jprice@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu (John Price) (08/09/90)
Hi all:
This is almost as much a Mac question as it is a TeX question...
Does the latest version of TeXtures work with Adobe Type Manager?
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John Price | Internet: jprice@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu
5-145 Knudsen Hall | BITNET: price@uclaph
UCLA Dept. of Physics | DECnet: uclapp::jprice
Los Angeles, CA 90024-1547 | YellNet: 213-825-2259
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Where there is no solution, there is no problem.hodas@saul.cis.upenn.edu (Josh Hodas) (08/09/90)
In article <0093AE22.A6D58A80@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu> jprice@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu (John Price) writes: >Hi all: > > This is almost as much a Mac question as it is a TeX question... > > Does the latest version of TeXtures work with Adobe Type Manager? Well, it depends on what you mean, but the basic answer is yes. By that I mean that if you have some type 1 printer fonts and a TeX format (such as a customized LaTeX) that uses them, then these fonts will be rendered full resolution on screen and printer. Note, however, that the Computer Modern fonts that come with TeXtures, and the full set available separately for $85 dollars are just large bitmaps, they are not outline fonts. Blue Sky currently offers a postscript version of the CM fonts for $395 but they are Type 3 fonts. This means that they are not ATM compatible, and also that -- since they do not have hints -- they look good only on high resolution printers like linotronics. They hope to have a type 1 font set available in the next couple of months that will be ATM compatible and of good quality even at 300 dpi. Now, my question is does anyone know of another source for a set of Postscript type 1 TeX fonts. I have a custom LaTex set up to use Times/Helvetica/Courier (as well as some other combinations) but I don't know any way to get around the need for CM Math snd the line drawing fonts. Are there any options other than waiting for Blue Sky to get their type 1 fonts out? I really would like to reclaim the 23 megs of font space on my disk. Josh ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Josh Hodas Home Phone: (215) 222-7112 4223 Pine Street School Office Phone: (215) 898-2911 Philadelphia, PA 19104 New E-Mail Address: hodas@saul.cis.upenn.edu
jprice@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu (John Price) (08/09/90)
In article <27878@netnews.upenn.edu>, hodas@saul.cis.upenn.edu (Josh Hodas) writes: >In article <0093AE22.A6D58A80@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu> I write: >> Does the latest version of TeXtures work with Adobe Type Manager? >Well, it depends on what you mean, but the basic answer is yes. >By that I mean that if you have some type 1 printer fonts and a >TeX format (such as a customized LaTeX) that uses them, then these >fonts will be rendered full resolution on screen and printer. > >Note, however, that the Computer Modern fonts that come with >TeXtures, and the full set available separately for $85 dollars >are just large bitmaps, they are not outline fonts. This is approximately the answer I expected. My understanding (gained about 20 minutes before seeing this) is that TeXtures outputs Postscript, which is sent to non-postscript printers as a bitmap (I'm not sure about this, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong). If this is indeed the case, will Freedom of Press help here? I have heard that it can print postscript files to non-postscript devices. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Price | Internet: jprice@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu 5-145 Knudsen Hall | BITNET: price@uclaph UCLA Dept. of Physics | DECnet: uclapp::jprice Los Angeles, CA 90024-1547 | YellNet: 213-825-2259 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where there is no solution, there is no problem.
max@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Max Hailperin) (08/09/90)
In article <27878@netnews.upenn.edu> hodas@saul.cis.upenn.edu.UUCP (Josh Hodas) writes: >Are there any options other than waiting for Blue Sky to get their >type 1 fonts out? I really would like to reclaim the 23 megs of font >space on my disk. One easy option is just to trim down on your font set. You say you use LaTeX; I have a 2.4 Mb suitcase that has all the fonts that the normal LaTeX lfonts configuration needs at all the sizes it needs, asuming 300 dots per inch. Thus, unless you do things other than LaTeX, manually load additional fonts, or are picky about the visual quality of your screen previewing at other than 416%, you can cut your disk space by nearly a factor of ten. Note that you can't simultaneously use the screen-size and printer-size fonts anyway, because of limitations in the Mac font file format. I'm not sure how much additional disk space it would take if you could (or wanted two seperate suticases, one you used when previewing, one when printing), but presumably no more than another 2.4 Mb tops, so you'ld still be looking at a substantion savings. I haven't bothered to put such a suitcase together because it doesn't seem worth the suitcase-switching hassles just for high-quality 100% previewing. I either want a long view of the general page layout, in which case scrunched fonts are ok, or I want to make sure every pixel is in the right place in some small area, in which case the 416% previewing is the right thing.
barry@reed.UUCP (Barry Smith) (08/09/90)
In article <0093AE22.A6D58A80@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu> jprice@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu (John Price) writes: > Does the latest version of Textures work with Adobe Type Manager? Yes. It's especially nice with our new Type 1 CM fonts. Barry Smith, Blue Sky Research barry@reed.edu
hodas@saul.cis.upenn.edu (Josh Hodas) (08/09/90)
In article <0093AE45.4DA805A0@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu> jprice@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu (John Price) writes: >In article <27878@netnews.upenn.edu>, hodas@saul.cis.upenn.edu (Josh Hodas) writes: >>In article <0093AE22.A6D58A80@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu> I write: >>> Does the latest version of TeXtures work with Adobe Type Manager? >>Well, it depends on what you mean, but the basic answer is yes. >>By that I mean that if you have some type 1 printer fonts and a >>TeX format (such as a customized LaTeX) that uses them, then these >>fonts will be rendered full resolution on screen and printer. >> >>Note, however, that the Computer Modern fonts that come with >>TeXtures, and the full set available separately for $85 dollars >>are just large bitmaps, they are not outline fonts. > > This is approximately the answer I expected. My understanding >(gained about 20 minutes before seeing this) is that TeXtures outputs >Postscript, which is sent to non-postscript printers as a bitmap (I'm not >sure about this, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong). > > If this is indeed the case, will Freedom of Press help here? I >have heard that it can print postscript files to non-postscript devices. Whoops, now I see why you were asking in the first place. You were interested in ATM because you want to print to a non-PostScript printer. Well, the issue is moot (about ATM) because TeXtures prints fine to quickdraw printers on it's own. While I have never tested it on an Imagewriter, I print all my stuff on a DeskWriter, and before that I was using a deskjet with the grappler. In each case the output is beautiful. I believe it does work with any quickdraw printer, and will use the fonts needed to get the best the printer will do. This of course is not the case with the public domain OzTeX which prints only postscript. Although I do believe someone has done a dvi printer for it for the imagewriter. Basically I love TeXtures. Granted that our Sun 490 at school is faster, but I think the previewing and editing on my IIci is better. Josh ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Josh Hodas Home Phone: (215) 222-7112 4223 Pine Street School Office Phone: (215) 898-2911 Philadelphia, PA 19104 New E-Mail Address: hodas@saul.cis.upenn.edu
jprice@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu (John Price) (08/09/90)
In article <27892@netnews.upenn.edu>, hodas@saul.cis.upenn.edu (Josh Hodas) writes: >In article <0093AE45.4DA805A0@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu> I write: >>In article <27878@netnews.upenn.edu>, hodas@saul.cis.upenn.edu (Josh Hodas) writes: >>>Note, however, that the Computer Modern fonts that come with >>>TeXtures, and the full set available separately for $85 dollars >>>are just large bitmaps, they are not outline fonts. >>If this is indeed the case, will Freedom of Press help here? I >>have heard that it can print postscript files to non-postscript devices. >Whoops, now I see why you were asking in the first place. You were interested >in ATM because you want to print to a non-PostScript printer. Well, the >issue is moot (about ATM) because TeXtures prints fine to quickdraw printers >on it's own. While I have never tested it on an Imagewriter, I print all >my stuff on a DeskWriter, and before that I was using a deskjet with the >grappler. In each case the output is beautiful. I believe it does work >with any quickdraw printer, and will use the fonts needed to get the best >the printer will do. I have run TeXtures on a Mac here at school, with a Deskwriter, and the output is indeed very good for a bitmap font. However, the Deskwriter is capable of much better. Using the Deskwriter fonts, (which, I believe, are outline fonts), the quality is noticeably better. So, I *really* want to do it this way, if I can. I have spoken (via Email) with martinh@manresa.sei.com, who has apparently done this. Basically, it seems to amount simply to making some new font definitions, to point to the ATM fonts. Once I convince myself that it really is as easy as he says it is, I'll post the complete method, along with any new files I create to use the outline fonts. Or, if anyone else has any other information to offer, I haven't bought anything yet, so I'm still open to suggestions... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Price | Internet: jprice@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu 5-145 Knudsen Hall | BITNET: price@uclaph UCLA Dept. of Physics | DECnet: uclapp::jprice Los Angeles, CA 90024-1547 | YellNet: 213-825-2259 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where there is no solution, there is no problem.
dhosek@sif.claremont.edu (Hosek, Donald A.) (08/09/90)
In article <0093AE7D.ADDF3D20@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu>, jprice@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu (John Price) writes... > I have run TeXtures on a Mac here at school, with a Deskwriter, and >the output is indeed very good for a bitmap font. However, the Deskwriter >is capable of much better. Using the Deskwriter fonts, (which, I believe, >are outline fonts), the quality is noticeably better. So, I *really* want >to do it this way, if I can. Actually, if all goes well, the best quality is given by bitmap fonts. Because Textures goes through the standard Mac printer driving software, I don't think it can take advantage of the full benefits of the DVItype rounding algorithim (some subtle interletter positioning is possible as anyone who has read and understood DVItype... I'm still realizing the immense benefits possible). All of this, however depends on a couple of things: (1) that the font is available AT THE SIZE REQUESTED. I don't like the fact that the Mac printer drivers will scale a bitmap font for you. This is why one gets those ugly chunk-style letters. (As an aside, this sort of behavior is not permitted to drivers which conform to the "Level 0" driver standard nearing completion). (2) The font is tuned to the printer technology. Bitmaps for, say, a Dataproducts printer are vastly different for those for an Apple Laserwriter, even though the resolution is the same (see the recent discussions about TrueType vs. PostScript in comp.lang.postscript and comp.fonts for information on this) and (3) the fact that the pixel spacing of a letter is not necessarily the TFM width rounded to pixels. Coincidentally, the 3 items are listed in order of glaring visual affect. Textures deals with 1 fine if you order the CM fonts package and 2 is not an issue as long as you stick with canon-engine laser printers (most people do), but I don't think that item 3 is possible given the restrictions that the Mac printing interface gives (if I'm wrong on this and Textures does handle this properly, I'm sure I'll be set straight on this issue). Note, however, that the output from Textures is still likely to be of quality equivalent to or better than output from other Mac applications. -dh --- Don Hosek TeX, LaTeX, and Metafont support, consulting dhosek@ymir.claremont.edu installation and production work. dhosek@ymir.bitnet Free Estimates. uunet!jarthur!ymir Phone: 714-625-0147 finger dhosek@ymir.claremont.edu for more info
barry@reed.UUCP (Barry Smith) (08/10/90)
In article <0093AE7D.ADDF3D20@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu> jprice@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu (John Price) writes: > I have run Textures on a Mac here at school, with a Deskwriter, and >the output is indeed very good for a bitmap font. However, the Deskwriter >is capable of much better. Using the Deskwriter fonts, (which, I believe, >are outline fonts), the quality is noticeably better. > It's interesting to see this viewpoint, which seems to be widely held: that "outline" fonts are somehow qualitatively superior to "bitmap" fonts. This point of view has often been expressed to me by people who, on questioning, already have the understanding that ALL fonts printed to a raster/matrix printer MUST, at some point, become "bitmap" fonts. So what are they seeing? Two possibilities: (1) they're really comparing type faces, not renderings, e.g., Computer Modern Roman vs. Times-Roman; or (2) they prefer a bolder typeface, which most outline renderings will give in comparison to Metafont renderings of Computer Modern, which is a relatively delicate face. [A 300 dpi rendering of CMR10 that approximates the "true color" of the face will appear very light in comparison to, say, Times Roman as typically rendered.] With specific reference to the DeskWriter, I've found that smooth, hard-finish paper (Hammermill Laser Plus, for example) improves the print quality dramatically compared to typical copier bond, much more of a difference than the typical laser printer. In any case, Textures can (1) work with ATM, and the DeskWriter; (2) work with the DeskWriter outline fonts, without ATM; (3) work with the DeskWriter, and MF-rendered CM fonts, and (4) work with ATM, and our CM/PostScript Type 1 outline fonts. ["All of the above" is the correct answer.] Barry Smith, Blue Sky Research barry@reed.edu
barry@reed.UUCP (Barry Smith) (08/10/90)
In article <8068@jarthur.Claremont.EDU> dhosek@sif.claremont.edu writes: >Actually, if all goes well, the best quality is given by bitmap >fonts. Because Textures goes through the standard Mac printer >driving software, I don't think it can take advantage of the full >benefits of the DVItype rounding algorithim >(if I'm >wrong on this and Textures does handle this properly, I'm sure >I'll be set straight on this issue). OK, let me set Don straight here... Textures' positioning algorithm is not limited by our use of the standard Macintosh printer drivers. Barry Smith, Blue Sky Research barry@reed.edu
jprice@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu (John Price) (08/10/90)
In article <8068@jarthur.Claremont.EDU>, dhosek@sif.claremont.edu (Hosek, Donald A.) writes: >In article <0093AE7D.ADDF3D20@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu>, jprice@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu (John Price) writes... >> I have run TeXtures on a Mac here at school, with a Deskwriter, and >>the output is indeed very good for a bitmap font. However, the Deskwriter >>is capable of much better. Using the Deskwriter fonts, (which, I believe, >>are outline fonts), the quality is noticeably better. So, I *really* want >>to do it this way, if I can. > >Actually, if all goes well, the best quality is given by bitmap >fonts. ... >All of this, however depends on a couple of things: >(1) that the font is available AT THE SIZE REQUESTED. The only problem with this is, suppose you need something in a font that isn't available? I may get the exact numbers wrong, but the fonts that come with TeXtures are 10, 12, 14, 18, and 24 pt. 14pt may be missing; I'm too far away from our Mac to go look it up. However, when you load fonts for TeX, the common sizes are 10 pt scaled \magstep1-\magstep5, or 10, 12, 14, 17, 21, and 25pt. So, some rescaling of fonts is necessary. This is where the bad quality comes in, as Don rightly points out. >(2) The font is tuned to the printer technology. This is a point I hadn't considered. Since I know nothing about it, though, I'll take your word for it. >(3) the fact that the pixel spacing of a letter is not >necessarily the TFM width rounded to pixels. This is something I've seen in practice. Spacing between letters and words is very different on TeX output from our Mac and that from our VAX. All the layout appears to be the same - in other words, a given page from one implementation will have the same content as that from the other implementation - but the spacing on the pages is different. Earlier today, by the way, I tried assigning one of the outline fonts to TeXtures. The command I used was something like \font\twelverm = Times at 12pt It worked beautifully. The output was as good as I would normally have expected from the Deskwriter. The layout, however, was different, which I attribute to differences between the Mac's Times font and cmr10 scaled\magstep1 (there's a reason for using this instead of cmr12, but I forget what it is...) There appear, however, to be incompatibilities between TeXtures and "normal" Mac fonts. I'm still working on it, and I'll let y'all know if I come up with anything brilliant. Or, even if anyone else *tells* me something brilliant... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Price | Internet: jprice@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu 5-145 Knudsen Hall | BITNET: price@uclaph UCLA Dept. of Physics | DECnet: uclapp::jprice Los Angeles, CA 90024-1547 | YellNet: 213-825-2259 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where there is no solution, there is no problem.
npreyer@mit-caf.MIT.EDU (Norris Preyer) (08/10/90)
>In article <0093AE7D.ADDF3D20@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu>, jprice@uclapp.physics.u cla.edu (John Price) writes... >> I have run TeXtures on a Mac here at school, with a Deskwriter, and >>the output is indeed very good for a bitmap font. However, the Deskwriter >>is capable of much better. > >Actually, if all goes well, the best quality is given by bitmap >fonts. Because Textures goes through the standard Mac printer >driving software, I don't think it can take advantage of the full >benefits of the DVItype rounding algorithim (some subtle >interletter positioning is possible as anyone who has read and >understood DVItype... I'm still realizing the immense benefits >possible). All of this, however depends on a couple of things: [many interesting details omitted] > >Don Hosek TeX, LaTeX, and Metafont support, consulting Actually, TeXtures does have noticeable spacing problems printing to a Deskwriter (check out "book" and other double-o words) which vanish when it previews or prints to a laserwriter. OzTeX, combined with the excellent DVIM72-Mac quickdraw printing program, does not suffer this problem; quickdraw and postscript outputs are identical (and excellent). --Norris Preyer (npreyer@caf.mit.edu) <enough wasted space to get pnews to post?>
jprice@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu (John Price) (08/11/90)
In article <15320@reed.UUCP>, barry@reed.UUCP (Barry Smith) writes: >In article <0093AE7D.ADDF3D20@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu> I write: >Using the Deskwriter fonts, (which, I believe, >>are outline fonts), the quality is noticeably better. >> >It's interesting to see this viewpoint, which seems to be widely held: that >"outline" fonts are somehow qualitatively superior to "bitmap" fonts. The reason for the superiority, in my case anyway, was (as Don Hosek has already pointed out) due to the rescaling of the bitmap fonts. I believe that had I used cmr12 instead of cmr10 scaled\magstep1, I would not have seen this problem. I will check it later and inform y'all if this is not so. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Price | Internet: jprice@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu 5-145 Knudsen Hall | BITNET: price@uclaph UCLA Dept. of Physics | DECnet: uclapp::jprice Los Angeles, CA 90024-1547 | YellNet: 213-825-2259 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where there is no solution, there is no problem.
barry@reed.UUCP (Barry Smith) (08/13/90)
In article <4928@mit-caf.MIT.EDU> npreyer@mit-caf.UUCP (Norris Preyer) writes: > >Actually, TeXtures does have noticeable spacing problems printing to >a Deskwriter (check out "book" and other double-o words) ACTUALLY, this spacing problem was corrected some time ago. If your copy of Textures has this problem, please contact us for font upgrades. [By the way: the official spelling is "Textures"; pass it on. Thanks!] Barry Smith, Blue Sky Research barry@reed.edu
simon@alberta.uucp (Simon Tortike) (09/06/90)
In article <27878@netnews.upenn.edu> hodas@saul.cis.upenn.edu.UUCP (Josh Hodas) writes: **** questions about CM fonts in PostScript.... ... and then >In article <0093AE22.A6D58A80@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu> jprice@uclapp.physics.ucla.edu (John Price) writes: >>Hi all: .... some answers .... > >Are there any options other than waiting for Blue Sky to get their >type 1 fonts out? I really would like to reclaim the 23 megs of font >space on my disk. How about reclaiming 15 Mbytes from your bitmapped fonts (I presume you are talking about the Blue Sky release)? If you buy the Suitcase II utility from Software Supply, a little program called Font Harmony comes with it. It compresses fonts for use with the system, all within the same suitcase file (Font/DA Mover file). Run your Blue Sky fonts through it and leave the `harmonized' fonts in your TeX fonts folder where TeXtures would normally find them. I did this months ago on a suggestion from Doug Henderson of Blue Sky. The fonts now occupy a puny 8 Mbytes or so. I have noticed no difference in speed when TeXtures access the fonts (on my Mac IIx), from before when they were unchanged. Incidently, I have the Blue Sky beta release of the (Type 3) Adobe CM fonts, and the LaserWriter resolution is not as bad as some people have indicated. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Josh Hodas Home Phone: (215) 222-7112 >4223 Pine Street School Office Phone: (215) 898-2911 >Philadelphia, PA 19104 New E-Mail Address: hodas@saul.cis.upenn.edu ------------------- W. Simon Tortike, | tel : 403/492-3338 Dept of Mining, Metallurgical | fax : 403/492-7219 and Petroleum Engineering, | CA*net : simon@cs.UAlberta.CA University of Alberta, | uucp : simon@alberta.uucp Edmonton, AB, CANADA T6G 2G6. | CA*net : simon@mmpe.mineral.UAlberta.CA
christos@theory.tn.cornell.edu (Christos S. Zoulas) (01/13/91)
Hello, I am trying to include encapsulated postscript files inside my LaTeX document on the mac, using Textures. Is there something like psfig for the mac that computes the bounding box automatically so I don't have to do it by hand all the time? Thanks in advance christos -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Christos Zoulas | 389 Theory Center, Electrical Engineering, | | christos@ee.cornell.edu | Cornell University, Ithaca NY 14853. | | christos@crnlee.bitnet | Phone: (607) 255 0302 | Fax: (607) 254 4565 |