without MD-BASIC, but it is rather difficult to do. You have to deal directly with AppleSoft programs. Emphasis on the plural. They appear to be all sequentially numbered (you know, 1, 2, 3, etc.) so you'll need some tools to make it easier. I'm going to try putting them in text files and editing them that way, then EXECing the diffs back. >-Dan dvac@druwa.ATT.COM Again, MD-BASIC is not required either to run or modify ProLine, but it is strongly suggested. -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
danield@pro-grouch.cts.com (Daniel Davidson) (06/02/91)
In-Reply-To: message from dvac@druwa.ATT.COM
>SO, the big Q.... Can you modify ProLine without MDBASIC (and a GS)?
Yes. You can add just about anything you want to it with out MD-Basic. I
wrote several of the Sysop Utilities for ProLine with out MD-Basic.
However, I hate Applesloth, so I do most of the additions now with MD-Basic.
Like I said, it is not nessary, But it does make it much easier to write
good programs. See my Review of MD-Basic that was in GS+ Magizine last year
for more info on just what MD-basic is, and what it does.
Daniel
(root@pro-grouch.cts.com)warren.e@pro-beagle.cts.com (Warren Ernst) (06/02/91)
In-Reply-To: message from greg@hoss.unl.edu Concerning editing AppleSoft and someone's problems with said language: Clearly someone doesn't have Program Writer, and if someone did, this would be a moot point. Program Writer is to AppleSoft as AppleWorks is to typing. Now, who is this someone anyway? -Warr /===============================++========================================\ | Warren Ernst || & This is called an ampersand. | | warren.e@pro-Beagle.cts.com || @ This is called an at sign. | | wernst@ucsd.edu || * This is called an asterisk. | | GEnie too || ] This is called a square bracket. | +-------------------------------+| ) This is called a parenthesis. | |1HOME:INVERSE2X=RND(1)*24+1:VTA|| # This is called a pound sign. | |BX:HTABX:?X;:HTAB26-X:?X;:GOTO2|| ^ This is called a little pointy thing.| \===============================++========================================/
tsouth@techbook.com (Todd South) (06/02/91)
In article <1991May31.193204.8485@unlinfo.unl.edu> greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) writes: >apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >>greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr) writes: >>>apollo@pro-hundugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: > >MD-BASIC, as you said in a later message, does indeed require a IIgs. If >you don't have one, you're stuck with editing AppleSoft code, which is >damn hard with how it comes out of the box. I should know, I've been >trying to get it to work on 2 800K disks, lacking a hard drive. Perhaps >the cost of one of those should be added to the list for ProLine's price. >Such an investment is not a necessity with GBBS "Pro" or METAL. I have >both resident in an 800K RAMdisk with one 800K drive which I swap when I >switch between them. To even go back to ProLine to do editing, I have to >archive my entire RAMdisk, copy one disk over, and then deal with >sequential AppleSoft, hoping I can find something I can do with it. I'm >about ready to put all BAS files into TXT so I can at least use ProTERM on >them. (Oh, that's in the RAMdisk too, and I still have plenty of space >left.) I have to take exception to this. If you are simply using the basic cli to edit Applesoft programs then that is your problem. As far as I remember, GBBS up to version 1.3j had NO editor whatsoever. Until ProTERM came out most people had to use AppleWriter and the switch back and forth was a pain in the ass. If you are going to edit Applesoft programs then shell out the $15 for a Beagle Bros. assistant program. I know you spent at least that much on a text editor for GBBS. Also, on the second point of the above paragraph, I know nothing about METAL but up until version 2.0 GBBS/ACOS still could not handle any message over 4K in length. All whining aside about ACOS not having arrays, a message system with a 4K limit is USELESS. The article you posted that I am responding to was 9.673 bytes by my count. GBBS could not even post the article. Proline has no limits other than the 16 meg limit on files of ProDOS. >I'm trying to figure out what the ModemWorks disk is for myself. You need >MD-BASIC if you want to edit the code nicely, otherwise you are stuck with >AppleSoft. Perhaps I should add that to run MD-BASIC you need a shell >like in APW or ORCA. Well, how much does ProgramWriter go for, nowadays? I don't think it costs that much. >>How much room do you want to run a BBS on!? 5 MB is hardly a big deal. If >>you're serious about running a BBS, then hell, you need a LOT more than just >>5 MB...that's an absurd point. >I've been running GBBS just fine off 2 800K disks. For awhile, I was >completely comfortable with the whole thing in a 1024K RAMdisk. A hard >drive is not something everyone has. Well, obviously you're not a warez board with a setup like that! :) Honestly, why would someone run a board with no realistic storage. If you were networked to even one feed from USENET you would have to purge most every message before even a few users would be able to read them. >>ProLine is still the BEST, and will be for a LONG while, >>networking BBS on the market for the Apple //! > >Watch out for METAL. Comes with networking, structured language included >(unlike MD-BASIC), and support via network as well. Hate to tell you, but Proline has all of these things and more, mate. We STILL get all of our updates for free. Morgan is very good about putting his spare time into the system, and he sure as hell doesn't count on it for a living. While I don't agree with everything Morgan has done in direction, you cannot show me another BBS author that provides the support that he does. And before you call me laddie I'd like to pass along that I started playing with these MOD/DEMs when 110 was vogue. >Hey, I'm not all against ProLine, it has some real good features. However >I have to weigh the pros and cons of each system. As I see it, Proline has one single con at this point. I won't bring it up as it may be changing in the near future. Sufficed to say, it is a great utility set for the intermediate to advanced user, and also is one helluva message/network base. >>About the renumbering program, if you really want to make serious changes to >>the system, you as a hopefully knowledgable programmer sure as hell better >>have a renumbering program! >I do. It's in DOS 3.3. Not very useful there. Doesn't like ProDOS much. >My filing system for back A+/inCider issues is pretty poor, but I think I >saw a modification which would make RENUMBER work in ProDOS. Anyone want >to save me the time? >>Morgan doesn't want just anyone changing his >>system around. He did that to discourage sysops that really don't know >>enough about BASIC (like me) from totally ruining their systems. >Yeah, and its preventing me from being able to get the thing to work on my >system. I know BASIC, but sequential numbering is a bit much. >>I don't see >>why that is a fault of ProLine. At least you CAN change it and even add >>programs to it. I did, and my knowledge of BASIC is three years in Middle >>School...how much easier does it get! > >With its current form, the only viable way is to use MD-BASIC. Wow, you are both wrong on this one. Have you ever noticed that Proline utilities and programs run rather fast? The reason for this was originally sequential numbering. Just because MD-BASIC numbers in a sequential fashion has nothing to do with pissing anyone off, making them convert renumbering programs (btw, the way to convert that is to rename the file commands to ProDOS ones, not that hard), or making them use MD-BASIC. Really, a person can still use ProgramWriter or another good Applesoft editor to write Proline utilities and alter current system programs. We even have conferences where we do nothing but tell each other about patches to make things work the way we want them. >>Still a firm supporter of ProLine... >>Amrit >I'm definitely not trying to throw you off your support of ProLine. I >just don't suggest it for someone who wants to start a BBS for the first >time. ProLine isn't that system. If I wanted to code an AppleSoft BBS, >I'd be using Sonic BBS right now. Right now I'm using ACOS. GBBS itself >has been very modified to a barely recognizeable state. It is nice to be >able to make self-modifying code. > >greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu Sonic? That would be a sick proposition. No real internal control at all! Seriously, you must not own a copy of Proline to even begin to compare it to GBBS. The only reason that GBBS is around today is some mystic personage a while back (we like to call him the genius of Miami) wrote a good transfer section for GBBS and has followed through with protocols that make it a good program to run pirate warez boards off of. Without the pirate support base I honestly don't feel that GBBS would have the following it does today. There is not one thing done in GBBS (excluding protocols) that is not easily repoduced and done better from within Proline. The ONLY reason that MD-BASIC came into existance is for programming Applesoft from a more freeform atmosphere. It had nothing to do with Proline, IMHO. I purchased Proline in early 1987 and have been programming my own stuff for it without the use of MD-BASIC since the first week it arrived in the mail. Todd... -- -- tsouth@techbook.COM ...!{tektronix!nosun,uunet}techbook!tsouth Public Access UNIX at (503) 644-8135 (1200/2400) Voice: +1 503 646-8257 Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) (06/02/91)
In article <1991May31.005845.22541@clark.edu>, apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >> apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com writes from a reply:) >> >> MD-Basic does require an Apple //gs, but ProLine does not. >> >Not clear yet. Is this to say that you can not modify ProLine at all, unless >you have an Apple //gs to run MDBASIC? This would tend to dictate to me that >you need a //gs and MDBASIC to run ProLine. I have never run a 100% Canned >BBS program, I like to have certain things that make my system different from >the rest. > >SO, the big Q.... Can you modify ProLine without MDBASIC (and a GS)? > >-Dan dvac@druwa.ATT.COM Ok...first of all, I don't know how I did it, but I made a small, real SMALL, moderation to a ProLine program. I don't have MD-BASIC, but I think ProLine uses it?. I probably was just using AppleSoft and it is hell to program. That's not what I was trying to say. If you want to program efficiently, then ok, why don't you put the price in for MD-BASIC. You don't have to buy ProLine WITH MD-BASIC...buy ProLine now and in about 4 months, or so, when you have some more money, buy yourself a copy of MD-BASIC. Let's go people, but really, ProLine is a MUCH better program than GBBS. If you don't want to program ProLine, there are plenty of people on the network that do, and have MD-BASIC, and did I ever say this...listen up...: YOU GET ALL THE PROLINE UPDATES OVER THE PHONE LINES, VIA MODEMS, FOR ABSOLUTELY NO MONEY EXECPT WHAT THE PHONE CALL COSTS YOU! Morgan puts out an update for ProLine about once every three-four months. Right now, we're about due for one, and everyone's being very patient and Morgan is really nice about it. We don't bug the hell out of him for it, he just surprises us with it one day and everyone has something to talk about in the sysop only networked feeds for a while with questions and answers about the new stuff the update has. You ask a question of almost anything and the next thing you know, you have an answer in your mailbox...no you have 10 answers in your mailbox and you don't know who to thank. That's support...not some 30 site link up, but well over 90 ProLine only, then you can count all the brigdes we have here, and you're talking about thousands (am I going too far here) of sites! ProLine is a far superior BBS program than anything OUT THERE NOW. I have yet to see GBBS surpass it. If you buy MD-BASIC and you have a //gs, then ProLine is the BEST BBS program. If you have a //e, and no MD-BASIC, programming is hell, and you may not want to do it. But, with the network and the help other sysops give, you can get things from all over. Somewhat clearer? Amrit ==The Hindu Love Gods BBS - - - - Bloomfield Hills, MI - - - - 313/644-0481=== ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | ==============================================================================
geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Chris Moylan) (06/03/91)
>SO, the big Q.... Can you modify ProLine without MDBASIC (and a GS)?
You bet you can! I have done it many times on pro-hindugods, both remotely
and at the console, but it requires a renumbering program for serious
changes. MD-BASIC is just an easier way to edit the files, and it comes with
pre-made subroutines and such, I think. Also, many of the programs ARE
numbered by 10's , not ALL are sequential. If you don't have MD-BASIC, get a
hold of a ProDOS renumbering program, and edit them in AppleSoft, which is
not as difficult as everyone makes it sound, especially if you make it into a
text file. All this can be done on any Apple which can run ProDOS.
Chris
Chris Moylan | ProLine: geniusman@pro-hindugods
CoSysop: Hindu Love Gods BBS | Internet: geniusman@pro-hindugods.cts.com
313/644-0481 | UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman
300-9600 bps, v.32/v.42/v.42bis | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!geniusman@nosc.milgreg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/03/91)
tsouth@techbook.com (Todd South) writes: >greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) writes: >>apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >>MD-BASIC, as you said in a later message, does indeed require a IIgs. If >>you don't have one, you're stuck with editing AppleSoft code, which is >>damn hard with how it comes out of the box. I should know, I've been >>trying to get it to work on 2 800K disks, lacking a hard drive. Perhaps >>the cost of one of those should be added to the list for ProLine's price. >>Such an investment is not a necessity with GBBS "Pro" or METAL. I have >>both resident in an 800K RAMdisk with one 800K drive which I swap when I >>switch between them. To even go back to ProLine to do editing, I have to >>archive my entire RAMdisk, copy one disk over, and then deal with >>sequential AppleSoft, hoping I can find something I can do with it. I'm >>about ready to put all BAS files into TXT so I can at least use ProTERM on >>them. (Oh, that's in the RAMdisk too, and I still have plenty of space >>left.) >I have to take exception to this. If you are simply using the basic >cli to edit Applesoft programs then that is your problem. As far as >I remember, GBBS up to version 1.3j had NO editor whatsoever. A GBBS without an editor wouldn't be a BBS, since you don't have any way to enter messages. You must be in error. On all versions I'm familiar with, the EDIT() series of commands and functions have existed. >Until >ProTERM came out most people had to use AppleWriter and the switch >back and forth was a pain in the ass. Before I had ProTERM, I used FreeWriter, which seemed designed for it with its habit of being 1 character in from the leftmost column. >If you are going to edit Applesoft >programs then shell out the $15 for a Beagle Bros. assistant program. Ah, something else to add to the price of ProLine then, eh? >I know you spent at least that much on a text editor for GBBS. FreeWriter was, as its name implies, free. >Also, on the second point of the above paragraph, I know nothing about >METAL but up until version 2.0 GBBS/ACOS still could not handle any >message over 4K in length. The editor is limited to 4K. This exists in the version I run, v2.11. Last time I left a message on a METAL system, it said I had over 1 MB of free space in the full-screen editor. >All whining aside about ACOS not having >arrays, a message system with a 4K limit is USELESS. The article you >posted that I am responding to was 9.673 bytes by my count. GBBS >could not even post the article. I do believe you mean K, not bytes. I've never posted a message with a fractional character. :-) Meanwhile, other systems in the area are surviving quite well with limits of 50 lines of 80 columns. One doesn't always >include on a normal BBS (unless it happens to be another FidoNET system) or other networking beast. >Proline has no limits other than >the 16 meg limit on files of ProDOS. There exist programs which bypass the ACOS limit. Only a few people around here find themselves writing messages beyond that limit. A system of linked messages is being worked on by myself to get rid of things like "continued next message". Sure would help with my reformatter, which prints all messages at the reader's screen width. (Not yet released.) >>You need >>MD-BASIC if you want to edit the code nicely, otherwise you are stuck with >>AppleSoft. Perhaps I should add that to run MD-BASIC you need a shell >>like in APW or ORCA. >Well, how much does ProgramWriter go for, nowadays? I don't think it >costs that much. Again, you are adding to the cost. I have a program that is less than 4K that allows me to edit segments online in ACOS. Another that allows editing of files larger than 4K, all without loss of carrier. Very useful for editing the system from remote. And all without stepping back to edit sequentially numbered AppleSoft online. >>>How much room do you want to run a BBS on!? 5 MB is hardly a big deal. If >>>you're serious about running a BBS, then hell, you need a LOT more than just >>>5 MB...that's an absurd point. >>I've been running GBBS just fine off 2 800K disks. For awhile, I was >>completely comfortable with the whole thing in a 1024K RAMdisk. A hard >>drive is not something everyone has. >Well, obviously you're not a warez board with a setup like that! :) I was told from Morgan that if I wanted to run a system with lots of files for download, then ProLine wasn't the one for me. This implies to me that ProLine isn't the best system for files. This again came from the author, and he should know, right? >Honestly, why would someone run a board with no realistic storage. >If you were networked to even one feed from USENET you would have to >purge most every message before even a few users would be able to >read them. NETWORKING IS NOT NECESSARY TO RUN A BBS! I run with 9 message bases, and have had no conflicts yet, all in a 1600K storage configuration. >>>ProLine is still the BEST, and will be for a LONG while, >>>networking BBS on the market for the Apple //! >>Watch out for METAL. Comes with networking, structured language included >>(unlike MD-BASIC), and support via network as well. >Hate to tell you, but Proline has all of these things and more, mate. >We STILL get all of our updates for free. Updates are free for METAL and ACOS too. All you pay for is the call. >Morgan is very good about >putting his spare time into the system, and he sure as hell doesn't >count on it for a living. While I don't agree with everything Morgan >has done in direction, you cannot show me another BBS author that >provides the support that he does. >And before you call me laddie >I'd like to pass along that I started playing with these MOD/DEMs >when 110 was vogue. Since this "laddie" comment is out of context, I'd like to explain that my "laddie" comment was in response to a statement saying ProLine had the best ProLine specific network. Such a statement is meaningless, don't you think? I guess I'm the only one who say the humor. I guess you are older than I, since I started with 300 bps with a Micromodem II hooked up to slot 4 of a //e. (That was the recommended slot at the time, if slot 3 was taken.) Racked up a pretty high phone bill at that school. >>Hey, I'm not all against ProLine, it has some real good features. However >>I have to weigh the pros and cons of each system. >As I see it, Proline has one single con at this point. I won't bring >it up as it may be changing in the near future. Yeah, I thought I could have said something insulting earlier, that it doesn't have Ymodem, while others had it for a long time, and now have Zmodem. Plus, I understand that these protocols will be adding a large amount to the cost of ProLine, plus possibly a fee to upgrade to it, due to all the work put into it. Other limitations: (1) Requires a larger investment in hardware (hard drive, IIgs to get the same level of programming ease) (2) Requires a larger investment in software (MD-BASIC to easily edit code, AppleSoft compiler to speed up AppleSoft or accellerator, APW or ORCA to use MD-BASIC) Others? Read some of the older messages. >Sufficed to say, >it is a great utility set for the intermediate to advanced user, and >also is one helluva message/network base. Yeah. I guess you require experience with a simpler BBS program then, since you don't list beginning user. ProLine isn't the most user-friendly system. >Have you ever noticed that Proline >utilities and programs run rather fast? The reason for this was >originally sequential numbering. I understand the speed increase. >Just because MD-BASIC numbers in a >sequential fashion has nothing to do with pissing anyone off, Ah, so increased anger from people who want to make changes is just a byproduct of the compiler. Wonderful. >making them >convert renumbering programs (btw, the way to convert that is to rename >the file commands to ProDOS ones, not that hard), I see you have no knowledge of the renumber program from DOS 3.3. It is an ampersand utility, and does not convert to ProDOS and still run. I'm not going to dig into ML for it. Instead, I'll grab one off of an FTP site that I was pointed to. >or making them use >MD-BASIC. Really, a person can still use ProgramWriter or another >good Applesoft editor to write Proline utilities and alter current >system programs. Ah, yet another external routine required, pushing up the price. >We even have conferences where we do nothing but tell >each other about patches to make things work the way we want them. GBBS/ACOS has its support systems as well. Even an Internet mailing list! >>>Still a firm supporter of ProLine... >>>Amrit >>I'm definitely not trying to throw you off your support of ProLine. I >>just don't suggest it for someone who wants to start a BBS for the first >>time. ProLine isn't that system. If I wanted to code an AppleSoft BBS, >>I'd be using Sonic BBS right now. Right now I'm using ACOS. GBBS itself >>has been very modified to a barely recognizeable state. It is nice to be >>able to make self-modifying code. >Sonic? That would be a sick proposition. No real internal control >at all! >Seriously, you must not own a copy of Proline to even begin to compare >it to GBBS. Bzzz, wrong answer. It's sitting on the desk right behind me. Proof? Page 128, paragraph 3, sentence one: |Using Next automatically marks the current message for deletion, |and then proceeds to display the next message. (I use | to indicate text included from an outside source.) >The only reason that GBBS is around today is some mystic >personage a while back (we like to call him the genius of Miami) wrote >a good transfer section for GBBS and has followed through with protocols >that make it a good program to run pirate warez boards off of. Without >the pirate support base I honestly don't feel that GBBS would have the >following it does today. I have never run a pirate system. I got my liking for GBBS from the few systems I saw here in Lincoln during a summer. I've been using it ever since. >There is not one thing done in GBBS (excluding >protocols) that is not easily repoduced and done better from within >Proline. I have stuff that would not be possible, or if so, definitely not possible to be done better. Ability to code in ACOS online is one. Can you code in MD-BASIC online? >The ONLY reason that MD-BASIC came into existance is for >programming Applesoft from a more freeform atmosphere. It had nothing >to do with Proline, IMHO. I purchased Proline in early 1987 and have >been programming my own stuff for it without the use of MD-BASIC since >the first week it arrived in the mail. Key phrase is "programming my own stuff for it". What about modifying the code itself, or do you still run using the same system core? It is much easier to write one's own code than to modify other's. However creating a new core program from scratch is not an option. One thing GBBS has is a printing of the whole source code in the manual. Since it is well contained in only 4 files, this makes it very manageable, and still very powerful. It encourages modification, addition of fast ML externals, and creation of new code in both senses. METAL goes a step further of being able to include assembly code in the source file, which is compiled by the same program that runs it. >Todd... >tsouth@techbook.COM ...!{tektronix!nosun,uunet}techbook!tsouth -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/03/91)
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >dvac@druwa.ATT.COM (Dan) writes: >>apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >>>MD-Basic does require an Apple //gs, but ProLine does not. >>Not clear yet. Is this to say that you can not modify ProLine at all, unless >>you have an Apple //gs to run MDBASIC? This would tend to dictate to me that >>you need a //gs and MDBASIC to run ProLine. I have never run a 100% Canned >>BBS program, I like to have certain things that make my system different from >>the rest. >> >>SO, the big Q.... Can you modify ProLine without MDBASIC (and a GS)? As I said, yes, but it is damn difficult. >Ok...first of all, I don't know how I did it, but I made a small, real SMALL, >moderation to a ProLine program. I don't have MD-BASIC, but I think ProLine >uses it?. I probably was just using AppleSoft and it is hell to program. >That's not what I was trying to say. If you want to program efficiently, >then ok, why don't you put the price in for MD-BASIC. Dan implies that he doesn't have a IIgs. Therefore, he has a good reason not for putting the price in for MD-BASIC. And remember it ads a list price of $49.95 to the system, even if you do have a IIgs. >You don't have to buy >ProLine WITH MD-BASIC...buy ProLine now and in about 4 months, or so, when >you have some more money, buy yourself a copy of MD-BASIC. Still, that means a larger investment, when ACOS is already inseperable from GBBS, and METAL is inseparable from Future Visions. >Let's go people, >but really, ProLine is a MUCH better program than GBBS. If you don't want to >program ProLine, there are plenty of people on the network that do, and have >MD-BASIC, and did I ever say this...listen up...: > YOU GET ALL THE PROLINE UPDATES OVER THE PHONE LINES, VIA MODEMS, FOR >ABSOLUTELY NO MONEY EXECPT WHAT THE PHONE CALL COSTS YOU! You get the same thing, updates, over phone lines, via modems (what, dictate the code?) except for the cost of the call. And using faster protocols. > Morgan puts out an update for ProLine about once every three-four >months. Right now, we're about due for one, and everyone's being very >patient and Morgan is really nice about it. We don't bug the hell out of him >for it, he just surprises us with it one day and everyone has something to >talk about in the sysop only networked feeds for a while with questions and >answers about the new stuff the update has. Does it really need to be updated that often? Plus, since it is scheduled, I guess the only surprise is of what the update entails. >You ask a question of almost >anything and the next thing you know, you have an answer in your mailbox...no >you have 10 answers in your mailbox and you don't know who to thank. That's >support...not some 30 site link up, but well over 90 ProLine only, then you >can count all the brigdes we have here, and you're talking about thousands >(am I going too far here) of sites! ProLine is a far superior BBS program >than anything OUT THERE NOW. I have yet to see GBBS surpass it. If you buy >MD-BASIC and you have a //gs, then ProLine is the BEST BBS program. Effectively adding the cost of MD-BASIC and difference in cost between a //e and a //gs into the $195.50 cost of ProLine. Oh, and a HD with 5 MB, minimum. For a person who wants to run a hobby system, ProLine is not a viable alternative. Plus the requirements line for MD-BASIC from the MDGroup Product Guide, "Needs: IIGS and GS/OS. ORCA/M or other development shell is optional." Yet it doesn't tell you in the manual how to use it without the "optional" development shell. >If you >have a //e, and no MD-BASIC, programming is hell, and you may not want to do >it. But, with the network and the help other sysops give, you can get things >from all over. Networking should not and is not necessary for a BBS. Even in the 90's. StarCruiser Epsilon of Lincoln, NE is still one of the most popular systems here. It isn't even networked. Even against competition between other networked IBM systems and a 10-node chat system, that ACOS system (the GBBS code has gone through so many modifications you can't really call it GBBS anymore) is still going strong. >Somewhat clearer? I feel like bringing out the "GBBS Propaganda" file, or the list of installed GBBS systems with support available provided with the system from L&L Productions. >Amrit >ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | >UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
mikeu@pro-magic.cts.com.mu.edu (06/03/91)
In-Reply-To: message from dvac@druwa.ATT.COM
Even though the "source code" for Proline is written in MD-Basic, it
"compiles" into true Applesoft programs that can be modified as you wish.
I have made several changes to allow me to use various features of my
system the way I want them.
Be aware though, that in making modifications, you lose configuration
control which is critical when Morgan Davis provides his periodic updates
to the software (usually quarterly.) Any changes you make would have to be
made in the modified software as well and might have to be redesigned each
time you get an update.
Also, MD-Basic produces some lines that are longer than is legal in
Applesoft, making editing, even with a Basic program line editor,
impossible. His program lines are only 1 number apart, requiring inventive
programming to put in some of the changes you might desire.
Not impossible, just challangeing.
The bbs front end is provided by a menuing program called PLUSH (Proline
Users SHell.) This menu can be modified as you like to completely change
the look and feel of your bbs screens and menus. A lot of systems use this
feature to modify their Prolines without any configuration control
problems.
The foundation of Proline is a Unix-like shell called "csh" and this too
allows the writing of script files which can change the look and feel of
your system.
So, all in all, without any Basic program modifications, you can play
around with a Proline system to your hearts content.
------------------------------<<<Mike Ungerman>>>----------------------------
Proline: mikeu@pro-magic
Internet: crash!pnet01!mikeu@pro-magic.cts.com
UUCP: (..uunet!tarpit!bilver!pro-magic!mikeu)
Arpa: crash!pnet01!pro-magic!mikeu@nosc.mil
Voice: 407-366-5840 | Prodigy: JSNP58A | Compuserve: 71326,31greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/04/91)
** Sender Unknown ** writes: Something went bonkers... >I have made several changes to allow me to use various features of my >system the way I want them. I love to see people configuring programs for their own needs. A system should always contain a bit of the sysop's personality. >Be aware though, that in making modifications, you lose configuration >control which is critical when Morgan Davis provides his periodic updates >to the software (usually quarterly.) Any changes you make would have to be >made in the modified software as well and might have to be redesigned each >time you get an update. True. An isolated system has more creative control than a networked system. Again a reason why I don't like networked bulletin boards where you get official patches which would obsolete your own. Especially when the system attempts to automatically implement the patches for you this could be a major problem. >Also, MD-Basic produces some lines that are longer than is legal in >Applesoft, making editing, even with a Basic program line editor, >impossible. His program lines are only 1 number apart, requiring inventive >programming to put in some of the changes you might desire. >Not impossible, just challangeing. In fact, the variable name "FN" is perfectly legal in AppleSoft. However, if you edit a line with that variable in it without a tool which knows the difference, you'll get it retokenized as the part of the DEF FN statement. Token-level programming gets past this. I don't know if MD-BASIC does this, or uses an alternate. Similar problems occur with programs which have part of their code garbled intentionally, since it is actual byte data stored there. Such programs often appear in magazines which say it prints a secret message, but when you enter them, they get parsed differently. Again, this is only peripherally related. >The bbs front end is provided by a menuing program called PLUSH (Proline >Users SHell.) This menu can be modified as you like to completely change >the look and feel of your bbs screens and menus. A lot of systems use this >feature to modify their Prolines without any configuration control >problems. Menus are look. Code is feel. If all one changes is menus, one can still get around if one is familiar with the software. It is the same core file. Very little of my ACOS-based system still contains GBBS "Pro" code. ProLine makes the assumption that everything is already what you want/need. I can do without "cute" things like "On This Day" and "fortune" programs. I had to delete the first one to just get it to fit inside a 1024K RAMdisk. >The foundation of Proline is a Unix-like shell called "csh" and this too >allows the writing of script files which can change the look and feel of >your system. So we start implementing another language. Interpreted through BASIC yet. >So, all in all, without any Basic program modifications, you can play >around with a Proline system to your hearts content. Not me. Without extensive modifications I can barely get anything done with it. One thing I love about METAL and ACOS is that you can split it among several physical drives and it doesn't care. ><<<Mike Ungerman>>> >Proline: mikeu@pro-magic >Internet: crash!pnet01!mikeu@pro-magic.cts.com >UUCP: (..uunet!tarpit!bilver!pro-magic!mikeu) >Arpa: crash!pnet01!pro-magic!mikeu@nosc.mil >Voice: 407-366-5840 | Prodigy: JSNP58A | Compuserve: 71326,31 -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
marekp@pnet91.cts.com (Marek Pawlowski) (06/04/91)
I thought I might add my two cents worth in here. MD-BASIC, generates optimized Applesoft code, meaning that you usually wouldn't write something like that on your own. It is NOT "damn hard" or "impossible" to modify code, or create some new stuff. It would be if you were incompetent of handling Applesoft Basic. On top of that, updates don't always mean fixing of bugs, there are always new "mods" or commands, or improvements being done on the ProLine system, which makes it the most efficient, and absolutely exciting BBS software there is around. GBBS is a pathetic excuse for a BBS. Morgan is more than willing to spend time to answer any questions - he knows ProLine inside-out - he also happens to be a damn nice guy. /* Marek Pawlowski, President, Intelligent Twist Software, 250 Harding */ /* Blvd., PO BOX 32017, Richmond Hill, Ontario, L4C 9M7, CANADA. */ /* marekp@gnu.ai.mit.edu, marekp@cerf.net, marekp@pnet91.cts.com, */ /* marekp@generic.uucp, Voice: (416) 884-4501 4-8pm Toronto time */ /* "F U cn rd dis U mst Uz Unix" - ericmcg@pnet91.cts.com */
daveharv@pro-novapple.cts.com (Dave Harvey-SysAdmin) (06/04/91)
In-Reply-To: message from apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com >You do NOT need all the programs listed above for ProLine to work. You buy >ProLine from Programs Plus for $95 and you are all set to go. You don't NEED >ModemWorks or MD-BASIC for ProLine to run. I don't own either one and I >bought ProLine from Programs Plus for $95 and am running on it right now... Don't forget that when you bought the ProLine software you got ModemWorks. What you didn't get is the manual for ModemWorks. The actual ModemWorks is included on the disks that are furnished with ProLine software. In the past, the free updates to the Proline software has often revisions to ModemWorks as well. proline: pro-novapple!daveharv | uucp: crash!pnet01!pro-novapple!daveharv | Pro-novapple BBS arpa: crash!pnet01!pro-novapple!daveharv@nosc.mil | 300/1200/2400/9600 Baud Internet: daveharv@pro-novapple.cts.com | 703-671-0416 | Northern Virginia Apple Users Group | P.O. Box 8211, Falls Church, VA 22041 |
daveharv@pro-novapple.cts.com (Dave Harvey-SysAdmin) (06/04/91)
-Reply-To: message from dvac@druwa.ATT.COM >SO, the big Q.... Can you modify ProLine without MDBASIC (and a GS)? >-Dan dvac@druwa.ATT.COM Yes, you can modify ProLine without MDBASIC if you have a renumbering program. The programs that are used by Proline are still Applesoft but are compessed into sequentical line numbers and depending on what you want to change in a particular program MIGHT require renumbering. Many mods can be made in how the system runs without modifying any of the programs but rather using executable scripts (command files) to make it do what you want (a la UNIX). I don't have MDBASIC, but I still manage to make mods to my Proline system. proline: pro-novapple!daveharv | uucp: crash!pnet01!pro-novapple!daveharv | Pro-novapple BBS arpa: crash!pnet01!pro-novapple!daveharv@nosc.mil | 300/1200/2400/9600 Baud Internet: daveharv@pro-novapple.cts.com | 703-671-0416 | Northern Virginia Apple Users Group | P.O. Box 8211, Falls Church, VA 22041 |
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/05/91)
marekp@pnet91.cts.com (Marek Pawlowski) writes: >MD-BASIC, generates optimized Applesoft code, meaning that you usually >wouldn't write something like that on your own. It is NOT "damn hard" or >"impossible" to modify code, or create some new stuff. Certainly not, if you are doing the modifications with MD-BASIC. >It would be if you >were incompetent of handling Applesoft Basic. We're not dealing with just AppleSoft here. We have to learn all these ampersand additions to the language. ACOS at least has everything coded straightforward. >On top of that, updates don't always mean fixing of bugs, there are always new >"mods" or commands, or improvements being done on the ProLine system, which >makes it the most efficient, and absolutely exciting BBS software there is >around. An the most invariable in format between systems, it would seem. >GBBS is a pathetic excuse for a BBS. Which GBBS are you referring to? There is from GBBS ][ to GBBS "Pro". This is starting to get opinionated, and not a discussion on the merits (and demerits) of each system. GBBS "Pro" comes in 4 source segments, which are very manageable to use, as opposed to ProLine's multitude of files stuck in many places in the system. Its structure encourages change, while ProLine's encourages staying the same, relying on upgrades from the official source, else your modifications will be incompatible with the new enhancements. To get the same ease of coding in ProLine as you get standard with ACOS you need to purchase MD-BASIC, a //gs, and a development shell like ORCA or APW (true, it lists it as optional, but doesn't tell you how to use it without it). METAL, an improvement on ACOS by someone else lists at less than the sale prices given for ProLine, and comes with more than GBBS "Pro" does. >Morgan is more than willing to spend time to answer any questions - he knows >ProLine inside-out - he also happens to be a damn nice guy. Well so far I haven't got much help getting it to run on my system. Anyone know what areas in the program I need to change to run it on multiple drives instead of just one? >/* Marek Pawlowski, President, Intelligent Twist Software, 250 Harding */ >/* marekp@gnu.ai.mit.edu, marekp@cerf.net, marekp@pnet91.cts.com, */ >/* marekp@generic.uucp, Voice: (416) 884-4501 4-8pm Toronto time */ >/* "F U cn rd dis U mst Uz Unix" - ericmcg@pnet91.cts.com */ -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
dvac@druwa.ATT.COM (Daniel Vachon) (06/05/91)
In article <15121.apple.net2@pro-grouch>, danield@pro-grouch.cts.com (Daniel Davidson) writes: > In-Reply-To: message from dvac@druwa.ATT.COM > >SO, the big Q.... Can you modify ProLine without MDBASIC (and a GS)? > > Like I said, it is not nessary, But it does make it much easier to write > good programs. See my Review of MD-Basic that was in GS+ Magizine last year > for more info on just what MD-basic is, and what it does. What it comes down to is this. The Apple // is heading down the tubes. The only thing my Apple //e has done for the last three years is run a BBS. For the 5 years before that it was used for a BBS, games, word processing, etc... The Apple // line is doomed (IMHO). I have given Apple // support since I got my first Apple ][+ in 1982. Now, I don't think I would take an Apple //gs if you gave it to me. They are overpriced for what you get, the software market is dying for it, and it is grossly out of date. The Mac line is too precious to Apple and they are too worried about getting a low cost powerhouse PC that can do things close to the Mac. I will most likely always run a BBS on the //e because you can't sell the things for hardly anything anymore, and it runs plenty fast enough for a BBS (single line systems only). I am using an old Apple ][+ for MIDI because the computer was $50, and the MIDI interface was $50. Thats how much it costs for the MIDI interface alone on the Mac. I use an old Franklin in my Bar-room to keep score for dart games (cricket, ttt, etc) I will openly admit that my next purchase of a PC will not be an Apple (// or Mac). This is not a slam on Apple by any means, it is just my opinion about the //gs and Apple's Marketing direction. 2 years ago, 95% of the users on my BBS were Apple ][+/e/c/gs users. Now, about 20% are.... 50% are IBM, 15% are Mac, and the rest is asstd other PC's. But when I can get a 386 w/SVGA, 40 Meg Drive, etc.. for around $1300, and an Apple //gs w/monitor floppy for about the same price..... The decision is easy.... Later -Dan (moving on.....) DISKLAYMOR : These opinions are mine, so keepayu handsoff!
cchen@xcluud.sccsi.com (Conway Chen) (06/06/91)
marekp@pnet91.cts.com (Marek Pawlowski) writes: > around. GBBS is a pathetic excuse for a BBS. > Yes, agreed. GBBS alone in vanilla form is a pathetic excuse, but then again, it was never really meant to be run that way. At mods and other segs and it can be as able bodied as some of the other BBS programs out there. -- Conway Chen cchen@xcluud.sccsi.com uunet!nuchat!xcluud!cchen
mdavis@pro-sol.cts.com (Morgan Davis) (06/07/91)
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) wrote: } >Morgan is more than willing to spend time to answer any questions - he } >knows ProLine inside-out - he also happens to be a damn nice guy. } } Well so far I haven't got much help getting it to run on my system. What do you want me to do, buy you a hard drive, too? I've remained silent to see where this thread would lead, but this comment of yours motivated me to speak up, as your messages have been completely unsatisfactory to the readers of this newsgroup. Recall, you were *given* the software to try on the premise that you'd run it for a few weeks and give it your honest evaluation. Since you don't even have the hardware to use it properly, you have wasted our time by moaning and groaning about YOUR problem. You also received free copies of MD-BASIC and ModemWorks as well, to show you that professional tools can make a big difference, and you've not given them a fair evaluation, proven by your flagrantly erroneous comments about all three products. At first (in alt.bbs) you seemed to be the sort who enjoys working with what you feel is the best software. Since you wrote that you'd never seen a ProLine before, I offered to send you a copy for free--a bold move by anyone's standards. You were free to report whatever you felt about it--positive or negative. However, since you can't even run the software, you have absolutely no ground in making any comments about it at all! Yet, you've been offering your unsolicited diatribes as if you actually use ProLine. The net demands better of you than that. You've made many judgements about what you consider to be the best BBS for the first time and seasoned sysop (and all roads lead to GBBS). You claim that ProLine is too difficult for you to modify, thus is isn't a good choice for anyone. Then you claim that GBBS would be better because it allows for easy modification. I can see why this would be so important to you, as has been so clearly described by yourself and many on this group, because GBBS cannot be USED without a lot of fixing out of the box. A good BBS for first time sysops? Your myopic perspective of what a new sysop wants in a BBS is fuzzy. If you want to be a fixer, then by all means buy yourself a fixer-upper. I don't think it is good for anyone who simply wants to *run* a BBS. ProLine is not that kind of product. When you buy and run a ProLine, it works well, right out of the box. It provides the flexibility to be modified *without* having to do any programming at all. Should you want to change the software using the best tools available, we provide these *and* expert technical support at *your* option. The fact is, Greg, until you get a hard drive, you can't run ProLine. Therefore, all of your statements about it should be regarded as highly unfounded from the readers on this newsgroup. I fulfilled my end of the agreement by allowing you to evaluate the software at no charge to you. Since you cannot uphold your end, please cease all commentary on this subject NOW. I would also appreciate your sending it all back so that someone can use it and evaluate it fairly. You'll find our address on the back cover of the ProLine manual. --Morgan Davis UUCP: crash!pro-sol!mdavis AOL, BIX: mdavis ARPA: crash!pro-sol!mdavis@nosc.mil GEnie: m.davis42 INET: mdavis@pro-sol.cts.com ProLine: mdavis@pro-sol
marekp@pnet91.cts.com (Marek Pawlowski) (06/07/91)
All the Ampersand additions are fully documented with Modemworks/Amperworks. There is no problem in deciphering the output code of MD-BASIC. At least I have no problems. As to setting up you ProLine system. If you have bought a copy, then you should have no problems - call Morgan, and ask. However, if you are a scum sucking orange peel eating armpit of a goat aryan army communist bastard that pirates software, especially ProLine, then you should DELETE your copy, and BUY it from Morgan. /* Marek Pawlowski, President, Intelligent Twist Software, 250 Harding */ /* Blvd., PO BOX 32017, Richmond Hill, Ontario, L4C 9M7, CANADA. */ /* marekp@gnu.ai.mit.edu, marekp@cerf.net, marekp@pnet91.cts.com, */ /* marekp@generic.uucp, Voice: (416) 884-4501 4-8pm Toronto time */ /* "F U cn rd dis U mst Uz Unix" - ericmcg@pnet91.cts.com */
sb@pnet91.cts.com (Stephen Brown) (06/07/91)
dvac@druwa.ATT.COM (Daniel Vachon) writes: >In article <15121.apple.net2@pro-grouch>, danield@pro-grouch.cts.com (Daniel Davidson) writes: >> In-Reply-To: message from dvac@druwa.ATT.COM >> >SO, the big Q.... Can you modify ProLine without MDBASIC (and a GS)? >> >> Like I said, it is not nessary, But it does make it much easier to write >> good programs. See my Review of MD-Basic that was in GS+ Magizine last year >> for more info on just what MD-basic is, and what it does. > >What it comes down to is this. The Apple // is heading down the tubes. The >only thing my Apple //e has done for the last three years is run a BBS. For >the 5 years before that it was used for a BBS, games, word processing, etc... [cut here] This is the support YOU are giving your Apple II. This has little difference to what others are doing with theirs. I happen to know of many IIe's which are being used for a wide multitude of applications. My own is souped up modestly (1 meg ram + 10 mhz accelerator) and is a powerhouse when I use it. Whether the Apple II is "heading down the tubes" or not, your argument (as evidence to make this point) is unconvincing. +---------------------------------------------------------+ | Stephen Brown Toronto, Canada | | Internet: sb@pnet91.cts.com UUCP: utzoo!pnet91!sb | +---------------------------------------------------------+ | Apple II Forever !!! | +---------------------------------------------------------+ | Like my new .signature. ? Too bad. | +---------------------------------------------------------+
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) (06/08/91)
mdavis@pro-sol.cts.com (Morgan Davis) writes: >greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) wrote: >>@ () writes: >>>Morgan is more than willing to spend time to answer any questions - he >>>knows ProLine inside-out - he also happens to be a damn nice guy. >>Well so far I haven't got much help getting it to run on my system. >What do you want me to do, buy you a hard drive, too? No, just some tips on how to get it to work under the current limitation. Two 800K disks should be configurable for a network-less system. Recall that I have posted messages saying that one should be told of the requirements of a BBS, including both hardware and software requirements. I was able to squeeze it into a 1024K RAMdisk (losing some files like extra modem drivers and other such) and run it, but in a very limited sense. If I can just get it to work right on 2 800K disks, I'm certain that I can give a better recommendation. >GBBS cannot be USED without a lot of fixing out of the box. L&L Support is practically `Stock GBBS "Pro"', and it is running rather well. Any bugs are quickly pointed out by other sysops. ACOS bugs I found they come mainly from running with the wrong ProDOS. I've mentioned that before. "A lot of fixing" is not true. My system was running stock for a long time before it went online. Only when I saw what others have done did I start making major changes, which weren't difficult. I now have my current system, containing some modifications that are unique to my system, and couldn't exist in a networked system, for various reasons. >Should you want to change the software using the best tools available, we >provide these *and* expert technical support at *your* option. As the suggestion on the registration card reads, I hope you can put together an 8-bit MD-BASIC, as a standalone program or, even better, able to be run from remote. If that is added, my opinion of ProLine will increase immensely! >The fact is, Greg, until you get a hard drive, you can't run ProLine. My experience with it in a 1 MB /RAM5 begs to differ. Right now I'm not interested in running a FULL ProLine, complete with networking. >UUCP: crash!pro-sol!mdavis AOL, BIX: mdavis >ARPA: crash!pro-sol!mdavis@nosc.mil GEnie: m.davis42 >INET: mdavis@pro-sol.cts.com ProLine: mdavis@pro-sol -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) (06/08/91)
marekp@pnet91.cts.com writes: >should have no problems - call Morgan, and ask. However, if you are a scum >sucking orange peel eating armpit of a goat aryan army communist bastard that >pirates software, especially ProLine, then you should DELETE your copy, and >BUY it from Morgan. YEAH! I LIKE it! :) Amrit ==The Hindu Love Gods BBS - - - - Bloomfield Hills, MI - - - - 313/644-0481=== ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | | :) :-) 8-) -:) :-() :-{ :-( {:-( }-:O *-:) Got anymore? | | ==============================================================================
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Life...) (06/09/91)
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >marekp@pnet91.cts.com writes: >>should have no problems - call Morgan, and ask. I've received mail from him that if I had anything that I wanted him to read, I could Cc: to /dev/null, and that he has stopped reading this thread. His basis on refusing to help me split the root directory between 2 3.5" volumes was that he belived I would then complain that it is slow and disk intensive, not realizing that one volume would be a RAMdisk, and thus the more frequently used files would be put there. As soon as I figure out what this 4th registration card is for, I'll be sending them in. >>However, if you are a scum >>sucking orange peel eating armpit of a goat aryan army communist bastard that >>pirates software, especially ProLine, then you should DELETE your copy, and >>BUY it from Morgan. >YEAH! I LIKE it! :) I got it direct from Morgan. He has posted about that already (before he decided to abstain from the discussion). >Amrit >ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | >UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (06/10/91)
Tell me one thing, Greg -- What sort of BBS would have such limited permanent storage? I think Morgan is quite reasonable in requiring a hard disk.
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Life...) (06/11/91)
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes: >Tell me one thing, Greg -- What sort of BBS would have such limited >permanent storage? Well, a non-network, non-file, message oriented system can run rather well on a limited storage system of one 5.25" disk. I know one system which runs on that setup, and it is even on a C=64. GBBS can make it on 2 5.25" disks. >I think Morgan is quite reasonable in requiring >a hard disk. Yes, but it might not be reasonable in requiring that you install all the code needed for networking and shell access when you don't plan to use any of it. It would be nice if that was a configurable setting. Better if one could specify different sections of the root directory onto separate volumes, by aliasing them. -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) (06/11/91)
CS-ID: #695.apple.talk/sys.apple2@pro-hindugods, 1636 chars Date: 10 Jun 91 19:05:57 GMT From: greg@hoss.unl.edu (Life...) Subject: Re: Apple ][ BBS Software Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2 Organization: GBBS/ACOS Sysop Support Lines: 24 greg@hoss.unl.edu writes: >gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes: >>Tell me one thing, Greg -- What sort of BBS would have such limited >>permanent storage? >Well, a non-network, non-file, message oriented system can run rather well >on a limited storage system of one 5.25" disk. I know one system which >runs on that setup, and it is even on a C=64. GBBS can make it on 2 5.25" >disks. The point here is, how many systems actually run on this type of configuration? Yes, it would be nice to have it configurable, but for the vast majority, probably over 95% of all boards, a large message base, and an even larger file section exists...agreed? How many boards out there run only on a 3.5 or a 5.25 inch disk ONLY? Like I said, over 95% use hard disks. GBBS may offer it for 3.5 or 5.25 inches, but it is not overwhelmingly used. >>I think Morgan is quite reasonable in requiring >>a hard disk. That he is. Again, very few systems run off little disk storage. If you want to run a SMALL board, then don't buy ProLine...ProLine was not meant to be used as a very, very, very SMALL board. If you don't want networking capabilites, and a very limited message base, then go with GBBS. >greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to Amrit ===The Hindu Love Gods BBS - - - - Bloomfield Hills, MI - - - -313/644-0481=== ProLine: apollo@pro-hindugods | Amrit S. Chauhan Internet: apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | Voice: 313/644-2971 UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | Intel 9600ex Modem in use. ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | PPE member: thanks jwolverton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The only ProLine site in the 313 area. Come on, someone buy a ProLine here. :) :-) C:# %-| =|:-)= :<)= `-) :-C :-O :-D B-) 8-:) :-> :-c :*) ===============================================================================
sysadmin@pnet91.cts.com (Matthew Montano) (06/12/91)
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Life...) writes: >>I think Morgan is quite reasonable in requiring >>a hard disk. > >Yes, but it might not be reasonable in requiring that you install all the >code needed for networking and shell access when you don't plan to use any >of it. It would be nice if that was a configurable setting. Better if >one could specify different sections of the root directory onto separate >volumes, by aliasing them. Remarkably, the networking code in ProLine must not be anything more than three programs: MDSS - actual online handshaking/transfer system SCAN - task to check for out going mail POLL - call the specified site I don't think that's over 15-20k of code. Documentation might be another 10k. In terms of modern networking design, it's fantastic. FidoNet is megabytes of front end mailers etc.. etc.. UUCP (although more robust) is megabytes in size. The design of the networking system is remarkably elegant and compact. Matthew --- ventureTech Intelligence - We're trying to make computers easy, SOME HOW! Email: sysadmin@pnet91.cts.com (most mailers won't barf on that..) My comments aren't even worth a disclaimer... And the further I get from the things that I care about... The less I care about how much further away I get - Robert Smith, 1989
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Life...) (06/13/91)
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >greg@hoss.unl.edu writes: >>gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes: >>>Tell me one thing, Greg -- What sort of BBS would have such limited >>>permanent storage? >>Well, a non-network, non-file, message oriented system can run rather well >>on a limited storage system of one 5.25" disk. I know one system which >>runs on that setup, and it is even on a C=64. GBBS can make it on 2 5.25" >>disks. >The point here is, how many systems actually run on this type of >configuration? Yes, it would be nice to have it configurable, but for the >vast majority, probably over 95% of all boards, a large message base, and an >even larger file section exists...agreed? I wouldn't agree with that figure of 95%. That percentage isn't accurate for this community. However, let's not get into another Arbitron-type argument. In fact, GBBS definitely does not force you to use such a small storage system. You can configure it to use every storage device that you can fit into ProDOS 8. (SCSI.PART recommended for any 8-bit Apple BBS which runs off of a hard drive.) >How many boards out there run only >on a 3.5 or a 5.25 inch disk ONLY? Mine runs on 1 3.5", 1 800K RAMdisk, with 1 5.25" for some applications not run with the board, but which I find useful to have handy. With 9 message areas, I still have lots of free space. I know of a C= EBBS 64 that runs off 1 5.25" disk, 5 message areas. Another system ran on 2 5.25" drives on a Franklin. One system ran practically the same setup I have until he got himself a hard drive. >GBBS may offer it for 3.5 or 5.25 inches, but it is not overwhelmingly used. But it is nice to have the option. You can't deny such systems exist. >>>I think Morgan is quite reasonable in requiring >>>a hard disk. >That he is. Again, very few systems run off little disk storage. If you >want to run a SMALL board, then don't buy ProLine...ProLine was not meant to >be used as a very, very, very SMALL board. If you don't want networking >capabilites, and a very limited message base, then go with GBBS. You are getting insulting again. Your repeated use of "very" implies a system which is only capable of storing two messages, one of which is feedback. Also, I would not classify the message system of GBBS as "very limited". >ProLine: apollo@pro-hindugods | Amrit S. Chauhan >Internet: apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | Voice: 313/644-2971 I reread the ProLine manual. Very little of the manual is about ProLine itself. Most of it is just a listing of all the shell commands available. -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) (06/15/91)
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >greg@hoss.unl.edu writes: >>The point here is, how many systems actually run on this type of >>configuration? Yes, it would be nice to have it configurable, but for the >>vast majority, probably over 95% of all boards, a large message base, and an >>even larger file section exists...agreed? >I wouldn't agree with that figure of 95%. That percentage isn't accurate >for this community. However, let's not get into another Arbitron-type Well, ok...maybe you don't have to agree with the 95% but my point is that there are MANY more BBS's out there that run off more than just a 5.25" Drive, and a 3.5, and a RAM disk. Can you agree with that? I won't make any estimations, but there are many more. >>GBBS may offer it for 3.5 or 5.25 inches, but it is not overwhelmingly >>used. >But it is nice to have the option. You can't deny such systems exist. I'm not denying that. It is nice, but for the most part, Bulletin Boards run off of larger disks and almost all of them on Hard Drives. I don't know of ANY in my local area...that's only MY local area that run off of anything less than a Hard Drive. Again, my point is that there are many more that run off hard drives than smaller storage devices. >want to run a SMALL board, then don't buy ProLine...ProLine was not meant to >be used as a very, very, very SMALL board. If you don't want networking >capabilites, and a very limited message base, then go with GBBS. >>You are getting insulting again. Your repeated use of "very" implies a >>system which is only capable of storing two messages, one of which is >>feedback. Also, I would not classify the message system of GBBS as "very >>limited". Get off it Greg. I'm not insulting anything. Please don't start taking me out of context here. I'm sorry you get insulted so easily, and I'm sorry "very" has negative conotations for you. I was only making a point. My conference system runs off my hard drive because it has over 4 MG of messages in it. How do you fit that into a 3.5 inch disk? Compared to my configurations, a 3.5 or even a 5.25 disk drive would be VERY VERY VERY small. That is what my point is. You have missed my point every time, or taken me out of context. Please don't do that. >I reread the ProLine manual. Very little of the manual is about ProLine >itself. Most of it is just a listing of all the shell commands available. What do you think ProLine is?! ALL of ProLine's commands are the shell commands. Without a manual that covered that, how would you know how to use it!? *please don't take the "!?" as insulting either*...ProLine's Shell IS ProLine. What else do you want the manual to say? It does talk about ProLine. Your's is an invalid point. What would you have the ProLine manual describe? How would you describe "ProLine itself?" And it's not a listing...it is a VERY comprehensive explanation of EACH command...for a total of over 180 pages or so! >greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them ===The Hindu Love Gods BBS - - - - Bloomfield Hills, MI - - - -313/644-0481=== ProLine: apollo@pro-hindugods | Amrit S. Chauhan Internet: apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | Voice: 313/644-2971 UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | Intel 9600ex Modem in use. ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | PPE member: thanks jwolverton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The only ProLine site in the 313 area. Come on, someone buy a ProLine here. :) :-) C:# %-| =|:-)= :<)= `-) :-C :-O :-D B-) 8-:) :-> :-c :*) ===============================================================================
greg@hoss.unl.edu (Life...) (06/15/91)
apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >>greg@hoss.unl.edu writes: Er, that's backwards. apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >greg@hoss.unl.edu (Life...) writes: >>apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: You were attributing text to me that you had written, which is wrong. :-) Just automate the thing. Have code which will (1) output the new attribution of the post you are replying to, (2) go line by line, adding a > to every line, copying it into whatever you use for an editor, and (3) enter the editor. Everything from then on SHOULD be straightforward. >Well, ok...maybe you don't have to agree with the 95% but my point is that >there are MANY more BBS's out there that run off more than just a 5.25" >Drive, and a 3.5, and a RAM disk. Can you agree with that? I won't make any >estimations, but there are many more. >>But it is nice to have the option. You can't deny such systems exist. >I'm not denying that. It is nice, but for the most part, Bulletin Boards run >off of larger disks and almost all of them on Hard Drives. Considering only the non-networked, message-only systems, is the space they use capable of being put onto a minimal IIgs system (3.5", 5.25", 1.128 MB)? Or a standard //e configuration of 2 5.25"? My point is that one does not need a hard drive to run a BBS. More is not always better. Also, you can't be having 50 systems, all with downloads and tied into the same networks. With all in the same local-calling-area, you have a bunch of systems which give you nothing in the sense of differences. >I don't know of >ANY in my local area...that's only MY local area that run off of anything >less than a Hard Drive. Again, my point is that there are many more that run >off hard drives than smaller storage devices. >>>want to run a SMALL board, then don't buy ProLine...ProLine was not meant to >>>be used as a very, very, very SMALL board. If you don't want networking >>>capabilites, and a very limited message base, then go with GBBS. >>You are getting insulting again. Your repeated use of "very" implies a >>system which is only capable of storing two messages, one of which is >>feedback. Also, I would not classify the message system of GBBS as "very >>limited". >Get off it Greg. I'm not insulting anything. Please don't start taking me >out of context here. Sorry, it is bad net.behaviour to include an entire article just to make sure that you aren't taking people out of context. >I'm sorry you get insulted so easily, and I'm sorry >"very" has negative conotations for you. I was only making a point. Yeah, but one which even you should be able to see can be taken as a very degrading comment toward another system. "Very" in itself is not inheritantly negative. Its use to emphasis "SMALL" and "limited message base" is. >My >conference system runs off my hard drive because it has over 4 MG of messages >in it. How do you fit that into a 3.5 inch disk? I don't plan to network on a 3.5" disk. Wait, how about I define it as a single node network? Volume of posts and projected disk usage is much more controllable and predictable in such a small network. >Compared to my >configurations, a 3.5 or even a 5.25 disk drive would be VERY VERY VERY >small. Your configuration, yes. I want to reconfigure so that I can get it into 1600K. (Amazing how fitting it into 1600K is much more difficult than fitting it into 1024K, which I have done before, although it is very impractical.) >That is what my point is. You have missed my point every time, or >taken me out of context. Please don't do that. I check what I am including carefully so that I respond only to what is the pertinent lines of the previous message. This requires editing. I do my best to keep the original context intact with the smallest amount of data transferred. >>I reread the ProLine manual. Very little of the manual is about ProLine >>itself. Most of it is just a listing of all the shell commands available. >What do you think ProLine is?! ALL of ProLine's commands are the shell >commands. Without a manual that covered that, how would you know how to use >it!? Chapter One: Getting Started pages 1-17 Chapter Two: Creating Accounts 19-22 Chapter Three: Using ProLine 23-34 Chapter Four: Networking 35-39 Chapter Five: System Manual 41-219 Appendix: 221-238 Index: 239-242 With all that, there is still insufficient information for a new sysop to make significant chnages to the ProLine core code. To find out how to use the ModemWorks and AmperWorks utilities, you need to buy ModemWorks, and get that manual. Or you can get MD-BASIC, getting the AmperWorks docs, but nothing on ModemWorks. Again, I can only recommend ProLine to those with the money and hardware which would allow them to modify the system. That means an over $300 investment in software, list. Nothing in the ProLine manual suggests that the manuals are available separate from the software. In effect, the whole of the documentation about what I consider ProLine itself is telling you to "explore". Browsing through a file tree is not using a BBS. >What else do you want the manual to say? It does talk about >ProLine. Your's is an invalid point. What would you have the ProLine manual >describe? How would you describe "ProLine itself?" And it's not a >listing...it is a VERY comprehensive explanation of EACH command...for a >total of over 180 pages or so! But absolutely nothing about how to program the damn thing. The "& /", "& \", and "& <" instructions are hardly intuitively named. >ProLine: apollo@pro-hindugods | Amrit S. Chauhan >Internet: apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | Voice: 313/644-2971 As to figuring out the code, from the MD-BASIC manual, chapter 4, page 45: "If the program is optimized, attempting to make sense of the listing is equivalent to dropping into the machine-language monitor (the * prompt) to debug a machine language program by studying the hexadecimal codes." -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
rsopicki@pro-amber.cts.com (System Administrator) (06/17/91)
In-Reply-To: message from greg@hoss.unl.edu Gee guys! There is nothing wrong with running a bbs on 5 1/4 drives. I did it myself before I bought my hard drive. I ran an AppleNet system on 4 51/4 inch drives and a Ram disk. I bought a hard drive and upgraded to proline. My big problem on the small system was monitoring disk space. The hard drive eliminates that to some extent. I guess what I'm trying to say is there ain't nothing wrong with a small bbs. What ever suits you and your users is ok! ---- ProLine: rsopicki@pro-amber Internet: rsopicki@pro-amber.cts.com UUCP: crash!pro-amber!rsopicki ARPA: crash!pro-amber!rsopicki@nosc.mil