BEVANS@HMCVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU (Mathemagician) (02/20/90)
LCREW writes: >If your guest book and friendship registers don't include several people >from many different ethnic backgrounds, you're a white person turning into >chalk, vastly impoverished from the lack of nurture for which hundreds, >nay thousands of people of all colors have dreamed. Kind of a blanket statement, don't you think? While I admit that my friends definitely look the "white section of town," what makes you think that they don't have a varied culture as well? My own upbringing is a mixture of Greek and Norwegian heritage (my mother told me the Greek myths when I was young and I believed her verbatim...came as quite a shock to my Catholic school teachers when I told them that the tallest mountain in the world was Mt. Olympus "where the gods live.") I have one person I can truly call friend who is not Caucasian (not counting Steve who's adopted so he don't know what he is save that he has a bit of Indian blood), but I don't think I've "turned to chalk" by my lack of acquaintances "of color." I don't KNOW the ethnic backgrounds of most of my friends...it DOESN'T MATTER to me what part of the world their parents came from. My background is Norwegian/Greek/English/Irish. I wasn't brought up with any English/Irish culture so am I being inconsiderate by not associating with myself that part of me which IS? I don't think so (and for those of you who care: no, I didn't study English History or British Literature in school. My knowledge of Shakespeare is virtually nil and I'm an ACTOR, fer cryin' out loud. I've never gotten around to it.) There is a difference between actively avoiding people of a certain characteristic and simply having a void of that characteristic in your clique of people. I didn't actively seek out the people who became my friends...it just happened. People who say that white people all have the same culture don't know what "white" culture is. *I* don't know what "white" culture is and *I* am white. I'm sorry if I seem pissy, but I'm getting sick and tired of people lumping me in together with all the other people with the same color skin and claiming we all have the same culture. I KNOW it isn't true with black people (the best example I've heard of this is "My family is from Jamaica") so why should it be true of white people? -- Brian Evans bevans at hmcvax.claremont.edu, hmcvax.bitnet, jarthur.claremont.edu
LCREW@DRACO.RUTGERS.EDU (02/20/90)
Sugar, sorry you took it hard. I meant to comment more on what you are missing (_positive_ color codes) than on what you have experienced. I loved living in Europe too. This is the first century in which we have had so free an access to people not like ourselves. I welcome the chance to experience this richness. Part of the pleasure is confirming how essentially people are alike. We do have to structure these choices if our culture pre-empts them. Most people in most culture seek others like themselves. Louie
braddlee@UCS.INDIANA.EDU (BRADDLEE,_,TEL) (02/20/90)
Brian - Touchy, touchy, touchy..... Braddlee
Christopher.Young@ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU (02/20/90)
>If your guest book and friendship registers don't include several people >from many different ethnic backgrounds, you're a white person turning into >chalk, vastly impoverished from the lack of nurture for which hundreds, >nay thousands of people of all colors have dreamed. Perhaps Brian was a little sensitive wrt Louie's post, but on the other hand, I can kind of understand it to. And indeed, the wording could have been phrased a bit better. To wit: "If you have not had the experience of being able to associate with people from lots of other different ethinic backgrounds, then you have been losing out on a lot of great growth potential" or something like that. What is the difference? For one thing, this alternative is colour blind. White people tend to get saddle with a lot of sins of ethnocentricity, yet as a Chinese, I know that we are often quite guilty of the same thing. Similarly, racism is often attributed only to whites in this country. Yet, as a Chinese, I know what it is like to face it from Blacks as well, who are assumed as a population (at least here in Pittsburgh) to not be capable of such a negative quality because they have been the victims of it for so long. I can see how that can get annoying after a while. Secondly, Louie's penchant for the poetic lead him to phrase the latter half of the quote not only in a somewhat difficult to understand fashion, but in a negative rather than positive way. That sound more threatening. "turning into chalk" sounds more judgmental and negative (and indeed threatening) than "losing out on a lot of great growth potential", which makes it sound more like an opportunity not to be missed (not that it's great phrasing, but an example of a more positive spin). A few other comments about Louie's post: This probably sounds terrible, and perhaps I am misinterpretting this, but when Louie said: "It's black history month and I for one am absolutely delighted to celebrate it as MY history", it sounded as though he was making the history of Black people his own history, and I really don't think he can if he is not of Black blood. Similarly, he cannot take Chinese history as his own if it is not his blood. Why? Because these histories affected Blacks and Chinese, etc. in certain profound ways that they cannot have affected people who come from different backgrounds, with very few exceptions. All ethnicities of all colours (white, black, yellow, red, brown...) have their histories, and though they may have intermingled, they are different. They are all equally as valuable and interesting, be they manifested in Irish story telling or Balanese dance. But they are the birthright of those of us born into the traditions. This is not to say Black history didn't affect us all here in the US, but just that it affected us differently. I enjoy all sorts of histories, but I do not claim them all. Having said all that, I actually agree with Louie's basic message: I love meeting people from all different places, and seeing different cultures, and learning about them. It is very enriching and fun to boot. -- Chris.
LCREW@DRACO.RUTGERS.EDU (02/20/90)
Chris, sugar, Thanks immensely for clearing the air. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa. > Perhaps Brian was a little sensitive wrt Louie's post, but on the other > hand, I can kind of understand it to. And indeed, the wording could have > been phrased a bit better. To wit: > If you have not had the experience of being able to associate with > people from lots of other different ethinic backgrounds, then you have > been losing out on a lot of great growth potential I stand corrected! Thank you. I accept your wording as far better, and I take responsibility for wrongly sending Brian off on a guilt trip. > White people tend to get saddle with a lot of sins of ethnocentricity, > yet as a Chinese, I know that we are often quite guilty of the same > thing. Unfortunately, yes. My black husband and I lived in Asia for 4 years. Frequently in China we were refused service, when all other foreigners were not. Frequently bus drivers would wait for us, and then take off just as we got to the door, saying in Chinese, "Black person." Frequently throngs of people would hold their noses as Ernest passed, even when they were not close enough to smell his Bal a Versaille. When my closest student became a teacher in a prominent secondary school in Hong Kong (now he directs of the Contemporary Dance Theatre there), he would try to change the subject when I asked him whether he addressed racism in his classes. Finally I had had enough. "Why do you ignore me?!" I shouted. Silence. "Do these matters not count?!" Another long silence, then, in a low, slow, intense voice, as only a friend can muster to educate another friend: "We have other more important things to deal with." "Like what, for instance!?" I was as nearly hysterical as I'd ever been. "Like........" Pause, then painfully, "our own God-damned inferiority complex." Whew! Hera, dearest, where are you when we need you the most. Buddah, dearest, help! Luti/Louie
LCREW@DRACO.RUTGERS.EDU (02/20/90)
Chris, > This probably sounds terrible, and perhaps I am misinterpretting this, but > when Louie said: "It's black history month and I for one am absolutely > delighted to celebrate it as MY history", it sounded as though he was > making the history of Black people his own history, and I really don't > think he can if he is not of Black blood. Similarly, he cannot take > Chinese history as his own if it is not his blood. Why? Because these > histories affected Blacks and Chinese, etc. in certain profound ways that > they cannot have affected people who come from different backgrounds, with > very few exceptions. Here, I'm less certain. Once I went to Chungdu (sp?), not the one in Sichuean Province, but the one three hours north of Beijing, where emperors routinely spent their summers. Because it is far enough away from Beijing, it always escaped the ravages which each new dynasty put upon the old order, the old architecture. Hence, in this relatively small place one can see preserved in good form more Asian styles of architecture than one can find in any other one place. It's quite a treasure, and I happened to be there when a group of architects from the University of Minnesota were there, sharing with me many bits of their specialized knowledge of this history. Later in the day, with only the Chinese guide provided for the teachers from my institute, I asked about one of the central temples we were visiting. "There were three schools of Buddhism here in that century, he said. The Yellow School, The Red School, and the Black School." "What were the differences?" I asked. "The Red wore red, the Yellow wore Yellow, the Black wore Black." End of the discussion. End if not of what he knew, of what his government would allow him to say. I'd like to think the latter, but I know that my students back in Beijing could not explain these to me either, nor were they interested in any "feudal" reality. They defined everything before 1949 as feudal. Yes, you're right when you say that no one can truly experience empathy. At best it is only an ideal, but a damn important ideal. And yes, Confucianism and Buddism and Taoism still profoundly influence over a billion people who know relatively little about them, who do not consciously value them, who know much less about them than sensitive foreigners who use their brains, hearts, and imaginations to expand their experience with empathy. (Every time I read Confucious, I understand my four years in Asia more clearly....) In another sense, history belongs only to those who care enough to understand it, not merely to be its victims or beneficiaries. Thanks for raising such troubling questions. Please help me again with the answers. One of my dear friends, Dan Beck, runs a fascinating bookstore in Pittsburgh. He and his lover (Clayton Powell) are a black/white couple. They've also bought a house for street people who have AIDS, managed by the local INTEGRITY chapter. Do give them a call. You sound like someone they'd enjoy knowing: Dr. Daniel Beck St. Elmo's 2214 E. Carson Street Pittsburgh, PA 15200 1412-231-2537 1412-431-9100 (lover: Clayton Powell) Tell them Quean Lutibelle sent you. I'd like for them to know you too. Sheea sheea. Sigh-gin. (Neih sik 'm sik gong Gwongdungwah? Nogh 'm sik gong--siu siu jeh. Neigh sik'm sik gong Putongwah a? Nogh 'm sik. Boocher dou. Hou 'm hou ah? Neih nogh paugnyauh. Li Min Hua (c'est moi aussi)