WEINER%MITWIBR.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU (02/09/90)
I would like to think that the some of the same things that keep healthy heterosexual couples together and healthy lesbian couples together, are also the things that keep healthy gay male couples together. Am I wrong? My partner and I just celebrated our 7th anniversary. Some of the things that keep us together are: 1. We work at it. Two people involved in any venture means compromise. 2. We talk. And when I know she needs to talk about something, but is reluctant, I remind her that that's why I'm there. 3. We keep in mind that there are good times and bad times, great times and times when life in general is the pits. This is a given and there is no way around it. 4. We're honest with each other, and we try to stay honest with ourselves. As far as we're concerned, it's the only way. 5. We still love each other very much. We also try to re-evaluate our goals and our dreams from time to time. It can be uplifting or emotionally draining, but it keeps us in touch with what we're aiming for as individuals and as a couple. OK, what do we do that is so different from what any other kind of couples do? Amy BITNet: weiner@mitwibr Other: weiner%mitwibr.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu
DANGAY%UNC.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU (Daniel L Leonard) (02/09/90)
amy,
thanks for you input. true these guidelines should work for
allcouples in relationship. i am wanting a male/male couple
who has been together 5+ years to speak up and share with us.
so far no responders !! are they not on this net ? do they
have nothing to share ? could they just say "ditto" to your
response ?
this silence reinforces my personal observation that
such couples are extremely rare or do not share with others.
danLCREW@DRACO.RUTGERS.EDU (02/10/90)
Dan, sugar, > this silence reinforces my personal observation that > such couples are extremely rare or do not share with others. I can think of at least 10 other explanations for the silence, all of them less malicious. ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ | | | | | | | ============= ============= H. M. Quean Lutibelle ============================================================================ ==== A.k.a. lcrew@draco, Brother Thorn-in-the-Flesh, William Werc ==== ==== Louise Clay, Li Min Hua, and Louie Crew ==== ==== CompuServe No. 73517,147. FAX 201-648-5700 Attn. Conklin #156 ==== ==== Rutgers/Newark, NJ 07102 201-485-4503 h; 201-648-5434 o ==== ============================================================================
N107AA%TAMVM1.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU (Stephanie Smith) (02/12/90)
Dangay,
I know a couple that has been together 15 years, and is very happy. Neither
of them, however, have access to Gaynet as they are not at a university. One
is a Ph.D. psychologist in private practice and the other is an interior
designer. In fact, their aniversery is Tuesday.
StephanieCORCORAN@MAINE (02/12/90)
Dan,
I seemed to have missed your original posting, but did read
Amy's. I replied directly to her to say, ditto. My lover and I
have been coupled for over four years, and have gone through all
sorts of phases, but I've found that we've reached a stage where
we operate very much like Amy and her lover do. I can share my
observations about how we handled our relationship and the effects
that it had if anyone likes, but I don't think that relationships
differ that much (at least at this level) between male/male and
female/female couples. I do think that they are apt to be rather
different than heterosexual situations if only because same-sex
relationships have no social or legal sanction and they don't have
the ready made formula (i.e. marriage) that heterosexuals may choose.
Having watched men couple with men (and women with women) I'm struck
by how much time is spent re-inventing the wheel. (Before you jump
on be for this, I don't think that it's altogether bad, it's just
that very few of the couples I see forming and breaking apart in six
month periods seem to learn from the experience of others.)
Cororan@Portland / Corcoran@Maine are: John Corcoran ============
Phil Dept./Core == ==
"And now, what will become of us U. So. Maine === ===
without any barbarians? Those people Portland, ME ==== ====
were a kind of solution." 04103 ===== =====
--C.P. Cavafy 207-780-4226 ============DANGAY%UNC.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU (Daniel L Leonard) (02/12/90)
john,
thanks for your reply. i have also had a promise of a reply
from dan f. i guess what i want to know is how male/male
couples resovle conflict. how having diffenernt wants/needs are
consturctively dealt with. as opposed to grudgingly doint what
the other wants or taking a basically unacceptable compromise ?
have you any recent info on discordant couples ? a friend
is in the hospital with depression after his lover died of aids.
he has repeatedly tested hiv negative, but has had lymphadnopathy
for years even before they were together ?! he says he was
never ppai, but is/was heavy into french kissing. i would like
to give him some words of encouragement -other than "well, you
haven't seroconverted yet." any suggestions. he is not elgible
for most support groups around here.
dangayChristopher.Young@ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU (02/13/90)
> thanks for you input. true these guidelines should work for >allcouples in relationship. i am wanting a male/male couple > who has been together 5+ years to speak up and share with us. > > so far no responders !! are they not on this net ? do they > have nothing to share ? could they just say "ditto" to your > response ? > this silence reinforces my personal observation that > such couples are extremely rare or do not share with others. This net is hardly a scientific sampling. Nor can it be said with any certainity that it accurately reflects the gay community in general. Indeed, most people (or at least this is my impression) are undergrads. If in fact this hypothesis is true, then the likelyhood of couples who have been together for >= 5 years in considerably less than in the population at large (as would also be the case with heterosexual couples), since they have probably had less time to actually establish a relationship. Indeed, for most undergrads, they would have had to have started their relationship in high school if they are a senior (or freshman year if they are a super-senior) in order to have had a relationship of 5 years duration. It had been my personal experience to have known a number of couples who have been together from 5 to 15 years. These were mostly in Davis, California. Two couples were grad students in plant science related fields. The others, except one, were not affiliated with the university at all. None used computers except to run statistics or do word processing. Some of these couples interacted with the community more than others did. I think, if I understand what you mean when you say "..do not share with others", you are correct in the observation that gay couples do not often partake in the social activities of the lesgay community at large. This has been my observation as well. There are good reasons for this, too. Among them are that the gay male part of the community (much more so than the lesbian part) has tended to be quite oriented towards singles males; there is little or no support for gay couples. Frequently, there are people trying to horn in on other people's relationships. In other words, coupling has had a difficult time even in the gay male part of our community in gaining "legitimacy", not to mention in society at large. People also seem to have a tendency to tell other people how to run their relationships, and I think that gets annoying after a while. Finally, there is a natural tendency for couples,a lesgay or straight, to draw back some anyway just because there are things to do as a couple that don't include everybody else (like setting up a home). -- Chris.
DANGAY%UNC.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU (Daniel L Leonard) (02/13/90)
stephanie,
thanks. yes, i knew a few existed. it's just so
difficult to talk with them about such personal issues
face to face. i know a few here in chapel hill, but i
wouldn't just walk up at a social gathering and say
" you two have been together for years. i would just like
to know how you handle conflict ?"
please extend my best wishes to your friends.
dangayCORCORAN@MAINE (02/13/90)
Dan,
Funny you should ask. Sean and I are HIV discordant. He's been positive
for five years and disgnosed for two and half. I just got the latest
batch of the (bianual) results back this evening - still HIV-. There are
a number of issues that discordant couples seem to have to deal with
that go beyond the issue of sex and what you do and don't do, but I'll
deal with that first, since it's the area folks panic with most redily.
(For the benefit of the public network, what follows should in no way
be read as an endorsement of any particular level of safe sex, sexual
practice, it's just my experience.) Sean and I have been having sex
on average about three times a week for the past four years (with
a six month "sabbatical" in 88. We established ground rules about
the level of risk during the first couple of weeks we went out, and
except for a few modifications, the remain intact. These are: any
sort of kissing is fine. Oral sex is unregulated with one exception:
if we expect him to have an orgasm in my mouth, a condom is used.
We have practiced oral sex without a condom and without orgasm with
no problems (recent data from Health Welfare Canada supports this).
In terms of anal sex, we both use condoms from initial insertion on.
These, of course, are only covering the so-called "risky" activities.
There are, of course, a myriad of alternatives to this. Neither of us
is particularly top or bottom--it works pretty evenly. We practice
oral sex much more frequently than anal sex. The point of this (rather
revealing) information is that one need not encase one's self in rubber
head to foot and douse one's self with bleach every 10 minutes to avoid
HIV infection. It just takes good unhysterical common sense. And some
luck. There *have* been accidents: condoms have broken, etc., but this
is to be expected. It all depends on the way one feels inclined to
express your sexuality, and the limits one's willing to place on that
activity in the interests of avoiding HIV infection.
The non-sexual issues are more complex. Survivors guilt, feeling cheated
by AIDS, dealing with death, medical and legal issues, oh they go on
and on. Recently, I've watched 11 of my friends and acquaintences die
of AIDS (this is in the six week period 1 Dec 89-15 Jan 90), and for
those of us in the sticks that's a lot in a six week period. It has
left me with a nagging feeling that the other shoe is about to drop
with Sean (who remains in rather good health). I do attend a suppost
group for lovers of PWAs, and I strongly recommend that those in dis-
cordant relationships use this tool when it's available. When it's not,
it is important to get in touch with others in a similar situation, if
only for the simple reason that there's more knowledge in two heads
than one. One of the worst things about being a HIV- lover of a PWA
is that there simply aren't that many who are publicaly available.
If, Dan, your friend would like to talk to me you may foward the phone
number at the bottom of this note to him.
In terms of your other question (regarding conflict resolution), we've
used many different styles. Initially we used a rather manipulative
form of bluffing: if you don't do what I want you to do, I'll withold
affection. That lead to a lot of pouting and general ill feeling.
Then we went into a stage of mutual capitulation. This lead to
unhappy compromises which left both of us more unhappy than we'd been
before. A side effect of this is that there is little direction to
the relationship. After a six month "sabbatical," we seem to have come,
in the last year and a half to a sort of barganing. If one wants A,
and the other does not, we have a conversation about *why* one want's
A and the other not. This has to be absolutely frank. If it's something
simple without major emotional entanglments, generally, we do what we
want separately. If it's an emotionally charged situation, it depends
on the degree of feeling either of us has on the matter. Ultimately,
what decides it is what's good for the relationship, and for ourselves
in it. Put simply, my going out and willfully hurting Sean's feelings
had better be worth the mess it will cause in the relationship afterwards,
and vice versa.
In terms of temper tantrums and anger, we both do it, but have learned
not to take it so seriously. It always blows over, and it's usually
over something that's ridiculous. We are beginning to enjoy expressing
anger, and it's working wonders at reducing our mutual stress level.
I think it's essential to have a good fight now and again, if only
because it's an assertion of our individualism. Sean is his own man,
and I love him for it. Slavery bores me.
Finally, we have both come to realize that because we have conflict
does not mean that the relationship is bad or isn't working. Both of
us has spent enough time questioning the relationship to realize that
it's just fine, no matter how much conflict we generate. So because
we have different goals and different ways of achieving them, doesn't
mean that we can't have a good solid relationship. It takes more than
that to bring me to such fundamental questioning of the relationship.
Curiously enough, the less we worry about the appropriateness of our
relationship, the less we squabble. For several months now, we've had,
on average a spat a month. But both of us are sufficiently committed to
talk through issues honestly and as frankly as we can muster.
I realize this conflict bit has been rather vague. If you want more
discussion of it, e-mail me directly. I'm happy to go into detail
on any area you have questions about.
It's also late.
Cororan@Portland / Corcoran@Maine are: John Corcoran ============
Phil Dept./Core == ==
"And now, what will become of us U. So. Maine === ===
without any barbarians? Those people Portland, ME ==== ====
were a kind of solution." 04103 ===== =====
--C.P. Cavafy 207-780-4226 ============hducat%BKLYN.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU (Howie Ducat) (02/14/90)
Maybe I missed the message requesting couples to ID themselves? I'm part of a couple.. What was the question?
hducat%BKLYN.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU (Howie Ducat) (02/20/90)
Hi again... A BBS is and Electronic Bulliten Board System - Basically, it's the same as this is, only the computer is a Micro in someones home, running software that allows people with Modems to dial in, and leave messages and chat with each other. There are also networks of these types of computers. Ours is a member of FIDONet, which connects many of these systems together, thus getting you in touch with thousands of systems all over the world. We had exchanged messages, Rich and I, for several months, and at a gathering at the Monster (a bar in the Village here) from the BBS, we met... well, sort of. I was so scared to actually "meet" face to face, that I gave my friend my number at home to give to him, and ran like hell. He called the next day, and that night, I went to his Apt..... and never left!! (smile) Howie
DANGAY%UNC.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU (Daniel L Leonard) (02/21/90)
howie,
great !
who has more trouble with your age difference
you or him or neither ?
from previous postings you see that i usually date
younger men. some folks say that that is dysfunctional ?!
i would appreciate you all's thoughts on this.
thanks,
dangay