cseaman@sequent.UUCP (Chris "The Bartman" Seaman) (01/24/91)
watters@skink.cis.ohio-state.edu (david r watters) writes: < After putting up with the "location 0" crap and writting a little routine to < be able to use TurboSilver and Imagine, who can't stand lacation "0" being < anything but 0, I was getting totally annoyed by the constant "drive lockups" < during operations that I could not avoid. As a 2091 owner, and having been bitten by the location zero 'bug', I must say that I consider it a non-issue. Yes, it should have been caught earlier, but, as has been pointed out several times, any software that encounters problems because of this 'bug' is broke, and should be fixed. I didn't find it a major inconvenience to write the trivial code to work around the problem, and have had no problems with it since doing so. < I constantly have to copy very large image files between two drives and I am < so damn sick of reconstructive all my partitions after they become currupted < by the "lockup" while writting. This also means that any work that I have < rendered must be rerendered making my financial gain half as much based on < time put in. I should NOT have to back up my partitions EACH day. First, I suspect that 'constant copying' of files is slightly overstated. Granted, you may be required to copy vast amounts of data, but do you really have continuous copies in progress? Second, if you are attempting to use your computer in a business (as your article implies), then you should be expected to back up your hard disk each and every day. I've never been in a business which did otherwise. Many times I've been in situations where backups were required twice a day. < I was glad to see someone from some part of CBM recognize the problem, sort < of, and told someone else to turn the reselect, a feature for which you paid < for by buying a drive that supported it, off! I've heard sufficient reports from people at Commodore, as well as users, to believe that, when done properly, disabling reselect for ALL drives connected to the 2091 will correct the lock-up problem. Although I don't (yet) have a second drive connected to my 2091, I went through the paces of disabling reselect, and found that it is very easy to THINK you completed the process, when in fact you have not. < Sure, I am a bit hot. But there is nothing quite as disturbing as seeing < all the work done for a project that is due get lost AND at the same time < reminding yourself that you paid >$3000 !!!! for a "Business/Multimedia/ < Graphics/Higher Educational/Workstation complete with a new sevice image" that < CAN NOT copy a 1meg file between two of it's drives. Again, if you are running a business, you cannot allow yourself to rely on hardware. Any hardware. Make backups. If necessary, make backups of your backups. Backups save money, time, and much, much grief. < Is there a new version of the A2091 Roms (y/n) ? Yes. < What version is the latest ? Not sure, but the latest I've heard of is 6.2 < Has CBM contacted all the ED Discount sales that NEED the new roms (y/n) ? I'm not sure that this is Commodore's responsibility. It's not as though the problem warrants a recall. < Has CBM contacted all the Dealers about the problem (y/n) ? Not sure here either, though they should make this information available to dealers. < Has CBM sent all the Dealers instructions and parts for the fix (y/n) ? I believe, since most people in need of this 'fix' are out of warranty, that Commodore should not be required to send the replacement parts to dealers. They should notify dealers of the availability, and allow dealers to order it, where they (the dealers) see fit. < Shouldn't CBM spread the word themselves (ie. AmigaWorld) (y/n) ? AmigaWorld is not a Commodore publication. Commodore should 'spread the word' through their dealers. < ps. don't ask if I saved the drive info after turning the reselect off. It will < only insult me and make me more mad. Why should you be insulted? I didn't feel I was insulting myself when I attempted to make the change, and felt it necessary to reboot, restart HDToolbox, and double-check myself. That Commodore should ask you whether you have done the same should be expected. Regards, Chris -- Chris (Insert phrase here) Seaman | o\ /o See cseaman@gateway.sequent.com <or> | || "Attack of the Killer Smiley"! ...!uunet!sequent!cseaman | \vvvvvv/ Coming Soon | \____/ to a newsgroup near you!
manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) (01/24/91)
In article <87541@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu>, watters@skink.cis.ohio-state.edu (david r watters) writes: > After feeling a little betrayed by the way CBM quietly dumped A2500's out, only > to launch a totally new machine (A3000) days later, I tried to keep quiet and > enjoy what I had. BUT IT IS GETTING TO DAMN COSTLY! You know its hard. Its a decision at this point, should I flame him or try to talk sense. I guess I will do a bit of both. In my opinion, the first paragraph is completely irrelevant to your problem. Further, the A2500 has not been "dumped" and in many ways it is more viable in some applications then the A3000. > > After putting up with the "location 0" crap and writting a little routine to > be able to use TurboSilver and Imagine, who can't stand lacation "0" being > anything but 0, I was getting totally annoyed by the constant "drive lockups" > during operations that I could not avoid. Though I grant that location 0 problem is a problem, put the problem where it lays. The manufacturer of the software should not repeat not use location 0 for anything. The software is at fault. You should take this up with Impulse and not Commodore. Heck, it probably is nothing but a pointer that was not allocated properly. This has been described very clearly from day one. > > I constantly have to copy very large image files between two drives and I am > so damn sick of reconstructive all my partitions after they become currupted > by the "lockup" while writting. This also means that any work that I have > rendered must be rerendered making my financial gain half as much based on > time put in. I should NOT have to back up my partitions EACH day. I am _assuming_ that you have two hard disks connected, I don't know enough about your configuration to comment. I suspect you could work around this by copying your file to memory and then to the other disk drive. You could easily write a command procedure to do this. > > I was glad to see someone from some part of CBM recognize the problem, sort > of, and told someone else to turn the reselect, a feature for which you paid > for by buying a drive that supported it, off! > > well..... IT STILL SCREWS UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That certainly is going to get their attention. It probably will fix it so that the reader will just want to read your whole article and even extend a helping hand. Perhaps you should slap a bit harder, maybe somebody will give you a new machine! Whaddya think? > > Sure, I am a bit hot. But there is nothing quite as disturbing as seeing > all the work done for a project that is due get lost AND at the same time > reminding yourself that you paid >$3000 !!!! for a "Business/Multimedia/ > Graphics/Higher Educational/Workstation complete with a new sevice image" that > CAN NOT copy a 1meg file between two of it's drives. You know I don't think that Commodore did this on purpose nor did they know the problem existed when it was released. They are a company with limited resources. You have got to admit there is not many people out there who need to copy > meg files between two different hard disks. I can see how this could go undiscovered. Can't you? Or are you perfect? > > Let's adress the service issue. Amiga Dealers.... HA! There is a serious > problem here that supposedly has a warranty upgrade solution. Has my dealer > contacted me: NO Would my dealer know about this: NO Would I have to pay > a $50 bench fee + $10/hr labor for a warranty fix: YES This is the whole reason that I answered this thread. I work as a tech support rep for a Commodore Amiga dealership. Damning all Amiga dealers for the action of one is not only wrong, it is criminal. I do not know your situation with your dealership that is local to you, but I can assure you that if you came into my store with the attitude that you are expressing in this letter, you would get nothing out of me either. Bench fees pay the tech for his/her time. $10 an hour seems extremely reasonable to me. Commodore does not provide funds for the diagnosis of a problem, they only pay the dealer when the hardware is returned to them. Unfortunately we have yet to find a tech that will work for free, so alas, we also have a bench fee. Further, you did not indicate this, but I mention it anyway. If you bought this system on the educational program, you wrote a check to Commodore Business Machines and not your local dealer. Your local dealer gets a percentage [a small one] that is applied toward their bill at Commodore. This means that while it is important to your dealer that he got your business, it is not as crucial as a retail purchaser. You got a lot of hardware for few bucks. You make comprimises. I am not dismissing a dealer obligation, but I am pointing out that you are on thin ice. I also suspect that you did not get the Amiga from Commodore with two hard disks installed. If you did this installation yourself, you are voiding your warranty anyway. At least those are the current rules. (I don't make 'em!) I suspect that if you went in your Amiga dealership with a reasonable attitude and reasonable expectations you will get resasonable response. If you don't get reasonable response, then you should privately send a letter to Commodore and not wash it in public. Public bashing not only hurts you, it hurts all in general. It also almost insures that you never recieve satisfaction. > > 8<-------- Cut here and reply to comp.sys.amiga.hardware ------->8 [Assine and insulting questions deleted.] > -- > "All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars. > All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars!" - RUSH > David watters@cis.ohio-state.edu "It's 12:35... and Michigan STILL sucks." > _-_-_-__---_---_---__-_-_-____ TurboExpress : The Neo*Geo of portables _____ -mark= +--------+ ================================================== | \/ | Mark D. Manes "Mr. AmigaVision" | /\ \/ | manes@vger.nsu.edu | / | (804) 683-2532 "Make up your own mind! - AMIGA" +--------+ ==================================================
jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John 'Vlad' Adams) (01/24/91)
I find it funny (sad?) that two Amiga-authorized tech types have yet to point out that Commodore has a *FREE* fix for the known problem of one-drive 2091 cards. For those with 5.9 ROMS, ask your dealer to look up the April-May 1990 tech notes. There are two or three entries about the lockup problems with the 2091. The *SECOND* entry (if I remember correctly, it's been over four months now that I looked it up) clearly states that an in-warranty ROM swap is available. I think this should be made a part of FAQ. -- John M. Adams --***-- Professional Student /// Internet: jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu Genie: vlad /// Only the Amiga Sysop of The Beachside, Amiga BBS, Paragon 2.085 \\V// Makes it Possible Fido Net 1:3612/557. 904-492-2305 (Florida) \X/
jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) (01/24/91)
In article <87541@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> <watters@skink.cis.ohio-state.edu> writes: >Let's adress the service issue. Amiga Dealers.... HA! There is a serious >problem here that supposedly has a warranty upgrade solution. Has my dealer >contacted me: NO Would my dealer know about this: NO Would I have to pay >a $50 bench fee + $10/hr labor for a warranty fix: YES The new ROMs are not available yet, so at this point there is nothing the dealer can do for you (other than make software that mistakenly reads location 0 stop breaking) until they are. As for warranty issues, I have no knowlege of such issues (I work in engineering), and the sales companies determine them. Note: I am NOT an official spokesperson for Commodore Amiga, let alone Commodore Business Machines (US Sales Co). This is a personal message, Commodore has no knowlege of it nor does it state any official Commodore position. Etc, etc. That said, I'm doing what I can from this end, but some things take time. I'll try to make that time as short as possible. I have been informed (and verified with some users) that there is at least one other problem that can cause problems even with reselection turned off, which the next ROM rev appears to fix (another WD timing issue, which can be accentuated by other devices that sit on the interrupt chain, like serial boards). Once again, it's affected by WD chip rev. Lastly, I try to do what I can for people on the net: informing them on issues, answering questions, looking into problems when I can, etc. I do it all voluntarily, and if I get barraged or flamed it lessens the likelyhood that I'll continue to do so in the future. So keep it cool, guys. -- Randell Jesup, Keeper of AmigaDos, Commodore Engineering. {uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!jesup, jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com BIX: rjesup The compiler runs Like a swift-flowing river I wait in silence. (From "The Zen of Programming") ;-)
ranma@noc.arc.nasa.gov (Robert Michael Gutierrez) (01/25/91)
cseaman@sequent.UUCP (Chris "The Bartman" Seaman) writes: |> watters@skink.cis.ohio-state.edu (david r watters) writes: [...] |> < I constantly have to copy very large image files between two drives and I am |> < so damn sick of reconstructive all my partitions after they become currupted |> < by the "lockup" while writting. This also means that any work that I have |> < rendered must be rerendered making my financial gain half as much based on |> < time put in. I should NOT have to back up my partitions EACH day. |> |> First, I suspect that 'constant copying' of files is slightly overstated. |> Granted, you may be required to copy vast amounts of data, but do you |> really have continuous copies in progress? I do...like 30-40 megs at a time. Why?.. See below. |> Second, if you are attempting to use your computer in a business (as your |> article implies), then you should be expected to back up your hard disk |> each and every day. I've never been in a business which did otherwise. |> Many times I've been in situations where backups were required twice a |> day. That's *EXACTLY* why I was using more than 1 drive in my Amy. I was backing up my internal Quantum to the Syquest drive. I am *NOT* about to back up 30 megs to floppies, especially since I am also one of the people who generate 1-2 megs of anim files per week, and have to back up the changes every day. Of course, I _could_ use a tape drive...if there was some software for supporting tape drives on the 2091 (yes, I know of the PD tape driver, but that's not very pretty...) |> Again, if you are running a business, you cannot allow yourself to rely on |> hardware. Any hardware.... You're absolutely right, and I don't intend to rely on the 2091 anymore. I ordered GVP's Series-II through their upgrade offer. Hopefully, I'll be back in business in about a couple of weeks. robert
ridder@elvira.enet.dec.com (Hans Ridder) (01/26/91)
In article <51333@sequent.UUCP> cseaman@sequent.UUCP (Chris "The Bartman" Seaman) writes: >I've heard sufficient reports from people at Commodore, as well as users, >to believe that, when done properly, disabling reselect for ALL drives >connected to the 2091 will correct the lock-up problem. I don't want to get involved in the battle going on here, but I would like to point out that while disabling reselection does seem to correct *most* lock-up problems, it also has a significant impact on overall SCSI bus performance. Reslection isn't in the SCSI standard (and in high-performance drives) just for the fun of it. It allows SCSI devices to release the bus during time consuming operations, such as seeking, so that other devices have a chance. With this in mind, I think that, in my opinion, disabling reselection should be considered a *work around*, not a final fix. We have been told for a long time that a *fix* is in the works. I hope to see it soon, although I must admit that as time goes on, my hope does dwindle. >Chris -hans ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hans-Gabriel Ridder Digital Equipment Corporation ridder@elvira.enet.dec.com Customer Support Center ...decwrl!elvira.enet!ridder Colorado Springs, CO
jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) (01/27/91)
In article <51333@sequent.UUCP> cseaman@sequent.UUCP (Chris "The Bartman" Seaman) writes: >I've heard sufficient reports from people at Commodore, as well as users, >to believe that, when done properly, disabling reselect for ALL drives >connected to the 2091 will correct the lock-up problem. In doing further investigation I found that there is/was another problem involving certain WD/rom revs, having to do with interrupt latency. Some people may not have all their problems worked around by turning off reselection. This is dependant on machine type/configuration/drive type/ number of drives/rom rev/WD chip rev. (ugh) I'm told the not-yet-released roms will solve that problem also. No, I can't say when they will be released, sorry (even if I knew), or what the details will be. (The interrupt problem may also be fixed in one of the earlier 6.x rom releases, I don't know for certain - I'm not the one who does the scsi device driver.) >Although I don't (yet) have a second drive connected to my 2091, I went >through the paces of disabling reselect, and found that it is very easy to >THINK you completed the process, when in fact you have not. True. Here's a step-by-step guide to disabling reselection: Warning: it is possible to lose data in this procedure if a mistake is made. Backing up the drive immediately prior to this is recommended for safety. No warantee is stated or implied for these directions, they are written by myself and are not an official statement of Commodore-Amiga. You have been warned. First, go to the partitioning screen, turn on advanced options, and write down all the info on all the partitions. Particularily important are the cylinder numbers, partition names, and bootable/bootpri. Also write down anything else you modified (bad block lists, masks, etc). Go to the drive definition screen. Read configuration from drive (which does NOT read the RigidDiskBlock, it uses SCSI commands to ask the drive what it's layout is). Turn off reselection. Change the name of the drive so you can tell which one it is that you modified. Select OK to save it in the drive definitions file. Select the drive definition you just created, and select OK. It will tell you that all partitions will be lost if you save these changes. (This was why you wrote down the partitioning info earlier.) Select continue. The main screen should now show the partition as changed. Now go to the partitioning screen, and restore all the information you wrote down earlier (including any bad blocks from the bad block screen). When you're certain you have it all set up right, select OK to get back to the main screen, and then save changes to drive. If you did things right, it will not tell you that any partitions will be lost. If it does tell you that one or more partitions will be lost, then you made a mistake on the partitioning screen. Cancel, go back to partitioning, and try again. I have done this procedure on my drives to verify I had all the steps right. -- Randell Jesup, Keeper of AmigaDos, Commodore Engineering. {uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!jesup, jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com BIX: rjesup The compiler runs Like a swift-flowing river I wait in silence. (From "The Zen of Programming") ;-)