haccme@milton.u.washington.edu (Thomas Ridgeway) (03/12/91)
In article <SPQR.91Mar10165938@manutius.ecs.soton.ac.uk> spqr@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) writes: >In article <DAMIAN.CUGLEY.91Mar8170248@msc0.prg.ox.ac.uk> Damian.Cugley@prg.ox.ac.uk (Damian Cugley) writes: > > Also: PLEASE use a descriptive subject line, and PLEASE include "LaTeX" > if you are using LaTeX, which is very different from TeX proper, > >I assume from this that Damian does his typesetting using the >primitive macros built into TeX? This is very impressive, and I am >sure more details would be of interest. Myself, I use a set of macros >which Leslie Lamport wrote, which sit over the primitives. I believe >others use a set of macros written by Donald Knuth. Neither are, of >course, `proper'. > >Sebastian Well now, I like LaTeX too, for some purposes; but so far as nomenclature goes, let us consult the Master: [TeXbook, preface, first words]: Gentle Reader: This is a handbook about TeX . . . The TeXbook, as is well known, describes TeX primitives and plain TeX macros. On the authority of the words of the author of TeX, we may conclude that TeX (unqualified) refers to TeX primitives and the plain macros. Even worse, we might conclude that TeX unqualified refers to TeX with am or cm fonts, since many characteristics originally introduced as ``TeX'' features, such as the ligaturing of those cute little quotes I just used, are actually features of the ligtables specific to am/cm fonts, features which may not be present in other fonts. Eye for Eye; Quibble for Quibble. Tom - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Thomas Ridgeway, Director, Humanities and Arts Computing Center/NorthWest Computing Support Center 35 Thomson Hall, University of Washington, DR-10 Seattle, WA 98195 phone: (206)-543-4218 Internet: ridgeway@blackbox.hacc.washington.edu - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
eijkhout@s41.csrd.uiuc.edu (Victor Eijkhout) (03/12/91)
haccme@milton.u.washington.edu (Thomas Ridgeway) writes: >Well now, I like LaTeX too, for some purposes; but so far as nomenclature >goes, let us consult the Master: >[TeXbook, preface, first words]: > Gentle Reader: This is a handbook about TeX . . . >The TeXbook, as is well known, describes TeX primitives and plain TeX macros. >On the authority of the words of the author of TeX, we may conclude that >TeX (unqualified) refers to TeX primitives and the plain macros. Well, well, well, ... If I was allowed to prove a point in a scientific argument by selective quoting and claiming stuff to 'well known', my life would be a lot easier. For one, the introduction to the TeX book also says that the book contains lies, but that more exact information is to be found later. In this case, take pages 10/11, where Knuth explains for the first time that some commands are not primitives. And if you'll allow me a quote that proves *my* point: ``When this manual says that something is part of 'plain TeX', it means that TeX doesn't insist on doing things exactly that way; a person could change the rules by ... '' And indeed, Knuth is rather careful to say 'plain TeX' whenever the difference matters. > Even worse, >we might conclude that TeX unqualified refers to TeX with am or cm fonts, >since many characteristics originally introduced as ``TeX'' features, >such as the ligaturing of those cute little quotes I just used, are actually >features of the ligtables specific to am/cm fonts, features which may not >be present in other fonts. And again no. Somewhere in the TeXbook Knuth makes quite clear that all of this is a property of the fonts, not of TeX proper. In fact I defie you to find even white lies about ligatures in any chapter after ch 9, which is where he first discusses fonts (I mean, let's be reasonable, you can't expect Knuth to be explicit about this before he discusses fonts). And in order to make my point, let me quote from chapter 9: ``The plain TeX format of appendix B is based on the Computer Modern fonts ...'' ``Let's begin with the rules for the normal roman font (\rm or \tenrm); plain TeX will use this font for everything unless you specify otherwise.'' And then follow the examples of ligatures. Looks to me like he isn't deceiving anyone here. >Eye for Eye; Quibble for Quibble. Yeah! Let's fight! >Thomas Ridgeway Victor.