nick@LFCS.ED.AC.UK (Nick Rothwell) (02/20/90)
>So do I buy one sight unseen (A trial >model in Pittsburgh?> HA!) and pray, or do I wait for the WS and pray >even harder that it lives up to the Vector name? ... or wait for me to buy one, knock up some sounds, make a tape, and air-mail it to you. This might take a while, by which time the Waldorf might have vanished from the face of the Earth. Does anybody actually know if that wonderful vocal/choir sound from the second half of TD's Kiew Mission track (from Exit) is actually a PPG Wave? I've just had a horrible thought that it might be a Crumar GDS or something else, and maybe the Waldorf can't do it...? Nick.
kg19+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Kurt A. Geisel) (02/20/90)
>So do I buy one sight unseen (A trial >model in Pittsburgh?> HA!) and pray, or do I wait for the WS and pray >even harder that it lives up to the Vector name? *sigh* Well, I've seen enough to know to trust Nick's judgement. If he can patch it to sound like a PPG, I'm going to have a heck of time keeping myself from buying it. Otherwise, it doesn't sound too impressive from first impressions... As for the WS, there's hope. After all, this is the original SCI design team. If Korg hasn't stunted its development, it should be pretty amazing. Keep in mind, though, that the WS is >>>>>>>>>$$$$$$$$$$$$... If it has onboard effects, I'll cringe. If it has a sequencer, I'll puke! Damn the DPM3!!!! - Kurt Kurt Geisel SNAIL : Carnegie Mellon University 65 Lambeth Dr. ARPA : kg19+@andrew.cmu.edu Pittsburgh, PA 15241 UUCP : uunet!nfsun!kgeisel "We just need to short-circuit the continuum on a BIX : kgeisel 5 or 6 parsec level." - Forbidden Planet
kg19+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Kurt A. Geisel) (02/20/90)
>Does anybody actually know if that wonderful vocal/choir sound from >the second half of TD's Kiew Mission track (from Exit) is actually >a PPG Wave? I've just had a horrible thought that it might be a >Crumar GDS or something else, and maybe the Waldorf can't do it...? Well, I'm not POSITIVE, but I am almost sure. I have a transcription of Chronozon with nearly everything labelled "PPG Wave", so I have no doubt that it makes up most of the album. Also, I have heard similar choir sounds from Klause Schulze which have been positively identified as PPGs. - Kurt
schabtac@SPOT.COLORADO.EDU (02/21/90)
>Keep in mind, though, that the WS is >>>>>>>>>$$$$$$$$$$$$... >If it has onboard effects, I'll cringe. If it has a sequencer, I'll puke! >Damn the DPM3!!!! From what I've been able to find out, the WS is ~$2500, while the Waldorf KitchenAid (sorry, folks, I'm still having a hard time with the NAME of the thing) is $2000. Assuming the usual 15-25%-off-list price for Korg gear, and also assuming the 'Dorf is gonna be hard to find stateside (even if Nick does coax the killer TD choir out of it, it just ain't gonna be a runaway seller in the U.S.) and hence will go for nearly list, the price difference between the two won't be enormous. With the WS, you get a keyboard (mixed feelings about that, but I guess I could put up with it) a couple of joysticks to waggle, and what looks to be a pretty nice front panel. You'll cringe, but you won't lose your lunch: the WS has two effects processors but no sequencer. The literatu::-,a:e::-:::: :::but th but that has to do with the sound generation (perhaps a scanning mechanism similar to the PPG/MixMaster, yes, maybe, hopefully?) and not sequenceing int the usual sense. I played a DPM3. Yawn. I really don't see why Keyboard got so excited about it. It sounds okay, but sonically speaking, the VFX SD sitting next to it blew the pants off it. Maybe they're influenced by all the advertising space Peavey has bought over the past few months (God, those are the worst ads for music gear I've ever seen). --Adam
METLAY@PITTVMS.BITNET (02/21/90)
It's interesting how individual tastes change. My friends and I alway skip over "Kiew Mission" when we listen to Exit, because we can't bear the "chipmunk choir" at the end. Nice formants, but it really reminds me of Alvin, Simon, and Theodore. And I can wait for a tape, Nick. For $2000 at risk, I can wait. metlay PS. BTW, the best simulation of that choir I've ever heard, , and the one used by TD on their underwater sunlight tour, was on a Roland JX8P. You've got an MKS-70, bucko. Go for it.
METLAY@PITTVMS.BITNET (02/21/90)
Cringe but don't puke, Kurt. It has two onboard FX processors and no sequencer. It's also going to retail for under 3 grand, from what I've been told. Perhaps way under. (What the hey, the original VS had a chorus on board and got flamed by KEYBOARD for not having a full DDL!) metlay
nick@LFCS.ED.AC.UK (Nick Rothwell) (02/21/90)
>It's interesting how individual tastes change. My friends >and I alway skip over "Kiew Mission" when we listen to >Exit, because we can't bear the "chipmunk choir" at the >end. Nice formants, but it really reminds me of Alvin, >Simon, and Theodore. ...whoever they are...? I don't want to spend the rest of my musical "career" making EEE/AAA/OOO/UUU noises with a Waldorf, but I want a machine which can do things as distinctive as that, as long as it has a decent amount of versatility to do other things, of course. I just got some mail from Alan Vymetalik, TD guru at large, who reckoned that the vocal sound might be sampled (Emulator). Apparently Edgar said in an interview at the time that they were doing things like making short sample loops of huge layers of instruments at weird frequencies, so that the harmonic characteristic of the played-back sample would change drastically at different playback pitches (presumably due to quirks in the Emulator's playback circuitry, or something). A little inside info: last night I went to an Ensoniq demo, and had a chance to talk to Paul Wiffen (session programmer who has worked with Jean-Michel Jarre, and who got his Synthex waterlogged at the Jarre Docklands concerts in '88, don't worry guys, Synthexes can swim), as well as another guy (whose name I forget) who programmed sounds for PPG in the early 80's, and is doing sounds for the Waldorf. It appears that Waldorf is just a money-spinner to keep Palm and Duren going while they get more involved with some of the new Steinberg Digital Audio stuff, like the Topaz Direct-to-Disk system. So, I don't know how much of a long-term affair Waldorf is, or whether there will be more MicroWave-like machines coming along. Wiffen claimed that they were selling in the US, but only to die-hard PPG owners who wanted to add some voices and get something a little more reliable. Technically, he claimed that the MicroWave has a problem in that the VCA's don't close down fully, so it would probably need to be gated. I shall check up on this. I now have a deposit down on the machine, and will be going to spend more time with it next week. The only other machine which seems even remotely comparable at the moment is the VFX, and to some extent the VFX/SD would be more useful for live work; as a performance instrument it seems pretty well thought out, and it has onboard sequencer, play while load, and so on. But, I think the VFX sounds boring. Nice sounds, nice architecture, nice performance features, but boring. My head says "save up for a VFX/SD, it's perfect for live use", my heart says go get a MicroWave. Nick.
JEFF@UTCVM.BITNET (Jeffrey R Kell) (02/21/90)
On Tue, 20 Feb 90 12:35:00 EST <METLAY@PITTVMS> said: > (What the hey, the original VS >had a chorus on board and got flamed by KEYBOARD for not having a >full DDL!) Maybe that's why Korg put two DDL's in the DSS-1, to make damn sure Keyboard didn't bitch at 'em :-) /Jeff/
schabtac@SPOT.COLORADO.EDU (02/22/90)
Nick-- I'm a little puzzled by something you posted: you said that the VFX sounds "nice" but "boring" and that your heart says go for the MicroWave. But earlier, on your "first-encounter" posting, you said (in effect) that the 'Dorf sounds really boring, or at least as far as the presets show. What has the 'Dorf done to win over your heart? Is it that it claims to be a PPG reincarnate? Or that it has analog filters? Or that it's not Ensoniq (by the way, the VFX SD is pretty bug-free, if you get the 2.0 ROMs, or so I've heard from an SD owner)? Just curious, because the VFX is the first synth to really get my attention since the D-50 came out. I see a new synth in my future, and both the ? oops -- unfamiliar keyboard both the Waldorf and the VFX are strong contenders. --Adam P.S. I guess I forgot to mention that I realize your infatuation with the Waldorf has been long and intense -- it's just that you seemed a bit disappointed with it after finally seeing it in the light of day.
kg19+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Kurt A. Geisel) (02/22/90)
>>Nice formants, but it really reminds me of Alvin, >>Simon, and Theodore. >...whoever they are...? Ach! No wonder the US is going down the tubes! :-) Nick, you DON'T WANNA KNOW! >It appears >that Waldorf is just a money-spinner to keep Palm and Duren going >while they get more involved with some of the new Steinberg Digital >Audio stuff, like the Topaz Direct-to-Disk system. Frankly, even if the Waldorf is a PPG, it is sounding less and less appetizing all the time. I didn't know it would be $2000 in the US. >The only other machine which seems even >remotely comparable at the moment is the VFX... Don't forget the Korg WS. It's looking better all the time. Besides, you don't want an "ugly American synth"! :-) - Kurt Kurt Geisel SNAIL : Carnegie Mellon University 65 Lambeth Dr. ARPA : kg19+@andrew.cmu.edu Pittsburgh, PA 15241 UUCP : uunet!nfsun!kgeisel "We just need to short-circuit the continuum on a BIX : kgeisel 5 or 6 parsec level." - Forbidden Planet
STC7857@OBERLIN.BITNET (Tim -Got Your Aten- Chen) (02/22/90)
this is actually also just a test. the VFX is incredible, but beware.... The Roland D-70 Super (as opposed to lame?) L/A Synth is lurking. . . Incredible PCM samples (you can even filter them in real time), multi- timbral, etc etc etc.
METLAY@PITTVMS.BITNET (02/22/90)
Actually, the first instruments to have any sort of FX on board were the early Korgs (the DW8000) and the VS. A lot of people hated the idea, because onboard effects supposedly represented a means of simultaneously adding bells and whistles to a boring synth and of hiding its sound weaknesses. Funny how opinions have shifted. (I, personally, think that a well-made FX section is very handy. But NOT if it wrecks the sound of the synth! Which is why I like the DW and the DSS-1, whose DDLs are wicked silent, and HATE the K4 and the other modern workstations, whose digital FX processors are always putrid with quiescent noise. Bleah!) metlay
root%vlsi-mentor.jpl.nasa.gov@HAMLET.BITNET (300-331J) (02/22/90)
Er...why are some EFX boxes noiser than others? Is it: a) bits per sample b) samples per second c) Something other than a DSP56000 d) crummy analog OR e) Something else -Dave Hayes "Only Sweet Voiced birds are Imprisoned"
nick@LFCS.ED.AC.UK (Nick Rothwell) (02/22/90)
> I'm a little puzzled by something you posted: you said that the >VFX sounds "nice" but "boring" and that your heart says go for the >MicroWave. But earlier, on your "first-encounter" posting, you said >(in effect) that the 'Dorf sounds really boring, or at least as far >as the presets show. Ok, lemme try and clarify that. The Waldorf has, as far as I can tell from spending a little time with it, a nice voice architecture; the filtering is nice, the wavetables are nice and smooth, and it has the warmth of an analogue synth with the animation of a wavetable machine. I played about with some rather wild modulation settings, and the sound never deteriorated into anything unmusical; the machine responded very nicely to the weird settings I put into it. Sounds like I'm describing a plane or something; that'll teach me to read A Gift of Wings over breakfast... The Waldorf is crippled by its factory presets. They are a complete turn-off. A $500 Juno will blow it away in terms of preset strings, brass, bass. As as result, I am a little unsure of how far the Waldorf can be stretched; can it do that wonderful formant-swept vocal sound? I dunno. The fact that it claims to be a PPG incarnate has a lot to do with its appeal, and that seems to be what's selling it in the US; but that's largely a marketing claim (even though the Waldorf shares the same wavetables and similar architecture), so it maybe something to be wary of. Regarding the VFX: very impressive voice and *performance* architecture. I like the fact that the filters, even though not resonant, can be switched to combinations of high- and low-pass, and that each "partial" (in D-50 parlance) has dedicated filter and LFO settings. But, I find that Ensoniq stuff sounds boring. I've no idea why. The ESQ-1 sounded boring. The VFX sounds boring. Even the VFX wavetable sweep sounds sound boring. It's as if every other instrument I own can paint in a selection of colours, whereas the VFX has an incredibly flexible and programmable command of all the shades of grey. I'll be spending some more time with the Waldorf and a VFX over the next week or two. Meanwhile, I'm in a quandary. My heart says go for the Waldorf, because it has the potential (as far as I can tell) of sounding gorgeous. My head says try and get some more money scraped up and go for the VFX/SD. We need some kind of performance sequencing set-up fairly soon, and the VFX/SD would seem to deliver, as well as providing another keyboard and some more effects. Also, my colleague has a plain VFX already. (important question: can you address 16 external MIDI channels *as well as* the internal programs of the VFX?) Perhaps I should ignore the fact that the VFX sounds boring to me; what's important is the music, and how we capture our ideas in a live performance, in which case I might be able to justify a VFX/SD more than a Waldorf, even if the latter sounds better. What are the US prices of the VFX and /SD? (I need both so I can scale up the plain VFX price to Europe levels and work out the local /SD price.) I don't know if there are any decent dedicated MIDI sequencers (> 16 channels) available for the SD/Waldorf price difference. Nick.