[comp.periphs.scsi] ST02 - doesn't work with ProDrive Quantum S80 - Why ?

angelini@apollo.HP.COM (Bob Angelini) (01/17/91)

The Seagate ST01 and ST02 SCSI controllers will only work with
Seagate SCSI drives.

tin@smsc.sony.com (Tin "Man" Le) (01/18/91)

In article <4f429ab7.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> angelini@apollo.HP.COM (Bob Angelini) writes:
>
>The Seagate ST01 and ST02 SCSI controllers will only work with
>Seagate SCSI drives.


  I can't let misinformation go by.  The ST0X will work with any SCSI
  drives.  The ROM BIOS on the board is for DOS to make it look like
  an ST506 controller.  Seagate drives (that is supposedly "specially"
  prepared for the ST0X ctrlrs), simply comes pre-formatted for DOS and
  has partitioning software on them.

  That is about the only difference between "those" drives and SCSI
  drives from other manufacturers.

  I have personally used (am using) several different non-Seagate SCSI
  drive with an ST02.

-- Tin

-- 
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chuckl@chips.com (Chuck Linsley) (01/18/91)

In article <THOGER.91Jan17041919@solan16.solan.unit.no> thoger@solan.unit.no (Terje Th|gersen) writes:
>The manual states that the ST0x will only drive Seagate HDs. I've no idea
>why, or how they figure out that it is a Seagate drive hooked up (anybody
>know?), but this is intentional, something they've added through that BIOS.

I don't know if this is true, but if it is, it would be quite easy to
do.  Issue an INQUIRY command, and look for Seagate's manufacturer
code in the return data.  You can even look for specific model numbers.
We have used this technique in our code to avoid problems due to severe 
brain damage in specific drives, e.g. Seagate ST277N.

Chuck Linsley
chuckl@chips.com
Any opinions expressed above are those of the author, and not
official policies of Chips and Technologies, Inc.

kraco@motcid.UUCP (Carl Kraco) (01/18/91)

tin@smsc.sony.com (Tin "Man" Le) writes:

>In article <4f429ab7.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> angelini@apollo.HP.COM (Bob Angelini) writes:
>>
>>The Seagate ST01 and ST02 SCSI controllers will only work with
>>Seagate SCSI drives.


>  I can't let misinformation go by.  The ST0X will work with any SCSI
>  drives.  The ROM BIOS on the board is for DOS to make it look like
>  an ST506 controller.  Seagate drives (that is supposedly "specially"
>  prepared for the ST0X ctrlrs), simply comes pre-formatted for DOS and
>  has partitioning software on them.

>  That is about the only difference between "those" drives and SCSI
>  drives from other manufacturers.

>  I have personally used (am using) several different non-Seagate SCSI
>  drive with an ST02.

>-- Tin


I agree with Tin.  When the ST01 first arrived on the market, I 
grabbed one to use with a MAXTOR 4170 and MAXTOR 3x80s.  At first,
however, I was having trouble with the timing on the SCSI bus.
After several calls to SEAGATE to discuss the problems, one of the 
technical people at SEAGATE explained that the timing was controlled
from the ST01 BIOS and that it may not work with all SCSI drives.
He said that the BIOS on the ST02 had released the timing constraints
a bit and should work with ALMOST any drive.  As a result, Seagate sent
me a new BIOS EPROM that was labelled ST02 V3.1.  This cured all my problems
.  I have even tested several other manufacturers drives without problems.

Carl.

mussar@bcars53.uucp (G. Mussar) (01/18/91)

In article <1991Jan18.003222.15824@smsc.sony.com> tin@smsc.sony.com (Tin "Man" Le) writes:
>In article <4f429ab7.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> angelini@apollo.HP.COM (Bob Angelini) writes:
>>
>>The Seagate ST01 and ST02 SCSI controllers will only work with
>>Seagate SCSI drives.
>
>
>  I can't let misinformation go by.  The ST0X will work with any SCSI
>  drives.  

Sigh, I guess I can't let misinformation go by either. You are both right and both
wrong.

The early version of the ST01 BIOS explicitly checked for Seagate drives and refused
to run on any others. Seagate has since upgraded the ROM BIOS and now the ST0x controllers
run with other vendors disks. Be aware that a number of disks do not work on ST0x
controllers. You should verify (by acutally trying) before purchase.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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ssingh@watserv1.waterloo.edu (The Sanj-Machine aka Ice) (01/27/91)

In article <1991Jan18.003222.15824@smsc.sony.com> tin@smsc.sony.com (Tin "Man" Le) writes:
>
>  I have personally used (am using) several different non-Seagate SCSI
>  drive with an ST02.
>

Chances are, you are not getting the performance you could be getting.
To paraphrase from comments last year on the ST-02. It is "an obsolete
Future Domain design that Seagate bought the rights to, and now bundle
with their systems." "It is dirt cheap." It is an 8-bit controller with
NO support from Unix vendors. It is okay if you intend to only run DOS/Windows.

But if you have high performance SCSI drives, look elsewhere. Only a 
multi-tasking system can take advantage of multi-threaded I/O that SCSI
is capable of providing anyway. And hence you need a host adapter that
is supported by the Unix people.



-- 
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$anjay $ingh     Fire & "Ice"     ssingh@watserv1.[u]waterloo.{edu|cdn}/[ca]
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mike@cimcor.mn.org (Michael Grenier) (01/28/91)

(The Sanj-Machine aka Ice):
> In article <1991Jan18.003222.15824@smsc.sony.com> tin@smsc.sony.com (Tin "Man" Le) writes:
>>
>>  I have personally used (am using) several different non-Seagate SCSI
>>  drive with an ST02.
>>
> 
> Chances are, you are not getting the performance you could be getting.
> To paraphrase from comments last year on the ST-02. It is "an obsolete
> Future Domain design that Seagate bought the rights to, and now bundle
> with their systems." "It is dirt cheap." It is an 8-bit controller with
> NO support from Unix vendors. It is okay if you intend to only run DOS/Windows.
> 
> But if you have high performance SCSI drives, look elsewhere. Only a 


I couldn't let that pass!

The ST-02 controller may be cheap but its not that bad...certainly
better than ESDI and RLL. 

There is a PD UNIX driver for the board which works fine. Using the
raw device and big blocks a friend with a 25MhZ board can transfer
at rates around 1.2 Megabytes per second to a Wren IV using
    dd if=/dev/rscsi0s0 of=/dev/null bs=100k count=...

which is much faster than many get with the Adaptec 1542. 

I realize that vendor support is nice and thus I would recommend
a supported card particularly if it is the only controller card
you will use. The ST-01 is a nice choice though if you are going
to boot a MFM/RLL/ESDI drive.

Remember a few points :
    SCSI (for almost all drives) is an 8 bit protocol. So 16 bit
   boards may not buy you that much.

    The AT bus even in 8 bit mode is as fast as most scsi drives
   in async mode.

    The ST-01/02 controllers controller the wait line on the bus
    to sync the transfer from the card to memory - relieving the 
    need for the software driver to poll the card to see if more
    date is ready...this also speeds up transfers. In fact,
    because you can use the REP memory move instructions, transfers
    move as fast 8-bit DMA.

    Cards like the Adaptec 1542 do not run in all motherboards
    (including the one I'm typing this message in at!).

I'm not saying that a $25 card like the ST-01 is better than
anything on the market and I certainly would not want to compare
it one on one with cards like the Adaptec with is fast bus mastering.
I'm just saying that it not as bad as many believe.

    -Mike Grenier
    mike@cimcor.mn.org

src@scuzzy.in-berlin.de (Heiko Blume) (01/30/91)

mike@cimcor.mn.org (Michael Grenier) writes:
>There is a PD UNIX driver for the board which works fine. Using the
>raw device and big blocks a friend with a 25MhZ board can transfer
>at rates around 1.2 Megabytes per second to a Wren IV using
>    dd if=/dev/rscsi0s0 of=/dev/null bs=100k count=...

>which is much faster than many get with the Adaptec 1542. 

hey, i get 1.5MB/s with the 1542 :-)
however, it's much more important how much you get through the
filesystem. try out the boonie file system benchmark and compare
it's output to this:

              -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random--
              -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks---
Machine    MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU  /sec %CPU
386/33-ISC 80   243 91.8   351 28.4   396 65.6   216 97.6   742 62.6  17.3 14.4

i'd be really interested in what you achieve with the st-02.

>Remember a few points :
>    SCSI (for almost all drives) is an 8 bit protocol. So 16 bit
>   boards may not buy you that much.
>    The AT bus even in 8 bit mode is as fast as most scsi drives
>   in async mode.

you miss an important point here. first you don't use drives in
async mode ;-), second the main advantage of 16bit and adapters like the
adaptec with bus master dma shows up when you have more than one
disk on it. 

>    Cards like the Adaptec 1542 do not run in all motherboards
>    (including the one I'm typing this message in at!).

that's the fault of your motherboard.

>I'm not saying that a $25 card like the ST-01 is better than
>anything on the market and I certainly would not want to compare
>it one on one with cards like the Adaptec with is fast bus mastering.
>I'm just saying that it not as bad as many believe.

i agree that for many people it suffices. it's a matter of costs too.
-- 
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