garnett@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu (Roger Garnett) (02/08/90)
As long as were going into the details of the 1100 series, lets not forget a couple more badge clones- the Riley and (I think) the Wosley 1100's. Not a real common car in the US these days, due in large part to a *larger than normal* propensity to rust. The hydroelastic suspension was their main claim to fame. I believe the system linked the front right to L.R, and F.L. to R.R. wheels, in an attempt to balance things when cornering. Garry A. What was that comment about making MG Magnettes through 1968 ????. Isn't the last year around 60-61? Speaking of 1100's, I make a last plea for an 1098 crank (large mains) or complete 1275 setup (cheap :-) ) for my Sprite. The last sheet rock and wiring goes up in Roger's Garage [SLCFWSC] this weekend, then it's time to "set up shop" ;-) . I can get a crank and bearing kit from FASPEC for $250. Which isn't too bad, it's just that I paid less for the car... Ah! a 'nother comment from Rover 'bout making a new MG roadster for the American market. They have been saying this, complete with sketches, and at least one nice looking concept car for the last 10 years. But the time may be right. (or a little late?) There are more and more comments about the British car industry needing to export cars, and compete with the Japanese. They aren't the only ones with possible roadsters either. Nissan was roumered to be considering a ragtop version of the 240ZX. Honda has commented on a chopped CRX or the likes. (which wouldn't be much different than the Rover idea). Seeing as how the luxury car market is so soft, mayby it's time for fun stuff. We'll still be able to buy multiple "Old British Cars" for the price of anything they come up with!!!!! (Yea, that's the ticket, time to build a new 10, no, 20, no, 50 bay lock-up!) ________ /___ _ \ Roger Garnett (garnett@tcgould.TN.CORNELL.EDU) /| || \ \ Agricultural Economics | The All New: | |___|| _ | 3 Warren Hall | South Lansing Centre For | | \ | | | Cornell University | Wayward Sports Cars \| \ |__/ / Ithaca, N.Y. 14853 | (607) 533-7735 \________/ (607) 255-2522 | SAFETY FAST!
archer@hsi.com (Garry Archer) (02/08/90)
From: yale!harvard!mit-eddie!tcgould.TN.CORNELL.EDU!garnett (Roger Garnett) > > As long as were going into the details of the 1100 series, lets not forget > a couple more badge clones- the Riley and (I think) the Wosley 1100's. You reminded me of me Dad's first ever car, a 1959 (I think) Wolsley 1500. (Me Dad didn't need a car until later in life. Although he drove Army lorries at times during WW2 he didn't pass his driving test until sometime around 1969). And of course there was a Riley variant. The Wolsley 1500 was a great car and was built like a proverbial "brick sh*thouse". Excuse the expression, but it's very appropriate. (We used to say the same about the Morris Minor too!) I always loved that car. If I ever see one for sale I would seriously consider it --- mostly for sentimental reasons... > Garry A. What was that comment about making MG Magnettes through > 1968 ????. Isn't the last year around 60-61? That was according to a book I have called "Famous British Car Marques". What about the MG ZA Magnette? And other Z? Magnettes? Perhaps you were thinking of these? I'd have to check my book again... > .... The last sheet rock and > wiring goes up in Roger's Garage [SLCFWSC] this weekend, then it's time to > "set up shop" ;-) ... > ________ > /___ _ \ Roger Garnett (garnett@tcgould.TN.CORNELL.EDU) > /| || \ \ Agricultural Economics | The All New: > | |___|| _ | 3 Warren Hall | South Lansing Centre For > | | \ | | | Cornell University | Wayward Sports Cars > \| \ |__/ / Ithaca, N.Y. 14853 | (607) 533-7735 > \________/ (607) 255-2522 | SAFETY FAST! RG! I love it! Good luck with the shop! (I'm envious!) Garry Archer
George.Emery@p42.f4.n105.z1.fidonet.org (George Emery) (02/09/90)
> The hydroelastic suspension was their main > claim to fame. I believe the system linked the front right to L.R, and F.L. to > R.R. wheels, in an attempt to balance things when cornering. No, the hydrolastic only links from front to rear; it doesn't cross the car. In fact, crossing over would be a detriment to cornering: inside rear wheel lifts causing the outside front wheel to dip further causing the inside rear wheel to lift... Great inducement to roll the car! -- George Emery - via FidoNet node 1:105/14 UUCP: ...!{uunet!oresoft, tektronix!reed}!busker!4.42!George.Emery ARPA: George.Emery@p42.f4.n105.z1.FIDONET.ORG
mason@vax.ftp.com (Nark Mason) (02/09/90)
Ok, can anyone clue me in as to what a hydroelastic suspension is?
sfisher@abingdon.wpd.sgi.com (Scott Fisher) (02/10/90)
Ok, can anyone clue me in as to what a hydroelastic suspension is?
Since no one else has leaped to the fore, I'll give
it a shot.
The HydroLastic suspension was part of Alec Issigonis'
design of the original Mini, and was a brilliant piece
of work by most standards of measurement. The simple
definition was that it used rubber cones and metal
pins to provide the springing action. One of the advantages
of such a system is that rubber compresses at a progressive
rate, meaning that it got stiffer the farther you squeezed
it. This meant that the cars effectively had soft springing
if you hit a little bump, and firm springing if you had it
rolled over on its doorhandles.
There were two types of HydroLastic suspension, called
wet and dry. The dry kind is the simplest, and is preferred
by Mini racers in general because of its simplicity, light
weight, and familiar feedback. In the dry system, the
suspension is mounted with a parabolic, machined metal pin
that is in constant contact with a truncated rubber cone.
As the suspension compresses, the pin goes farther into
the rubber cone (and because of the curvature of the pin,
it encounters more of the surface of the cone, which also
acts as a progressive spring). There is one such cone/pin
pair at each wheel, all of which are independently suspended
from the floorpan.
Another feature of such a system is that you can adjust the
suspension's stiffness simply by adjusting the ride height,
due to the nature of the rubber cones. This makes the Minis
an ideal vehicle for situations like road rallies, where
they need to skitter lightly across broken surfaces but
they also need to dig in on high-speed sections.
The wet system is a modification of the dry type (and it's
here where the Hydro part comes into play). In the wet systems,
the cones are hollow and filled with hydraulic fluid. There are
tubes connecting the various cones together (I think it was done
diagonally but I can't recall); the idea here was that compression
at one corner caused the hydraulic fluid to increase the ride
height at another corner (and it's the exact algorithm I can't
recall). The effect was to have a vehicle that rode almost flat
on almost any road -- much the way active suspension works today.
The problems with the wet suspension for competition are its
weight -- not much altogether, but significant on a car the size
of a Mini -- and the fact that it gave such odd feedback to
drivers accustomed to body roll and movements. It also didn't
"feel" sporty -- drivers of the early Sixties were used to cars
that rattled and bumped and in general behaved like, well, like
old British sports cars. (Imagine a time when a 1963 MGB was
state of the art... yeah, such as 1935 :-)
I have never had a satisfactory answer about why the HydroLastic
suspension isn't in wider use today. One answer, I suspect, is that
it doesn't provide much in the way of suspension travel, and that
it doesn't work well on heavy cars -- the Austin America, I think,
was the largest vehicle to use it. For the rest, I suspect a healthy
dose of NIH ("not invented here" -- I still find people who presume
this means National Institute of Health) -- that and possibly a
licensing issue.ejd@iris.brown.edu (02/10/90)
Scott Fisher writes about the wet HydroLastic suspension: >I have never had a satisfactory answer about why the HydroLastic >suspension isn't in wider use today. I do remember seeing, in either an old AutoWeek or Road&Track, an artcile (oops - article) about an engineer working on active-type suspensions who had built a late-model Camaro as a test bed. This car was, as I recall, suspended on hydraulic cylinders cross-linked RF-LR/LF-RR. Maybe not exactly the same, but was this system a relative of the wet Mini suspension? Anybody recall? ed
Michael Sands <sands@apple.com> (02/12/90)
Scott's explanation of the HydroLastic suspension was very complete with all the details. If I remember correctly, the connection in the hydro part was not diagonal but straight back. The reason for this was a justification that Scott did not mention and that was the benefit of the system for short (extremely short in the Mini's case) wheel base cars. One of the most difficult movements to control in a short wheel base car is the pitching moment on rough surfaces. Imagine this system when the front wheels hit a bump and go up the rears follow! This happens as the fronts compress the fluid as the wheels go up in response to the bump. The rears will follow and the car will remain level. This system is not necessary in longer wheelbase cars as the angular change is not as great and the benefit is lost. Michael
"Ralph E. Droms" <droms@perseus.bucknell.edu> (02/12/90)
Two more MG1100 notes: first, parking on an incline and holding with the parking brake demonstrates the hydroelastic suspension; the car will tend to settle out toward level (as much as possible) as the fluid sloshes between the interconnected suspension reservoirs. Second, we found out (one Mischief Night) that an MG1100 can be turned up on its side without damage. Turns out some local pranksters lifted the car up on the driver's side over night. Next AM we gave it a shove and bounced it down on the wheels again. Only apparent damage was a dented hupcap (the car had been parked on the grass). The clutch is on the passenger's side ... dunno if turning it up on that side would have caused any leakage problems. - Ralph
phile@pwcs.stpaul.gov (Philip J Ethier) (02/20/90)
George, you say that a glycol mix is used in wet suspensions. I'm not sure it was always so. I remember a magazine ad for either the MG 1100, or more likely, Austin America, that spoke of alcohol. It made a little joke about alky in the suspension, then stated that seriously, folks, we put a toxic dye in the suspension alcohol or we would have to pay a USA liquor-import tariff. phile@pwcs.stpaul.gov -- Login name: phile In real life: Philip J Ethier Phone: 298-5324
George.Emery@p42.f4.n105.z1.fidonet.org (George Emery) (02/23/90)
> George, you say that a glycol mix is used in wet suspensions. I'm not > sure it was always so. I remember a magazine ad for either the MG > 1100, or more likely, Austin America, that spoke of alcohol. Yep, alcohol (with an anticorrosive agent) was the original substance, but everyone around here just uses anti-freeze since that's what is stored in our garages... -- George Emery - via FidoNet node 1:105/14 UUCP: ...!{uunet!oresoft, tektronix!reed}!busker!4.42!George.Emery ARPA: George.Emery@p42.f4.n105.z1.FIDONET.ORG