stc7@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Steven T Chiang) (06/16/91)
Would you believe it if I told you that: 1) I got a 100 meg HD for under $300. 2) I made my Rom 01 into a Rom 3. Didn't think so. Anyway, I did. 1) Check the back of the July 1991 InCider. In the marketplace, there is a dinky add for a place called Frog Systems. The number is 800-654-frog, and they advertised a 100 meg internal hd for $259, and externally for $349. The external unit includes a powersupply, case, and cable. I opted for an internal, because I have my own power supply and cables... The mechanism is a Rodime 100 megger... it's a nice unit... I have it installed and working, btw. It's a 3.5 inch unit, and is very quiet. It's standard SCSI, and I've tested it with both RamFast and Rev C SCSI. The seek time for the drive is 24ms, which isn't bad considering the price. With the RamFast (no accelerator) using prosel statistics, the 2nd stat (I believe random block read) was ~18 ms, the other two were around 1.xx. With Rev C SCSI (no accelerator) the 2nd stat was ~30 ms, and the other two were around 6 ms. And on Rev C with TWGS, the 2nd stat was 30 ms and the others were ~4. 2) How to achieve Rom 03 compatibility, on a Rom 01. The process is actually quite simple if you have the hardware. I have a GSRam Ultra, which has rom sockets. Basically, you have to get a hold of Rom 3 roms, both of them (I haven't found where I can get a set), but you just plug the low rom into the mother board, and the high rom into the GSRam socket.... it's quite simple, because the sockets on the ultra are pin compatible with the gs roms, and they map to the same locations... I suppose this doesn't really mean that much to non-Ultra owners... but how hard would it be to build a small card to allow for extra roms, with a piggyback connector for a ram card? Anyway, I tested out the CPU... and didn't have any problems. My Control Panel, had the new mouse menu, and the rest of the slightly modified menus.... I booted my system disk without ts2 and only ts3, and that worked like a charm. I also tested the smartport firmware (the rom 3's is quicker) and that worked without a glitch... meaning that my smartport was also faster.(therevised smartport was firmware only) I didn't get sticky keys, though, because that was an actual hardware mod, I guess... anyway.... just to let you know.... if you have a gs ram ultra.... let me know if you are interested... I'm trying to think of uses for the extra rom space. If you have any questions... just ask... later Steven Chiang Coming Soon: DreamGrafix 3200 color power stc7@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu America On_Line: DWS Steve Apple IIgs Forever!
mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) (06/18/91)
In article <1991Jun16.120626.15116@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> stc7@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Steven T Chiang) writes: > >2) How to achieve Rom 03 compatibility, on a Rom 01. > > The process is actually quite simple if you have the hardware. >I have a GSRam Ultra, which has rom sockets. Basically, you have to >get a hold of Rom 3 roms, both of them (I haven't found where I can >get a set), but you just plug the low rom into the mother board, and >the high rom into the GSRam socket.... it's quite simple, because the >sockets on the ultra are pin compatible with the gs roms, and they map >to the same locations... > This is true, and this is how (in fact) we originally tested the first few rounds of ROM 03, at least until preliminary hardware started coming in. However, this causes problems (see below), _other_ than the fact that Apple does not sell the ROMs without a CPU attached. > Anyway, I tested out the CPU... and didn't have any problems. >My Control Panel, had the new mouse menu, and the rest of the slightly >modified menus.... I booted my system disk without ts2 and only ts3, >and that worked like a charm. I also tested the smartport firmware >(the rom 3's is quicker) and that worked without a glitch... meaning >that my smartport was also faster.(therevised smartport was firmware >only) I didn't get sticky keys, though, because that was an actual >hardware mod, I guess... > Once the preliminary hardware started arriving (with the new larger keyboard micro controller, for example), we _stopped testing_ ROM 03 on ROM 01 IIgs hardware. We can't offer any guarantees that programs or (more likely) system software that identifies the ROM won't do hardware- specific things they shouldn't do to your system. ROM 03 not connected to a 1 MB motherboard is totally unsupported, and if you use such a system (of questionable legality anyway, given the inavailability of the ROMs) you are operating completely at your own risk. > >anyway.... just to let you know.... > Ditto. >if you have a gs ram ultra.... let me know if you are interested... >I'm trying to think of uses for the extra rom space. > All ROM space is reserved for Apple and may not be used by third-party developers for any reason. >Steven Chiang Coming Soon: DreamGrafix 3200 color power >stc7@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu >America On_Line: DWS Steve Apple IIgs Forever! -- ============================================================================ Matt Deatherage, Developer Technical | The opinions expressed herein are Support, Apple Computer, Inc. | not those of Apple Computer, and Personal mail only, please. Thanks. | shame on you for thinking otherwise. ^^^^^^^^ Technical questions are not personal. Please post them instead. ============================================================================
stadler@Apple.COM (Andy Stadler) (06/18/91)
In article <1991Jun16.120626.15116@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> stc7@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Steven T Chiang) writes: > >2) How to achieve Rom 03 compatibility, on a Rom 01. > > [Steven describes placing 1/2 of the ROM 03 set into the motherboard, > and the other ROM chip into one of the sockets on a GSRam Ultra] > Just a quick plug for the legal department - please, folks, remember that Apple's ROM chips contain copyrighted code and they are not for sale. There are a lot of people on this board (correctly) advocating an end to piracy, recognizing the damage it's done to the software industry. Let's not take a step backwards on this. ROM's are programs too. > Anyway, I tested out the CPU... and didn't have any problems. Actually, it's not so simple. When we developed the ROM 03, we started out doing exactly what you describe - one ROM in the motherboard, and the other ROM on a special RAM/ROM card we built a few of internally. This configuration works OK in the 16-bit world, but there are problems, especially in the 8-bit world, which you touched upon when you mentioned sticky keys. The keyboard/ mouse/ADB controller was redesigned for the 1 Megabyte motherboard, and the ROM 03 knows about that. You may have some glitchy jumpy cursor problems, and some 8-bit software may be very difficult to control. In short, for both legal and technical reasons, I cannot recommend placing ROM 03 chips in a ROM 01 motherboard. Andy Stadler Apple Computer, Inc.
jeffb@world.std.com (Jeffrey T Berntsen) (06/19/91)
mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) writes: >All ROM space is reserved for Apple and may not be used by third-party >developers for any reason. Huh? I thought Apple had published specifications for using part of this space as a ROM disk. Am I imagining things? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey T. Berntsen | Looking for a good .sig jeffb@world.std.com | -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
lwv27@CAS.BITNET (Larry W. Virden) (06/19/91)
In article <1991Jun18.214902.2853@world.std.com>, jeffb@world.std.com (Jeffrey T :mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) writes: : :>All ROM space is reserved for Apple and may not be used by third-party :>developers for any reason. : :Huh? I thought Apple had published specifications for using part of this space :as a ROM disk. Am I imagining things? : :----------------------------------------------------------------------------- :Jeffrey T. Berntsen | Looking for a good .sig :jeffb@world.std.com | :----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not only that, several folks had 'ROM DISK' hardware which either provided the ability for the user to electronically or otherwise create a ROM based disk similar to a RAM disk or, in one hard ware case (RAMKEEPER?) a second RAM disk was able to be called /ROM5 or some such name and was battery kept. I thought it was in the ROM address range. -- Larry W. Virden UUCP: osu-cis!chemabs!lwv27 Same Mbox: BITNET: lwv27@cas INET: lwv27%cas.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.Edu Personal: 674 Falls Place, Reynoldsburg,OH 43068-1614 America Online: lvirden
andy@pro-palmtree.cts.com (Andy Stein) (06/20/91)
In-Reply-To: message from mattd@Apple.COM
Matt, I think the ROM sockets on the GS RAM Ultra are for use with
Applied Engineering's products, and not meant to violate any Copyright or
patent that Apple might have on them. They might be used for enhancing
the Apple IIGS, but I'm sure AE knew what it was doing when it put them
there.-Rich-@cup.portal.com (Richard Sherman Payne) (06/21/91)
>>if you have a gs ram ultra.... let me know if you are interested... >>I'm trying to think of uses for the extra rom space. >> >All ROM space is reserved for Apple and may not be used by third-party >developers for any reason. Matt, Apple can copyright their ROMS, but they do not own the ROM *space*. I do not think it possible that Apple has plans for *all* 8MB of ROM space, nor have I ever heard of any computer of any kind with that much ROM. ROM's cost money, and board space, and it would take a hell of a lot of code and *large* graphics to fill 8 MB. Now Apple can say that they will not support any such use, and that things done in this space may break in the future. But I cannot see how they have any say over others using it. Nor can I think of any legal reasons why I should not put my own code there (not that I have any such plans). Correct me if I you know different. >>Steven Chiang Coming Soon: DreamGrafix 3200 color power >>stc7@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu >>America On_Line: DWS Steve Apple IIgs Forever! >-- >============================================================================ >Matt Deatherage, Developer Technical | The opinions expressed herein are >Support, Apple Computer, Inc. | not those of Apple Computer, and >Personal mail only, please. Thanks. | shame on you for thinking otherwise. >^^^^^^^^ Technical questions are not personal. Please post them instead. >============================================================================ Rich -Rich-@cup.portal.com
stc7@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Steven T Chiang) (06/21/91)
In article <54085@apple.Apple.COM> mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) writes: [ Stuff delete... ] >All ROM space is reserved for Apple and may not be used by third-party >developers for any reason. Even if it is mapped to $f80000? >-- >============================================================================ >Matt Deatherage, Developer Technical | The opinions expressed herein are Steven Chiang Coming Soon: DreamGrafix 3200 color power stc7@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu America On_Line: DWS Steve Apple IIgs Forever!
stc7@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Steven T Chiang) (06/21/91)
In article <54087@apple.Apple.COM> stadler@Apple.COM (Andy Stadler) writes: > >Just a quick plug for the legal department - please, folks, remember that >Apple's ROM chips contain copyrighted code and they are not for sale. There >are a lot of people on this board (correctly) advocating an end to piracy, >recognizing the damage it's done to the software industry. Let's not take a >step backwards on this. ROM's are programs too. Agreed. Just for the record, these were pulled off a friend's Rom 3. >Actually, it's not so simple. When we developed the ROM 03, we started out >doing exactly what you describe - one ROM in the motherboard, and the other >ROM on a special RAM/ROM card we built a few of internally. This configuration >works OK in the 16-bit world, but there are problems, especially in the 8-bit >world, which you touched upon when you mentioned sticky keys. The keyboard/ >mouse/ADB controller was redesigned for the 1 Megabyte motherboard, and the >ROM 03 knows about that. You may have some glitchy jumpy cursor problems, >and some 8-bit software may be very difficult to control. Well, you'd know better than I would... I didn't test the stuff out in ProDOS 8, so I don't know what it will do. >In short, for both legal and technical reasons, I cannot recommend placing >ROM 03 chips in a ROM 01 motherboard. That's why I brought it up, to see if maybe it was that easy... oh well... Steven Chiang Coming Soon: DreamGrafix 3200 color power stc7@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu America On_Line: DWS Steve Apple IIgs Forever!
rhyde@koufax.ucr.edu (randy hyde) (06/22/91)
No, Apple doesn't own the ROM space anymore than Intel owns the interrupt vector space on the 8086. IBM felt they could make better use of the interrupt space and they were *screwed* when Intel announced the 80286. Apple won't throw you in jail or sue you if you use that ROM space, but then, you can't complain if they come out with a new product which is incompatible with your product, either. OTOH, I *do* remember Apple mentioning that $800000 through $BFFFFF was reserved for a ROM disk. It's been many years so (a) I may have forgotten the details, or (b) Apple changed their mind and I didn't find out about it. However, were Apple to come out with a *new* GS which used that space, I wouldn't feel bad about it at all... *** Randy Hyde`
MQUINN@UTCVM.BITNET (06/22/91)
On Fri, 21 Jun 1991 05:24:50 GMT Richard Sherman Payne said: >>> >>All ROM space is reserved for Apple and may not be used by third-party >>developers for any reason. > >Matt, Apple can copyright their ROMS, but they do not own the ROM >*space*. I do not think it possible that Apple has plans for *all* 8MB >of ROM space, nor have I ever heard of any computer of any kind with >that much ROM. ROM's cost money, and board space, and it would take a >hell of a lot of code and *large* graphics to fill 8 MB. [much deleted] I dont' think Matt is claiming that companies have 'no right' to use the ROM space. He's referring to Apple specifications rules warning that it's not guarenteed to be future compatible. Also, who would have thought, 10 years ago, that a PC would have half a meg of ROM space? Compare the //e to the GS: The GS has over 1500% more ROM than the //e. >-Rich-@cup.portal.com ---------------------------------------- BITNET-- mquinn@utcvm <------------send files here pro-line-- mquinn@pro-gsplus.cts.com
dzimmerman@gnh-tff.cts.com (Daniel Zimmerman) (06/22/91)
jeffb@world.std.com (Jeffrey T Berntsen) writes: > mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) writes: > > >All ROM space is reserved for Apple and may not be used by third-party > >developers for any reason. > > Huh? I thought Apple had published specifications for using part of this > space as a ROM disk. Am I imagining things? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey T. Berntsen | Looking for a good .sig > jeffb@world.std.com | > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I seem to remember that Apple reserved certain parts of the ROM addresses, but left the rest open... From the "Technical Introduction To The Apple IIGS", by Addison-Wesley - Page 18, "In addition to expansion RAM, the memory expansion cards can also have up to a megabyte of ROM. The additional ROM occupies memory from bank $FD downward to bank $F0. Portions of the top two banks of expansion ROM are allocated for system firmware expansion. The remaining expansion ROM is supported as a ROM disk - permanent storage for applications, which the system handles like disk files..." I don't know if that has changed since the ROM 3 came out (and used those 2 top banks to double the ROM size, I believe, but I could very well be wrong), but at least in 1986, when the "Technical Introduction" was written, ROMdisks were supported by Apple.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Daniel M. Zimmerman InterNet - dzimmerman@gnh-tff.cts.com TFF Enterprises America Online - Surak TFF CompuServe - 76407,2246 "Learn reason above all. Learn clear thought; learn to know what is from what seems to be, and what you wish to be. This is the key to everything: the truth of reality, the reality of truth. What IS will set you free." - Surak Of Vulcan
mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) (07/01/91)
In article <43524@cup.portal.com> -Rich-@cup.portal.com (Richard Sherman Payne) writes: > >>>if you have a gs ram ultra.... let me know if you are interested... >>>I'm trying to think of uses for the extra rom space. >>> >>All ROM space is reserved for Apple and may not be used by third-party >>developers for any reason. > >Matt, Apple can copyright their ROMS, but they do not own the ROM >*space*. I do not think it possible that Apple has plans for *all* 8MB >of ROM space, nor have I ever heard of any computer of any kind with >that much ROM. ROM's cost money, and board space, and it would take a >hell of a lot of code and *large* graphics to fill 8 MB. > >Now Apple can say that they will not support any such use, and that things >done in this space may break in the future. But I cannot see how they have >any say over others using it. Nor can I think of any legal reasons why I >should not put my own code there (not that I have any such plans). Correct >me if I you know different. > Hoo boy. As I was hitting the key to post this, I thought, "Wait, won't some people get confused about the ROM Disk space?" However, I foolishly decided everyone understood what Apple normally means by "reserved." My mistake, sorry. "Reserved" means "You can't use it except in the way Apple says or we reserve the right to make your product fail in spectacular ways." The ROM disk protocol is documented and works. What "reserved" means in this case is that you can't stick things in ROM that _aren't_ a ROM disk. Some people have wanted to stick their own tools, drivers, etc. in expansion ROM space and this is a no-no. If we ever expand the ROM (maybe through an upgrade of some kind), the future system software could really ruin your day. As far as "copyright" goes, no one even mentioned the word before the above post. We can't "copyright" expansion ROM space but we can make you wish you'd never thought of using it in a product. We can't "copyright" the RAM space either, but that doesn't mean we don't mark areas of RAM as "reserved". You can, according to U.S. Law, write a 65816 program that stores the value $EA in every possible location in RAM, including eventually over the program itself. There's no law against it, but it breaks Apple's rules. Like using expansion ROM space for other than ROM disks, this isn't necessarily a very bright idea. -- ============================================================================ Matt Deatherage, Developer Technical | The opinions expressed herein are Support, Apple Computer, Inc. | not those of Apple Computer, and Personal mail only, please. Thanks. | shame on you for thinking otherwise. ^^^^^^^^ Technical questions are not personal. Please post them instead. ============================================================================