AC%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA (01/12/84)
From: Anthony J. Courtemanche <AC%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA> My point was not that planets have rights. My point is that ruining the earth is not a good basis for trying things out on another planet. Until Mankind can restore what he has destroyed, and DOES RESTORE HIS DESTRUCTION, I don't think he is in any shape to try and start anew somewhere else. I would rather wait till we prove to ourselves that we can be responsible with our world before spreading our cancer to another one. Would you like to prolong man's survival at the expence of disposible planets or would you like a responsible civilization that can survive with what it has? I prefer the latter. Anthony ac@mit-oz -------
kcarroll@utzoo.UUCP (Kieran A. Carroll) (01/16/84)
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"Would you like to prolong man's survival at the expence (sic) of
disposible planets or would you like a responsible civilization
that can survive with what it has? I prefer the latter"
What does mankind have? In your view, one body per person, and the rest
is all on loan. Well, I'm afraid that we cannot survive on just that;
>by definition< Life cannot exist without "wasting" some things
(my definition, that's whose!). One such thing is energy; as living beings,
we are meta-stable regions of low entropy in a region of higher entropy,
maintaining a (local) violation of the laws of thermodynamics by
consuming and excreting energy, among other things. The source of that
energy is the sun, which is being destroyed on a massive scale just so that
we can maintain our wretched, cancerous civilazation (if you want to be
that anthropocentric; the insects of the world probably think the sun
burns mostly for >them<, and there are more of them than of us, so
who are we to argue?). If the sun was a just-failed star, like Jupiter,
would you object to igniting it so that we could continue our fusion-driven
lives? Or would you join the "Save the Sun" lobby? Of course, the question
doesn't arise, since the sun is already burning, so it's all right.
After all, if somebody's home is burning down there's nothing wrong
with going over and roasting some weiners in front of the fire, is there?
Or maybe there is? But if it's all right that the sun should burn,
then why shouldn't Jupiter? Just because "mankind hasn't gotten his act
together, and so doesn't deserve to be allowed out of his playpen"?
A question: if some way was found to damp out the sun's fusion, would
you push the button to turn the fires off, so that we could save the
pitifully few billion trillion tons of hydrogen and helium that are left?
I'm sorry for puttiing words into your mouth, in this message,
but you seemed to be saying much the same in your own messages,
only in a less extreme form. Extreme cases have their uses,
though, in exploring the limits of validity of arguments.
-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarrollgam@proper.UUCP (Gordon Moffett) (01/20/84)
> From: Anthony J. Courtemanche <AC%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA> > > Until Mankind can restore what he has destroyed, and DOES RESTORE HIS > DESTRUCTION, I don't think he is in any shape to try and start anew > somewhere else. I would rather wait till we prove to ourselves that > we can be responsible with our world before spreading our cancer to > another one. I used to hold this view, but now am resigned to the fact that if we "wait until we prove ourselves..." we will never get anything done. I just sounds like some kind of "you can't have your dessert unless you finish your vegtables" philosophy, which I reject. Continuation of this topic should occur in net.flame, not here.
wsc@rabbit.UUCP (q) (02/02/84)
I agree with the second statement of planet rights. If we all hang around trying to clean up here, it's just going to get too crowded, and of course wherever we go, things will eventually turn sour.Everything good eventually turns bad.There hasn't been one civilization that has had a spotless record.If we leave for the stars, then those that WANT to stay behind and clean up can, but there's no sense keeping the people that don't want to stay, they'll just ruin it for those who do want to clean up what they've done wrong.