cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Charles William Swiger) (09/22/90)
>If it is speed you want, then why not get a 486. The >386/486 are probablythe best price/performance >computers you will find if speed is the only issue, >which I do not agree with. [ lots of good comments about software, OS, and Apple's people deleted ] >Philip McDunnough >University of Toronto >philip@utstat.toronto.edu Without trying to argue about machine A being better for reaon B than machine C, here is a price/performance list for a coupla machines that I know: DEC 3100 w/ B&W 1024x768 pixel display: $16000 / 14 MIPS = $1150 / MIP IBM 386 (Model 80?) w/ VGA color (640x400) display: $4500 / 1.5 MIPS = $3000 / MIP Apple Mac //ci w/ 4-bit color (640x400) display: $5500 / 2.0 MIPS = $2750 / MIP Commodore Amiga w/ 4-bit color (640x200?) display: $2500 / 1.0 MIPS = $2500 / MIP Apple //gs w/ 4-bit color (320x200) display: $2500 / .35 MIPS = $7100 / MIP The prices were taken from the best that I could get out of CMU's computer store including serious educational discounts. (And may not reflect the prices you see in your local store....) It indicates a complete "reasonable" system, including comparable displays (well, as best as can be done) and mouse, keyboard, ~40 MB hard drive, printer, etc. The MIPS (Millions of Instructions Per Second) figures is based on what I recall from a bunch of magazine tests, and very approximately indicates the computer's "speed" and "performance". Speed is most certainly not the most important aspect of a system, but still, a quick glance shows a disparity. (I admit that it is unfair to compare the //gs to a DEC 3100, but it does show a nice price / performance ratio. :-) I wonder why Apple doesn't redesign the //gs in order to provide certain basic improvements into the Apple //gs. These are some of the things that I'd like to see, or have heard other people wish for.... Considering that many (most?) people buy a Transwarp for $300 running at about 8 MHz, and some a 68881 coprocessor card that is available for $250 or so: Apple could build a //gs with at least an 8 MHz CPU, main memory, ROM, etc, that would add less to the cost of the machine than a Transwarp. This would make a serious improvement in the //gs' performance. Apple could include a socket on the motherboard for an optional math co-processor chip (such as the 68881) and design the SANE toolset to take advantage of such a co-processor rather than executing the torturously slow emulation thereof, greatly improving the speed of SANE calculations.... Apple could make some very needed improvements at the same time: >> like adding built-in stereo output with a decent internal amp (and an analog volume control like the //c), rather than the $50 dollar cards now required >> redesigning the Mega II >> adding a seperate SCSI connector on the "fast" side, not running through a 1 Mhz slot, thus not forcing people to buy that $129 dollar Apple SCSI card in order to operate a hard drive efficiently -- Charles William Swiger cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu
jh4o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeffrey T. Hutzelman) (09/22/90)
Charles William Swiger <cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes: > Apple could include a socket on the motherboard for an optional math > co-processor chip (such as the 68881) and design the SANE toolset > to take advantage of such a co-processor rather than executing the > torturously slow emulation thereof, greatly improving the speed of > SANE calculations.... Actually, although there isn't a socket for a math coprocessor chip, I do know of a floating point CARD for the IIgs that (in)SANE supports. I don't remember what it's called; it's mentioned in the ORCA/C manual. Incidentally, ORCA/C can generate code that bypasses (in)SANE and calls the FP card in question directly. ----------------- Jeffrey Hutzelman America Online: JeffreyH11 Internet/BITNET:jh4o+@andrew.cmu.edu, jhutz@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu >> Apple // Forever!!! <<
cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Charles William Swiger) (09/23/90)
>> Apple could include a socket on the motherboard for an optional math >> co-processor chip (such as the 68881) and design the SANE toolset >> to take advantage of such a co-processor rather than executing the >> torturously slow emulation thereof, greatly improving the speed of >> SANE calculations.... >Actually, although there isn't a socket for a math coprocessor chip, I >do know of a floating point CARD for the IIgs that (in)SANE supports. I >don't remember what it's called; it's mentioned in the ORCA/C manual. >Incidentally, ORCA/C can generate code that bypasses (in)SANE and calls >the FP card in question directly. Yes, I know. I mentioned it two paragraphs earlier.... It's called the Floating Point Engine, for about $250, was advertised in conjuction with Byte Works Orca/C, and uses a 68881. It (supposedly) has a patch for the SANE toolset that will send SANE requests to the 68881. >"Jeffrey T. Hutzelman" <jh4o+@andrew.cmu.edu> -- Charles William Swiger cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu
asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) (09/26/90)
You forgot one really recent important one: NeXTstation w/B&W 1120x832: $4995 / 15 MIPS = $333 / MIP Educational pricing should be at $3200, and I've heard that's it's even as low $2995. Lots of good thoughts deleted. -k
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) (09/29/90)
In article <MayeQd600Vp015aV50@andrew.cmu.edu> jh4o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jeffrey T. Hutzelman) writes: >Actually, although there isn't a socket for a math coprocessor chip, I >do know of a floating point CARD for the IIgs that (in)SANE supports. I >don't remember what it's called; it's mentioned in the ORCA/C manual. >Incidentally, ORCA/C can generate code that bypasses (in)SANE and calls >the FP card in question directly. There are at least two such add-on math coprocessors, but the one that ORCA/C supports is Innovative Systems' Floating-Point Engine (FPE). It works very well, but early versions of the TransWarp/GS were incompatible with it. A PAL upgrade for the TWGS along with a TWGS board modification (lifting pin 1 of U22; get AE to do this for you unless you are really good at such things) solves the compatibility problem, or at least it did for mine. Innovative Systems is a small outfit based somewhere in Maryland; ByteWorks sells their FPE card and that is perhaps the easiest way to obtain it. A 3.5" utility disk is included that contains diagnostics, installation tools, etc. plus benchmarks and a little module that AppleSoft BASIC programs can load to obtain FPE power for the programs. On a IIGS, one also installs an INIT file that arranges to intercept SANE tool calls and handle them via the FPE. Any SANE-using application will thus automatically benefit from the FPE. The additional support in ORCA/C (and possibly ORCA/Pascal, I forget) bypasses SANE and directly accesses the registers associated with the slot that the card is installed in. Such code will not work if copied to a IIGS that is missing the FPE or has it in another slot; however, if the application is for one's own personal use this is not an issue. If you have a floating-point intensive application on your IIGS that desperately needs to be sped up, I highly recommend the FPE. It is usable on an 8-bit Apple, too, as noted above, although it takes a fairly high degree of expertise to utilize it from assembly language.
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (09/29/90)
In article <13961@smoke.BRL.MIL> gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) writes: > On a IIGS, one also installs an INIT file that >arranges to intercept SANE tool calls and handle them via the FPE. >Any SANE-using application will thus automatically benefit from the >FPE. Just wondering if people knew of any GS programs that -DO- use SANE. Does AppleWorks GS??? If not, what does? -- /pqbdpqbdpqbd Apple II(GS) Forever! unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu dbqpdbqpdbqp\ \"If cartoons were meant for adults, they'd be on in prime time."-Lisa Simpson/
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) (09/30/90)
In article <7324@darkstar.ucsc.edu> unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) writes: >In article <13961@smoke.BRL.MIL> gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) writes: >>Any SANE-using application will thus automatically benefit from the FPE. > Just wondering if people knew of any GS programs that -DO- use SANE. Yes! In fact, in experimenting with the effect of the FPE, I found that SANE was sometimes used in applications where you might guess otherwise. For sure it's used for floating-point applications compiled (for example by ORCA/C) without enabling the special FPE support. One of the benchmarks on the version of FPE software that I received was a Mandelbrot-set image generator. Because the computational kernel of the program is, essentially, for each pixel(i,j): cx = min_x + i * step cy = min_y + j * step zx = zy = 0 iter = 0 repeat: x = zx * zx - zy * zy + cx zy = 2.0 * zx * zy + cy zx = x iter = iter + 1 until zx * zx + zy * zy >= thresh or iter >= max_iters assign color[iter] to pixel(i,j) there is obviously a LOT of floating-point computation involved in producing the whole image (max_iters is typically 1000). Thus this program provides a nice practical demonstration of the effects of the FPE. I don't recall the exact timings, but the in-line FPE use reduced the running time from something like an hour to something like less than a minute; the improvement was quite dramatic.
cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Charles William Swiger) (10/01/90)
> Just wondering if people knew of any GS >programs that -DO- use SANE. Does AppleWorks GS??? >If not, what does? Most of the simulation programs available for the //gs use SANE. (Sub Battle Simulator, Destroyer, Tomahawk, Silent Service, etc) You need to do a bunch of trig calculations for dealing with objects in motion thru a 3d space. Also, the display would also need to use trig stuff in order to get the perspectives right. AppleWorks GS probably also uses SANE. Any math intensive program (a spreadsheet perhaps) would. -- Charles William Swiger cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu
crew@pro-harvest.cts.com (Chris Wicklein) (12/30/90)
>In almost every generation of Intel chips since then the capabilities of the >chips have increased and NOT by just the clock speed. There are some fanatical >Apple // people who seem to remember that original benchmark and extrapolate >it >to mean that a 2.8MHz GS is equivalent to a 12Mhz 286. It just isn >so. The 65816 unfortunately doesn't do 16bit data transfers...all at once that >is. The 286 has a 16bit bus and CAN do 16 bit data transfers that way. SO it >is >somewhat faster than the 65816. A 2.8MHz GS is about as fast as a 7.7 MHz '286, and an 8MHz GS is about as fast as a 22MHz '286. Note I'm not comparing the 65816 to the 80286. I'm comparing the '816, GS design, GS/OS, Toolbox effeciency, etc. to the '286, IBM AT design, MS-DOS, etc. to gauge over-all preformance. Alot of the GS's edge is granted by effie efficient QuickDraw routines and carefull assembly programming by dedicated individuals. That's the bottom line when it comes to who's faster. ________________________ _________________________ | ProLine: crew@pro-harvest | | Internet: crew@pro-harvest.cts.com | | UUCP: crash!pro-harvest!crew | | ARPA: crash!pro-harvest!crew@nosc.mil | |_______________ BITNET: crew%pro-harvest.cts.com@nosc.mil _________________|
PYC121@URIACC.URI.EDU (Andy Kress) (06/28/91)
Saw a note that was saying Orca/C is fast and someone basically laughing at that statment. Here's something I noticed...not to do with Orca/C. When I first got my GS it came with Prodos16 version 3.1(I think). I thought it was great!! I used it all the time and it never bothered me. Then GS/OS 4.0 came out....didn't seem like much of an improvment but I used it. Then I went back and used Prodos16 for something and gagged!!! It was unbearibly slow. The same thing happened when 5.0 came out. If you use 5.04 and really want to torture yourself try booting Prodos16 and then go crazy! Now my latest experience with this is having a HD and a ZipGS. I have the Zip configured to off and let the INIT turn it on on boot. Well I re-formatted my HD and had booted off a floppy so the Zip wasn't on....A) The boot was slow from a floppy and B) The desktop was unbearably slow too! I immeadiatly installed the init on the floppy and re-booted. Much better. The funny thing is when I first put my Zip in I didn't see any apparent increase...I was going to return it cause it didnt do anything for the price I paid. BOY was I WRONG! So the hole point of this note is to say you get used to things. I think my GS screams along because I am used to it with a Zip, HD, and 5.04. When 6.0 comes out and I get a faster HD someday my current set up will be so slow I cant use it. Ok...Im done! +--------------+-------------------------+----------------------------+ | Andy Kress | Univ. of Rhode Island | PYC121 AT URIACC.URI.EDU | +--------------+--------+----------------+----------------------------+ | No, it's not a Mac. | Apple II: The power to rule the world!!! | +-----------------------+---------------------------------------------+
benson@vuse.vanderbilt.edu (Paul Benson) (06/29/91)
In article <9106281226.AA20421@apple.com> PYC121@URIACC.URI.EDU (Andy Kress) writes: > > The funny thing is when I first put my Zip > in I didn't see any apparent increase...I was going to return it cause > it didnt do anything for the price I paid. BOY was I WRONG! > > +--------------+-------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Andy Kress | Univ. of Rhode Island | PYC121 AT URIACC.URI.EDU | > +--------------+--------+----------------+----------------------------+ > | No, it's not a Mac. | Apple II: The power to rule the world!!! | > +-----------------------+---------------------------------------------+ Actually, I think these accelerator cards are _fake_. What they really do is make your machine run slower in 'GS normal' mode and at about .2 MHz for '1 MHz' mode. So 'fast' mode is really the standard 2.8 MHz for the GS. I'm _kidding_! -- Paul 'BaJa' Benson Vanderbilt University GEnie: P.Benson1 Net: benson@vuse.vanderbilt.edu