apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) (06/11/91)
I am going to be getting a RamFAST SCSI Card and was wondering, how
many paritions will it allow ProDOS 8 to see? Is it like the Apple SCSI
card in only allowing Four (two in slot 7 and two in slot 6)? That is what
the Apple SCSI card did for me in ProDOS 8, and all other partitions I had
were not visible. So, what I'm asking is, if a parition exists in say slot
7.3 (not really though) will ProDOS 8 re-map it to a "readable" slot like
4.1 or whatever the case may be?
Also, since I love comparisons so much, what EXACTLY does RamFAST
SCSI support that Apple SCSI does not? I know RamFAST is better, but I'm
just wondering what the differences are. Thanks guys.
Amrit
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===============================================================================unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (06/11/91)
In article <1991Jun10.224148.24077@clark.edu> apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: > Also, since I love comparisons so much, what EXACTLY does RamFAST >SCSI support that Apple SCSI does not? I know RamFAST is better, but I'm >just wondering what the differences are. Thanks guys. I have never had a RamFAST SCSI card.. I do have a DMA SCSI card. From what I have read and heard here, the RamFAST certainly does not support any MORE types of devices. If anything, it supports LESS. I know that many if not all of these have been/will be supported in future releases of the RamFAST, but apparently there used to be (and may still be) conflicts between the RamFAST and: removable media (Syquest-based 45 meg cartridge drives; Floptical 20 meg floppies, etc), CD drives, scanners, tape drives, etc. While I don't know about the availability of drivers for all of those on the DMA SCSI card (Apple's), I know of no hardware technical limitation which precludes their use. I do know that cartridge drives work because I used one almost a year ago. -- /unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu Apple IIGS Forever! unknown@cats.ucsc.edu\ |WANT to help get ULTIMA VI //e or GS written?-mail me. CHEAP CD info-mail me.| \ It's a Late Night World.... Of Love /
shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) (06/11/91)
In article <1991Jun10.224148.24077@clark.edu> apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: > Also, since I love comparisons so much, what EXACTLY does RamFAST >SCSI support that Apple SCSI does not? I know RamFAST is better, but I'm >just wondering what the differences are. Thanks guys. Well, one difference worth considering is that we (Apple) will guarantee that our SCSI card will work with future system software. We can't make such a statement about anybody else's products. To be sure we go out of our way to make sure things work with third party products, but we can't guarantee products which we don't make. andy -- Andy Nicholas GEnie & America-Online: shrinkit Apple IIGS System Software CompuServe: 70771,2615 Apple Computer, Inc. InterNET: shrinkit@apple.com
gpoon@pro-micol.cts.com (Gregory Poon) (06/15/91)
In-Reply-To: message from apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com The RAMFast card has 256K of cache on it and a fast MPU which makes I/O to and from the hard drive much faster (though it makes the hard drive's own cache redundant). If I remember correctly, it can boost transfer rate up to 300K/sec as opposed to something like 100K/sec with the Apple card. It also allows you to have 12 partitions under ProDOS 8 plus a few non-essential goodies like a password protection option and a built-in tape backup software. With all that the RAMFast is supposed to be perfectly matched against the Apple card as far as compatibility goes. -------------------------------------------<Pro-micol (416) 731 - 3468>------ ProLine: gpoon@pro-micol Internet: generic!pnet91!pro-micol!gpoon@zoo.toronto.edu UUCP: utzoo!generic!pnet91!pro-micol!gpoon -------------------------------------------<24 hours 300/1200/2400 >------
georged@pro-harvest.cts.com (George Dybowski) (06/19/91)
In-Reply-To: message from shrinkit@Apple.COM I have found that GEOS from Berkley Software does not recognize the Apple SCSI card but does work with the Ramfast card. I called Berkley Software and verified this. I sold my Apple High Speed SCSI and purchased the Ramfast card ver. 2.00 and GEOS now recognizes the hard drive.
georged@pro-harvest.cts.com (George Dybowski) (06/19/91)
In-Reply-To: message from apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com I have the Ramfast card ver. 2.00 and you can have up to 12 partitions with this card. The Ramfast maps non-disk slots for partitioning a hard drive. Each slot can have 2 drives (drive 1 & 2). I am using an 80 Meg. hard drive partitioned into four drives so that I can use all of the hard drive.
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (06/20/91)
In article <8355.apple2.info.apple@pro-micol> gpoon@pro-micol.cts.com (Gregory Poon) writes: .In-Reply-To: message from apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com .The RAMFast card has 256K of cache on it and a fast MPU which makes I/O to .and from the hard drive much faster (though it makes the hard drive's own .cache redundant). If I remember correctly, it can boost transfer rate up to .300K/sec as opposed to something like 100K/sec with the Apple card. It also Apple's DMA card has a maximum throughput of 1 meg/second. That's what the documentation says, to tell you where I get my stats. What I am interested is in someone telling us users the bootup speed of a hard drive with a virgin copy of System 5.04 with a DMA card vs. the RamFAST card. And using the same interleave, just so the stats aren't "messed up" by attempting to maximize each card's stats. (That is, an interleave of 1 or 2, would be the best) Anyone interested in doing this and telling us how long it takes to boot? (When I time things, I time from the system beep upon turning on/resetting the machine to when you are in total control) .allows you to have 12 partitions under ProDOS 8 plus a few non-essential .goodies like a password protection option and a built-in tape backup software. .With all that the RAMFast is supposed to be perfectly matched against the .Apple card as far as compatibility goes. I thought that the RamFAST was supposed to be faster under ProDOS 8 too. -- /unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu Apple IIGS Forever! unknown@cats.ucsc.edu\ |WANT to help get ULTIMA VI //e or GS written?-mail me. CHEAP CD info-mail me.| \ It's a Late Night World.... Of Love /
andy@pro-palmtree.cts.com (Andy Stein) (06/21/91)
In-Reply-To: message from gpoon@pro-micol.cts.com
I thought the RamFast SCSI had a maximum transfer rate of 1 Megabyte
per second.jb10320@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jawaid Bazyar) (06/21/91)
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) writes: > Apple's DMA card has a maximum throughput of 1 meg/second. That's >what the documentation says, to tell you where I get my stats. The RAMFast also has a maximum theoretical transfer rate of 1 meg/second. Ya know why? The Apple II bus runs at 1 MHz. DMA can transfer 1 byte per bus cycle, thus the 1 meg/second. Whether or not you can actually achieve 1 meg/second transfer depends HIGHLY upon the application and GS/OS. > I thought that the RamFAST was supposed to be faster under ProDOS 8 >too. The RAMfast under ProDOS 8 is tremendous. When I first got my RAMfast, I was eager to test it out (my Quantum hadn't yet arrived) so I went over to Rob K's place and plugged it into his generic SCSI drive. Anyway, something was wrong with his installation of GS/OS at the time so I booted into Prodos 8. For some reason or other, after running a few things from Prodos 8, I shut the drive off. Then for an equally obscure reason, I continued to run things from Prodos 8. Everything I'd run was in the RAMfast's cache- Prodos, Basic.System, and a couple applications. It was neat (if not surprising). Anyway, Prodos 8 is speeded up so much compared to GS/OS because Prodos 8 doesn't have built in caching like GS/OS. -- Jawaid Bazyar | "Twenty seven faces- with their eyes turned to Graduated!/Comp Engineering | the sky. I have got a camera, and an airtight bazyar@cs.uiuc.edu | alibi.." Apple II Forever! | I need a job... Be privileged to pay me! :-)
andy@pro-palmtree.cts.com (Andy Stein) (06/22/91)
In-Reply-To: message from georged@pro-harvest.cts.com
Can the Apple IIGS, with GS/OS 5.0.4 (actually, System 5.0.4), address
more than 32 Megabytes of a hard drive partition? I keep on seeing my hard
disks partitioned to two volumes- one 32 Megs and the other 8 Megs- and I'd
rather just have one 40 Meg partition. I know this might cause problems
with Prodos 8 applications, but I really don't use that many.andy@pro-palmtree.cts.com (Andy Stein) (06/22/91)
In-Reply-To: message from unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU
Can the Apple High-Speed DMA SCSI Card handle a 1:1 interleave ratio?taob@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Brian Tao) (06/22/91)
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) writes: > What I am interested is in someone telling us users the bootup > speed of a hard drive with a virgin copy of System 5.04 with a DMA card vs. > the RamFAST card. And using the same interleave, just so the stats aren't > "messed up" by attempting to maximize each card's stats. (That is, an > interleave of 1 or 2, would be the best) > > Anyone interested in doing this and telling us how long it takes > to boot? (When I time things, I time from the system beep upon turning > on/resetting the machine to when you are in total control) I have a RAMFast + Quantum 105 at 1:1 interleave. Using a 12K look-ahead cache (on the RAMFast, not the drive), minimum GS/OS and the RAMFast driver, booting takes almost 7 seconds. I type PR#6 at the AppleSoft BASIC prompt and click the stopwatch as soon as I hit Return. I stop it when Prosel-16's Main Menu begins to appear on the text screen. I think the exact figure was 6.9 seconds.
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (06/23/91)
In article <1991Jun22.093448.10290@clark.edu> andy@pro-palmtree.cts.com (Andy Stein) writes: >Can the Apple IIGS, with GS/OS 5.0.4 (actually, System 5.0.4), address >more than 32 Megabytes of a hard drive partition? I keep on seeing my hard >disks partitioned to two volumes- one 32 Megs and the other 8 Megs- and I'd >rather just have one 40 Meg partition. I know this might cause problems >with Prodos 8 applications, but I really don't use that many. Yes, but only if one accesses the disk directly via the low-level SCSI interface, not as a filesystem. If GS/OS's "High Sierra" FST supported writing as well as reading, you could use that, but it doesn't so you can't. The only supported read/write disk filesystem format is ProDOS, and the ProDOS filesystem has an inherent design limit of 32MB. This has nothing to do with whether or not you use ProDOS-8 to access the filesystem; it is inherent in the data organization. Perhaps the rumored forthcoming IIGS System Disk 6.0 will provide some FST that solves this (real and annoying) problem.
gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (06/23/91)
In article <1991Jun22.151841.13469@clark.edu> andy@pro-palmtree.cts.com (Andy Stein) writes: >Can the Apple High-Speed DMA SCSI Card handle a 1:1 interleave ratio? ? The SCSI Card does not care -- that's the business of the disk device and its controller. The Advanced Disk Utilities certainly allow you to format the device at a 1:1 ratio, which is how all my SCSI disks are formatted. (Disks that have track buffer caches in the controller might as well be formatted 1:1.)
unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The Unknown User) (06/23/91)
In article <1991Jun22.151841.13469@clark.edu> andy@pro-palmtree.cts.com (Andy Stein) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from unknown@ucscb.UCSC.EDU > Can the Apple High-Speed DMA SCSI Card handle a 1:1 interleave ratio? I don't know what you mean by "handle" but in 5.04, when you format/partition a hard drive, you get to choose between 1:1 and 2:1 interleave... -- /unknown@ucscb.ucsc.edu Apple IIGS Forever! unknown@cats.ucsc.edu\ |WANT to help get ULTIMA VI //e or GS written?-mail me. CHEAP CD info-mail me.| \ It's a Late Night World.... Of Love /
shrinkit@Apple.COM (Andrew Nicholas) (06/23/91)
In article <1991Jun22.151841.13469@clark.edu> andy@pro-palmtree.cts.com (Andy Stein) writes: > Can the Apple High-Speed DMA SCSI Card handle a 1:1 interleave ratio? Yes. andy -- Andy Nicholas GEnie & America-Online: shrinkit Apple IIGS System Software CompuServe: 70771,2615 Apple Computer, Inc. InterNET: shrinkit@apple.com
andy@pro-palmtree.cts.com (Andy Stein) (06/24/91)
In-Reply-To: message from jb10320@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Would GS/OS be faster with the RamFast SCSI Card if GS/OS's cache were
disabled from the Control Panel?gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) (06/26/91)
In article <1991Jun25.070143.9288@clark.edu> andy@pro-palmtree.cts.com (Andy Stein) writes: > Would GS/OS be faster with the RamFast SCSI Card if GS/OS's cache were >disabled from the Control Panel? Such questions are always application and system dependent; however, I would expect for many applications a slight (probably unmeasurable) LOSS of speed upon disabling the GS/OS cache, even for a caching SCSI interface and/or disk controller.
mattd@Apple.COM (Matt Deatherage) (07/01/91)
In article <1991Jun25.070143.9288@clark.edu> andy@pro-palmtree.cts.com (Andy Stein) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from jb10320@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu > > Would GS/OS be faster with the RamFast SCSI Card if GS/OS's cache were >disabled from the Control Panel? An interesting question. I'll try to keep the hopefully interesting answer short. First, it's entirely theoretical, because you _can't_ disable the GS/OS cache from the Control Panel. Even when you turn it to 0K, GS/OS keeps a minimum of 16K cache for it's own use. More about this mechanism can be found in my article on the subject in _develop_ #2, the text of which has been on all the Developer CDs (and _develop_ CDs) since then. Second, it's possible that it would be a little faster, but it's hard to tell. Most of the benefit we see from the cache in general GS/OS usage comes from the FSTs (well, "FST" since we're probably not talking about High Sierra here) which manage to cache "system" blocks automatically. Things such as directories and bit-maps which the FST is likely to need fairly often are cached, because when the FST asks the driver to read the directory/bitmap information, it requests that the driver cache the block. All caching is done at the driver level -- all other parts of the system merely request that drivers cache blocks if they can. The driver may always refuse. The 5.25" driver always refuses, for example, because it has problems determining when disks are switched (and therefore, when to flush the cache). For not caching to be faster than caching, the driver in question would always have to be able to return the information from the device faster than it would take to locate the block in the cache bucket chain and use 65816 instructions to move it to the proper location. For a RAMFast, this might be possible if the cache on the card can DMA any block on the disk into memory without using any seeks. If the request is likely to cause a seek, though, the cache will likely be faster. BTW, since caching is done at the driver level, the RAMFast people could fairly easily build a driver that doesn't use caching and gauge the performance difference. (Presuming, of course, that their existing driver does use the GS/OS cache -- adding it would be harder than removing what's already there.) -- ============================================================================ Matt Deatherage, Developer Technical | The opinions expressed herein are Support, Apple Computer, Inc. | not those of Apple Computer, and Personal mail only, please. Thanks. | shame on you for thinking otherwise. ^^^^^^^^ Technical questions are not personal. Please post them instead. ============================================================================