JKT100@psuvm.psu.edu (JKT) (02/09/91)
In article <1991Feb8.035143.25857@sbcs.sunysb.edu>, mrose@csserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (Michael Rose) says: > > I haven't seen any mention of it in the Amiga newsgroups for >awhile, but I was wondering if anyone had any info on the CD/TV. When >will it be available, how much? Commodore announced CDTV on Wednesday January 9th 1991 at the Winter Consumer Electronics Show (CES). The press conference drew quite a crowd, and representatives from the New York Times, MTV, The Wall Street Journal, and Billboard, amonth others, were spotted. In a subsequent report in Billboard, the suggested retail price of CDTV was listed as $999.00 CDTV will be test-marketed only in certain U.S. and UK cities, including New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco, Dallas, and Denver. It will be sold through such retailers as Montgomery Ward, Video Concepts, McDuff, and Software etc. In the UK, CDTV will be sold through Dixons. Availability is listed as "First Quarter 1991." >What are the specs on it, does it have a hard drive port? The spec sheet is quite long - but here's the important stuff: - 68000 @ 7MHz, 1 Mb RAM - 512K storage per front panel personal memory, or "smart card" - 8x oversampling, 102dB S/N, and 16-bit D/A converters - Will play standard audio CDs, CD+Graphics (CD+G), CD+MIDI, and CDTV propriatery format discs - Uses the ISO/9660 subset of the High Sierra standard CD format, so with the proper software drivers CDTV could read nearly any IBM or Mac CD-ROM on the market - Ports for infrared and wired peripherals, including keyboard, mouse, brick/trackball with joystick ports, external floppy drive, and handheld remote. - Optional SCSI interface - Serial and Parallel ports for printer and modem - Video output to NTSC, Super-NTSC, PAL, Composite/Hi8, and Super VHS. >How easy will it be to expand it into a complete >Amiga computer system (ie. Keyboard, mouse, hard drive, monitor, memory >expansion, other upgrades, etc...)? Most of this is covered above. The keyboard, mouse, joysticks, etc. are all infrared remote units - you will be able to do Amiga computing from your armchair across the room! :-) >Does it come with ECS? This is a video machine... I'd be VERY surprised if the Super Agnus were not on board. No word on the Super Denise. By the way: CDTV runs under 1.3.2, not 2.0, in case anyone was wondering. >I remember hearing somewhere that CD's had to be placed in a tray to be >played in it, is that just for CD-ROMS or for audio CD's too? Nope. It has normal CD insertion just like any other CD player. > I've also heard that industry standard CD-I players are going >to be released later this year. What is Commodore planning to do >to compete with the CD-I players? Will the CD/TV be upgraded in the >future to provide full-motion playback of CD-I disc's? I too have been concerned with the potential CDTV and CD/I battle. Here is what I have found after asking many questions: - Nolan Bushnell (head of Commodore's new Interactive Consumer Products Division) does not foresee the two products competing for the same market. "The units have different capabilities," he says. - I somewhat disagree, because most families will not have the $$$ to purchase both. They will get one or the other. However: - Robert Baker says that many CD/I developers are develping or have already finished CDTV versions of their software. Therefore, CD/I won't have much to offer that CDTV won't have. - CD/I has yet to be shown to anyone after years of waiting. CDTV will be out for a while before CD/I is introduced. Besides, I suspect that CDTV could emulate a CD/I unit if necessary. :-) - Commodore plans to make CDTV compatible with the Moving Picture Expert Group (MPEG) full-screen, full-motion standard once it is established. C= is waiting for the standard, and will support it when it exists. > Sorry to ask so many questions, but I really want to get a >CD player soon and I've been wanting to get an Amiga for a long time. >The CD/TV seems like the perfect solution. Thanks for your help! I understand and sympathize. CDTV does indeed sound like a great solution for anyone wanting both a CD player and an Amiga > -Michael Rose Kurt -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- || Kurt Tappe (215) 363-9485 || With. Without. And who'll || || 184 W. Valley Hill Rd. || deny it's what the fighting's || || Malvern, PA 19355-2214 || all about? - Pink Floyd || || jkt100@psuvm.psu.edu --------------------------------------|| || jkt100@psuvm.bitnet jkt100%psuvm.bitnet@psuvax1 QLink: KurtTappe || -----------------------------------------------------------------------
taab5@ccvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (02/11/91)
In message <1991Feb10.142143./22256@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu> <ddarling@hobbes.ncsu.edu> writes: >Note for following: I've been a CD-I advocate since 1988. > >|>I've also heard that industry standard CD-I players are going >|>to be released later this year. What is Commodore planning to do >|>to compete with the CD-I players? >| >| I too have been concerned with the potential CDTV and CD/I battle. >| Here is what I have found after asking many questions: >| >|- CD/I has yet to be shown to anyone after years of waiting. CDTV >| will be out for a while before CD/I is introduced. > >CD-I has been in industrial use since at least Spring, 1990. The US Army >has developed a disc giving quick online aid to doctors about battlefield >injuries. Renault has implemented a CD-I system for training its >dealerships worldwide; the info is in a choice of languages on one disc. >Principle Mutual Life has a training CD-I kiosk in Des Moines IA. > >The home consumer units could be out this summer (at last). Over ten >companies are manufacturing players. They've been shown several times >at Japanese electronics exhibitions in the last year. > >In addition, there is work being done on using CD-I over ISDN networks. >And one company will be making applications available over phone lines. >> >| Besides, I suspect that CDTV could emulate a CD/I unit if necessary. :-) > >Sure :-) It would "just" need the CD-I OS ported to it (possible); and add >the CD-I video hardware (dual, coprocessor-equipped 8-bit video systems >with hardware fade and 16 million colors, combinable to a 15-bit output, >realtime color RLE file display, faster cpu, etc)... again possible. $$?? > > >So the question is, if a consumer walks into a store, will he choose from: > A) dozens of CD-I players (including LCD portables! already shown in Japan) > from giants Matsushita, Yamaha, Sony, Philips, Pioneer, and so on, > all compatible with the CD-I global standard (which will also bring > huge competition in features and quickly dropping prices)? ..OR... > B) the lone, single-source, incompatible, and video-inferior CDTV unit? > >I *will* say that only CBM/Amiga could've thrown together "competition" to >CD-I so quickly. However, the main thing I think CDTV will do, is piss >off some early consumers who naively spend $$ on it before CD-I hits town. >That's partly why I oppose CDTV in the home market. Ooops. Has this >become an .advocacy item already? <sigh> - kevin <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu> I agree strongly. I really don't see much of a chance that the CDTV will succeed, since it will be marketed directly against the better- supported and technologically-superior CD-I machines. If anyone doubts this, I take you back several year, to the battle between the Beta and VHS video-tape systems. Sony came out with Beta first, and for a long time Beta VCRs were the only VCRs on the market. Not only that, but the Beta systems were superior to the VHS systems, that came out later. This didn't help Sony much, though. You have to look very long and hard to find any Beta VCRs being sold today. And it is equally difficult to find any video-tape rental places that stock prerecorded tapes in Beta format. Even Sony themselves has all but totally abandoned the format that they pioneered, and is selling VHS machines almost exclusively now. What happened to Beta? Exactly what will happen to the CDTV. For a long time, sony was the only company selling Beta VCRs, while a huge conglomorate backed VHS. The result was that VHS recieved more support than Beta, and consumers bought VHS the better-supported VHS machines instead of the superior Beta machines. If consumers have a choice between two competing formats for what is essentially the same product, the consumers will buy the one has the most support, even if it is technologically inferior to the others. Consumers always opt for convenience over performance, and this is the reason that IBM-compatible systems outsell Amigas and MACs, and is the reason behind the success of VHS over Beta. Once the CD-I machines start to come out, they will get far more support than the CDTV. There will be far more outlets cropping up that sell CD-I software than CDTV software. And, as a result, consumers will buy the CD-I systems over the CDTV. Commodore is in a very bad position with the CDTV. The CD-I systems are not guaranteed to succeed wildly, either. If the CD-I systems succeed, the CDTV could fail. If the CD-I systems fail, the CDTV will probably fail with them. Needless to say, I am not very optimistic about the CDTV. I really don't see how Commodore really has the smallest chance aginst a conglomorate of competing companies. The only way that I envision the CDTV succeeding, is if Commodore finds a way to make the CDTV run CD-I software, and this doesn't seem likely in light of the video superiority of the CD-I hardware. -MB-
taab5@ccvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (02/11/91)
In article <91041.163331AXN100@psuvm.psu.edu>, <AXN100@psuvm.psu.edu> writes: > Mark please check your facts before you post. The reason that Beta > failed was because of Sony's desire to dominate the marketplace. Sony who > developed the Beta format did not licence the format to other VCR makers. > JVC (who I beleive developed the VHS format) licenced the format to other > makers. If you recall the battle of formats, the only maker of Beta was > Sony. Yes, toward the endSony licenced the format to others, but by then > it was too late. If C= can get some market share before CD-I comes out, and > then licence the techonlogy to others, it will succeed. Do you think Commodore is even going to consider licensing the CDTV trchnology to other companies? HECK NO!! The CDTV is an Amiga, and licensing the CDTV to other companies would be tantamount to allowing dozens of companies to produce Amiga clones. Commodore will not license the CDTV technology to other companies, period. > Ajai -MB-
watters@apache.cis.ohio-state.edu (david r watters) (02/11/91)
In article <1991Feb11.073451.1@ccvax.iastate.edu> taab5@ccvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: >In article <91041.163331AXN100@psuvm.psu.edu>, <AXN100@psuvm.psu.edu> writes: >> Mark please check your facts before you post. The reason that Beta >> failed was because of Sony's desire to dominate the marketplace. Sony who >> developed the Beta format did not licence the format to other VCR makers. >> JVC (who I beleive developed the VHS format) licenced the format to other >> makers. If you recall the battle of formats, the only maker of Beta was >> Sony. Yes, toward the endSony licenced the format to others, but by then >> it was too late. If C= can get some market share before CD-I comes out, and >> then licence the techonlogy to others, it will succeed. > Do you think Commodore is even going to consider licensing the CDTV >trchnology to other companies? HECK NO!! The CDTV is an Amiga, and >licensing the CDTV to other companies would be tantamount to allowing >dozens of companies to produce Amiga clones. I thought a well-respected Rag has already stated that C-A _IS_ going to do this very thing! I think it would be a _SMART_ move! Why would licensing CDTV technology result in amiga clones? A Dozen Amiga clones..... HAHAHAHAHAhahahahah....... Don't we wish! Would that include a Portable-Clone, how about an '040 clone? I think Mr. Foot-in-Mouth has stumbled, tripped, fallen flat-on-face, discovered something here. > > Commodore will not license the CDTV technology to other companies, >period. > -MB- "Mark" these words, pun intended! Do you think C-A knows what they are and aren't going to do before Mark tells them.. or after? :-) -- "All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars. All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars!" - RUSH David watters@cis.ohio-state.edu "It's 12:35... and Michigan STILL sucks." _-_-_-__---_---_---__-_-_-____ TurboExpress : The Neo*Geo of portables _____
AXN100@psuvm.psu.edu (02/11/91)
Mark, CDTV is a format. It should not require an Amiga to drive it.
Most likely, if commodore licences the technology, makers will produce
CDTV with other computers to drive it. Note, I am assuming this because
you can purchase a CDTV compatable CD-ROM player for your Amiga now. If
I wrong someone who knows correct me. However, Mark, you should retract
your statemet about Beta and CDTV being the same. The reason Beta failed
is due to the greed of Sony. The reasons CDTV succeeds or fails cannot be
assesed now.
Ajaislfields@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Scott L Fields) (02/12/91)
In article <1991Feb11.073451.1@ccvax.iastate.edu> taab5@ccvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: >In article <91041.163331AXN100@psuvm.psu.edu>, <AXN100@psuvm.psu.edu> writes: >> Mark please check your facts before you post. The reason that Beta >> failed was because of Sony's desire to dominate the marketplace. Sony who >> developed the Beta format did not licence the format to other VCR makers. >> JVC (who I beleive developed the VHS format) licenced the format to other >> makers. If you recall the battle of formats, the only maker of Beta was >> Sony. Yes, toward the endSony licenced the format to others, but by then >> it was too late. If C= can get some market share before CD-I comes out, and >> then licence the techonlogy to others, it will succeed. > > Do you think Commodore is even going to consider licensing the CDTV >trchnology to other companies? HECK NO!! The CDTV is an Amiga, and >licensing the CDTV to other companies would be tantamount to allowing >dozens of companies to produce Amiga clones. > > Commodore will not license the CDTV technology to other companies, >period. It is this same type of attitude that stirs a LOT of hatred toward APPLE. Also, in my opinion, this will also spell the ultimate downfall of Apple. The better computer is not destined to win. Usually, it is the computer that is used the most. This definately leans toward the IBM camp. Granted, there always the niche markets, but widely public machines are the ones that dominate the market. The bigger question might be can Commodore convince others to make clones of theirs? -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Fields slfields@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu University of Oklahoma --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) (02/12/91)
> [Lots of stuff deleted...] > > I agree strongly. I really don't see much of a chance that the CDTV > will succeed, since it will be marketed directly against the better- > supported and technologically-superior CD-I machines. Actually, you may find this surprising but I disagree with you. > > If anyone doubts this, I take you back several year, to the battle > between the Beta and VHS video-tape systems. Sony came out with Beta > first, and for a long time Beta VCRs were the only VCRs on the market. > Not only that, but the Beta systems were superior to the VHS systems, > that came out later. Are you equating Beta to CDTV? If you are, then your logic is flawed. I really doubt that CDTV represents the better of the two technologies. Rather I suspect CD-I to be more sophisticated. CD-I would be better compared to BETA VCRs than CDTV. This means that you are arguing for CDTV and against CD-I. :-) > > This didn't help Sony much, though. You have to look very long and > hard to find any Beta VCRs being sold today. And it is equally difficult > to find any video-tape rental places that stock prerecorded tapes in Beta > format. Even Sony themselves has all but totally abandoned the format > that they pioneered, and is selling VHS machines almost exclusively > now. > > What happened to Beta? Exactly what will happen to the CDTV. For a > long time, sony was the only company selling Beta VCRs, while a huge > conglomorate backed VHS. > > The result was that VHS recieved more support than Beta, and consumers > bought VHS the better-supported VHS machines instead of the superior > Beta machines. > I think you are arguing for CDTV but you don't realize it! I know that CD-I is supposed to be available soon and around $1000. If it actually delivers at that price I will be amazed. I believe that CD-I and CDTV are really two different markets. I do not think the target of CD-I was to be put it into every home in America, at least not initally. I defer to Kevin Darling however on this point. I do think that the combination of CD Player and a Amiga computer is going to be tough to beat. > If consumers have a choice between two competing formats for what is > essentially the same product, the consumers will buy the one has the > most support, even if it is technologically inferior to the others. > Consumers always opt for convenience over performance, and this is > the reason that IBM-compatible systems outsell Amigas and MACs, and is > the reason behind the success of VHS over Beta. First judging from what I have seen. Most consumers have no _idea_ which system is technically better. I agree with you in that the number of applications available will make the difference. IF CDTV delievers in the next couple of months, I believe Commodore will be sitting on top with the most applications, since consumer based CD-I technology is not available at this point. > > Once the CD-I machines start to come out, they will get far more > support than the CDTV. There will be far more outlets cropping up that > sell CD-I software than CDTV software. And, as a result, consumers > will buy the CD-I systems over the CDTV. Conjecture on your point, based on what I think are false assumptions. > > Commodore is in a very bad position with the CDTV. The CD-I systems > are not guaranteed to succeed wildly, either. If the CD-I systems > succeed, the CDTV could fail. If the CD-I systems fail, the CDTV will > probably fail with them. There were individuals who also said that Commodore did not know what they were doing when they introduced the Commodore 64. Fortunately, the detractors were wrong. _IF_ there are really products for CDTV and Commodore does some serious hard hitting teleivison advertisng, they will have found their cash cow for the ninties. > > Needless to say, I am not very optimistic about the CDTV. I really > don't see how Commodore really has the smallest chance aginst a > conglomorate of competing companies. The only way that I envision > the CDTV succeeding, is if Commodore finds a way to make the CDTV > run CD-I software, and this doesn't seem likely in light of the video > superiority of the CD-I hardware. I on the other hand am quite excited about CDTV. I am applauding the recent decision to allow Amiga dealers to carry them. I know I want one... :-) > > -MB- -mark= +--------+ ================================================== | \/ | Mark D. Manes "Mr. AmigaVision" | /\ \/ | manes@vger.nsu.edu | / | (804) 683-2532 "Make up your own mind! - AMIGA" +--------+ ==================================================
orovner@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Oleg Rovner) (02/12/91)
father, forgive Mark Barret, for he knows not what he says... (;-) Beta v VHS: uhhh, the reason VHS succeeded was because the VHS machines were the first out with the full length format. By the time Beta tapes with the full 2hrs worth had rolled out, it was too late... Of course Sony's refusal to license out the technology did not help either... CBM licensing out Amiga technology: I believe motherboards are available as OEM items, and although their pricing does not encourage Amiga clones, that could change. Third party support for CDTV: one of the recent issues of Computer Gaming World (the most recent I've read, I think it was the one with Powermonger review in it) mentioned several companies putting out games for the machine, and we all know that Joe Consumer plays gamesand not Lotus at home :-). CDTV is headed for the homes of yuppies worldwide. For just a few dollars more than a GOOD CD player (not really, more like ~$400 more), one can have the ultimate in entertainment. What would have been nice is the option to play Laser Disks, but I guess you cannot have everything, and CD+G should be satisfactory :-) OR -- ************************************************************************ GOD BLESS AMERICA! SUPPORT OUR TROOPS AND OUR ALLIES! FREE KUWAIT! ************************************************************************
leeg@mcrware.UUCP (Lee Glenn) (02/12/91)
In article <91042.092843AXN100@psuvm.psu.edu> AXN100@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > > Mark, CDTV is a format. It should not require an Amiga to drive it. > Most likely, if commodore licences the technology, makers will produce > CDTV with other computers to drive it. Note, I am assuming this because > you can purchase a CDTV compatable CD-ROM player for your Amiga now. If > I wrong someone who knows correct me. > Ajai Well, yes and no. CDTV IS a format, but it requires what is essentially an Amiga to drive it. At least this is what I gather from the print media. An analogy: Atari ST's and IBM PC's have (had?) the same floppy disk format. While it was possible to read data from disks made from either machine, it was not possible to run programs, since the respective CPU's and related hardware shared very little in common. -Lee