mpierce@ewu.UUCP (Ewu) (11/12/90)
Does anyone know what hardware is on the A2320? Does it have other chips in addition to the de-interlacer hardware? I'm curious if it has the new enhanced chips (or some of them) on board, or is it made to work with the ECS or is it made to work with or without the ECS? Sorry if this is a repeat request, but I'm new to the net and have only seen a few posts on the subject. -Matt Pierce
hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) (11/13/90)
In article <1333@ewu.UUCP> mpierce@ewu.UUCP (Ewu) writes: >Does anyone know what hardware is on the A2320? Does it have other chips >in addition to the de-interlacer hardware? I'm curious if it has the new >enhanced chips (or some of them) on board, or is it made to work with the >ECS or is it made to work with or without the ECS? > >Sorry if this is a repeat request, but I'm new to the net and have only seen >a few posts on the subject. > >-Matt Pierce The A2320 has the same display enhancer hardware as on the A3000. This does not include the ECS chip set but the A2320 does work with this chip set if you have it installed by automatically getting out of the way when you use the new `productivity mode' of the ECS (which requires AmigaDos 2.0). Thus the A2320 can work in a system very well that both has or does not have the ECS chip set and you will still get an improved display. Hope this helps, Scott Hood -- -- Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!"
hakimian%tek4@YODA.EECS.WSU.EDU (11/27/90)
Could someone send me the pinouts for the a2320? I have just ordered one and I would like to build the cable before it gets here. Thanks. Karl Hakimian hakimian@yoda.eecs.wsu.edu
dal@mars.UUCP (Dan Loftus) (01/24/91)
Can anyone tell me what the price range is for an A2320. I haven't seen it advertized anywhere. -- ----- Dan Loftus burdvax.prc.unisys.com!wpllabs!mars!dal
Greg_Bastow@mindlink.UUCP (Greg Bastow) (01/29/91)
Re : A2320 DVE Hmm, now with the 'Toaster making it's rounds into people's video slot, is Commodore re-camping this card so we can plug into an ordinary Amiga expansion slot. Greg Bastow
tinyguy@cs.mcgill.ca (Yeo-Hoon BAE) (01/29/91)
In article <dal.3218@mars.UUCP> dal@mars.UUCP (Dan Loftus) writes: >Can anyone tell me what the price range is for an A2320. I haven't >seen it advertized anywhere. > >-- >----- >Dan Loftus > >burdvax.prc.unisys.com!wpllabs!mars!dal It is selling at $239 US at several places including Creative Compuers, which I made my order... +-----------------------------------------------------------+-------------+ | Yeo-Hoon Bae tinyguy@homer.cs.mcgill.ca | Amiga /// | | Dept. Computer Science, McGill University, Canada | 2000 /// | |-----------------------------------------------------------| \\\/// | | Amiga2000 + 5MB + 104MB HD + KX-P1124 + Mit. DiamondScan | \XX/ | +-----------------------------------------------------------+-------------+
hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) (01/30/91)
In article <3898@rwthinf.UUCP> helmutn@cip-s01.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Helmut Neumann) writes: >Hello, >i've read in the new german Amiga-Magazin about the A2320. They say, that >it supports (!) superhires and productivity. Now my question : Does it >support these modes, that means can you de-interlace productivity interlace >and superhires interlace to get a non-interlaced resolution of 640x960 or >1280x512, or does it just send these modes through to the monitor leaving >them unaffected. Maybe it leaves out every second vertical pixel, like the >other de-interlacers on the market do. If so, i don't understand the high price >compared to an other well known de-interlacer in germany. If someone owns both, >the super-denise and A2320, please try out and tell me your experience. > >Bye, Helmut. The A2320 does support the new ECS display modes, but does so by getting out of the way (automatic detection of productivity modes and pass-through). With the superhires display mode the user must toggle the bypass switch manually. By the way, what are the prices in Germany of the A2320 and the other de-interlacer products you mention? Scott Hood od -- -- Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!"
swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) (01/30/91)
In article <3898@rwthinf.UUCP> helmutn@cip-s01.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Helmut Neumann) writes: >Hello, >i've read in the new german Amiga-Magazin about the A2320. They say, that >it supports (!) superhires and productivity. Now my question : Does it >support these modes, that means can you de-interlace productivity interlace >and superhires interlace to get a non-interlaced resolution of 640x960 or >1280x512, or does it just send these modes through to the monitor leaving >them unaffected. Maybe it leaves out every second vertical pixel, like the >other de-interlacers on the market do.If so, i don't understand the high price >compared to an other well known de-interlacer in germany.If someone owns both, >the super-denise and A2320, please try out and tell me your experience. High price??!?! Gee, the only other deinterlacer I've seen that I've actually verified is real and people have it in their machines is the FlickerFixer(TM). The 2320 is about $100 cheaper in the US. Do you have a different de-interlacer in Germany that is even cheaper? If so, what is it called and what does it sell for, and what are its capabilities? -- _. --Steve ._||__ DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own. Warren v\ *| ---------------------------------------------- V {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.com
helmutn@cip-s01.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Helmut Neumann) (01/30/91)
Hello, in reply to the two questions (up to now) about the other deinterlacer in germany. It is called Macro-Systems de-interlacer, the price in germany is about 450,- DM. To set this in relation the price announced for the commodore A2320 is 690,- DM, but i have seen it for 600,- DM. Special features of the Macro-Systems de-interlacer is a dynamic screen-repeat-rate (i hope you understand what i mean), if you use a 640x400 ntsc resolution it is 70 hz. It only depends on the chosen number of lines. When tou use pal overscan it is the normal 50 Hz. The second feature is an integrated stereo amplifier, so you can add the speakers you miss in your multisync. The disadvantage is that it can not handle productivity and leaves out every second pixel at superhires. But productivity is really useless when you have this card, because the refresh rate is also about 60 Hz at productivity resolution and you are not limited in colours, not to mention that 4 colour hires-interlace leaves some cycles for the processor when accessing chip-ram compared to productivity. I know, that if i could buy the A2320 in america, it would be cheaper than the other one. But the prices in germany are as stated above. Bye, Helmut.
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (01/31/91)
In article <4618@mindlink.UUCP> Greg_Bastow@mindlink.UUCP (Greg Bastow) writes: >Re : A2320 DVE > > Hmm, now with the 'Toaster making it's rounds into people's video slot, is >Commodore re-camping this card so we can plug into an ordinary Amiga expansion >slot. No, that's totally impossible. The video slot carries many signals not available on an ordinary expansion slot. Signals of high frequency, that also *must not* be led across big distances to those slots. -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
wfaust@venus.UUCP (Wolf Faust) (01/31/91)
In article <3901@rwthinf.UUCP>, Helmut Neumann writes: > Special features of the > Macro-Systems de-interlacer is a dynamic screen-repeat-rate (i hope you > understand what i mean), if you use a 640x400 ntsc resolution it is 70 hz. It > only depends on the chosen number of lines. When tou use pal overscan it is > the normal 50 Hz. The second feature is an integrated stereo amplifier, so you > can add the speakers you miss in your multisync. The disadvantage is that it > can not handle productivity and leaves out every second pixel at superhires. > But productivity is really useless when you have this card, because the refresh rate is also about 60 Hz at productivity resolution and you are not limited in > colours, not to mention that 4 colour hires-interlace leaves some cycles for > the processor when accessing chip-ram compared to productivity. Some things are stated wrong: 1. What you mentioned as "dynamic screen-repeat-rate" is also possibel on an A2320 card without any change!! The utility wich does this nice frequency job is called "RefreshTool" and comes with MacroSystems flickerfixer. As far as I know, you can also buy this program extra (should be something arround $10-$20). It's not KS 2.0 compatible and has a really ugly user-interface in my opinion, but does it work... 2. What you mentioned as disadvantage (superhires...) for the MacroSystems deinterlace card is also true for the A2320 :-( (that's why you have the switch on an A3000!) So, after all... the main difference is the stereo amplifier and the price! ----- Wolf Faust UUCP:cbmvax.commodore.com!cbmehq!cbmger!venus!wfaust Tel: (+49)69 5486556 FIDO: 2:243/43.5
hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) (02/02/91)
In article <189bc930.ARN13b6@venus.UUCP> cbmvax.commodore.com!cbmehq!cbmger!venus!wfaust writes: >In article <3901@rwthinf.UUCP>, Helmut Neumann writes: > >> Special features of the >> Macro-Systems de-interlacer is a dynamic screen-repeat-rate (i hope you >> understand what i mean), if you use a 640x400 ntsc resolution it is 70 hz. It >> only depends on the chosen number of lines. When tou use pal overscan it is >> the normal 50 Hz. The second feature is an integrated stereo amplifier, so you >> can add the speakers you miss in your multisync. The disadvantage is that it >> can not handle productivity and leaves out every second pixel at superhires. >> But productivity is really useless when you have this card, because the refresh rate is also about 60 Hz at productivity resolution and you are not limited in >> colours, not to mention that 4 colour hires-interlace leaves some cycles for >> the processor when accessing chip-ram compared to productivity. > >Some things are stated wrong: > >1. What you mentioned as "dynamic screen-repeat-rate" is also >possibel on an A2320 card without any change!! The utility wich >does this nice frequency job is called "RefreshTool" and comes >with MacroSystems flickerfixer. As far as I know, you can also buy >this program extra (should be something arround $10-$20). It's not >KS 2.0 compatible and has a really ugly user-interface in my >opinion, but does it work... > >2. What you mentioned as disadvantage (superhires...) for the >MacroSystems deinterlace card is also true for the A2320 :-( >(that's why you have the switch on an A3000!) > >So, after all... the main difference is the stereo amplifier and >the price! >----- >Wolf Faust UUCP:cbmvax.commodore.com!cbmehq!cbmger!venus!wfaust >Tel: (+49)69 5486556 FIDO: 2:243/43.5 Wolf, What do you mean when you say "dynamic screen-repeat-rate"? The A2320 is the only display enchancer card that I know of that has a scan-double mode of operation when in non-interlaced Amiga display modes. This means that the A2320 just does a line repeat, instead of a de-interlace function. This operation then does not induce any motion artifacts with rapidly moving objects (good for games, animations, etc.) that would be induced if the device tried to de-interlace the data all the time (i.e. just like the MicroWay FlickerFixer, TM). This is also automatic and requires no software. The price of 690 DM is really high! I guess all those taxes, import duties, etc., all have an effect! The SUGGESTED price in the USA is $299 list. Hope this helps, Scott Hood -- -- Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!"
wfaust@venus.UUCP (Wolf Faust) (02/03/91)
In article <18435@cbmvax.commodore.com>, Scott Hood writes: > What do you mean when you say "dynamic screen-repeat-rate"? The A2320 > is the only display enchancer card that I know of that has a scan-double > mode of operation when in non-interlaced Amiga display modes. This > means that the A2320 just does a line repeat, instead of a de-interlace > function. This operation then does not induce any motion artifacts with > rapidly moving objects (good for games, animations, etc.) that would be > induced if the device tried to de-interlace the data all the time (i.e. > just like the MicroWay FlickerFixer, TM). This is also automatic and > requires no software. Well, A2320 is not the only flickerfixer wich does double scan. As I wrote before: MacroSystems deinterlace card does mainly everything what A2320 does and more... "dynamic screen-repeat-rate" means, your flickerfixer can output images with frequences other than 50Hz (PAL) and 60Hz (NTSC). For instance, I can use "Refreshtool" to change the screen frequency from 60Hz (NTSC) to 70Hz(!) with a resolution of 640*400. The flicker is much less and I also have a much sharper picture... :-) ----- Wolf Faust UUCP:cbmvax.commodore.com!cbmehq!cbmger!venus!wfaust Tel: (+49)69 5486556 FIDO: 2:243/43.5
JKT100@psuvm.psu.edu (JKT) (02/04/91)
In article <816@cbmger.UUCP>, peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) says: >In article <4618@mindlink.UUCP> Greg_Bastow@mindlink.UUCP (Greg Bastow) >writes: >> >> Hmm, now with the 'Toaster making it's rounds into people's video slot, is >>Commodore re-camping this card so we can plug into an ordinary Amiga >>expansion slot. > >No, that's totally impossible. The video slot carries many signals not >available on an ordinary expansion slot. Signals of high frequency, that >also *must not* be led across big distances to those slots. ??? If the above is true, then how is MicroWay managing their DEB (Denise Expansion Board) which allows the flickerFixer to reside in a normal slot? What they do is connect the flickerFixer up to the Denise slot and piggyback the Denise Chip on their Denise connector. But if the signals cannot be led across distances such as they are doing, then how are they doing it? I agree with many others in this group that if MicroWay can do it with the flickerFixer, C= can do it with the A2320. Besides, didn't Scott Hood say he was looking into such a device?? >Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... >Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk Kurt -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- || Kurt Tappe (215) 363-9485 || With. Without. And who'll || || 184 W. Valley Hill Rd. || deny it's what the fighting's || || Malvern, PA 19355-2214 || all about? - Pink Floyd || || jkt100@psuvm.psu.edu --------------------------------------|| || jkt100@psuvm.bitnet jkt100%psuvm.bitnet@psuvax1 QLink: KurtTappe || -----------------------------------------------------------------------
helmutn@cip-s01.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Helmut Neumann) (02/04/91)
> (that's why you have to switch to A3000)!
Hello,
does this mean, that the A3000 can de-interlace the super-hires mode ? If not,
and i think it can not, your sugestion is nonsense. I don't see any advantage of
using of using an A3000 instead of an A2320 (except the price ;-)). I feel very
good with my 3001, the only thing i want to add is a nice hires-mode. And for
this i will first buy the new denise and wait for a flicker-fixer to work with
1280x512. The flicker-fixers on the market now have one big disadvantage, when
scrolling text or moving the mouse you see stripes, e.g. if you scroll with
cygnus-ed, you only see every second line of each character. I hope that
productivity does not have this problem.
Bye, Helmut.helmutn@cip-s01.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Helmut Neumann) (02/04/91)
Hello, the Macro-System de-interlacer has this scan-double mode too. This removes the black lines when using zzzx256 resolution. The problems stated in my previous article occur only when using interlaced modes ! Bye, Helmut.
hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) (02/04/91)
In article <189ee486.ARN13cf@venus.UUCP> cbmvax.commodore.com!cbmehq!cbmger!venus!wfaust writes: >In article <18435@cbmvax.commodore.com>, Scott Hood writes: > >> What do you mean when you say "dynamic screen-repeat-rate"? The A2320 >> is the only display enchancer card that I know of that has a scan-double >> mode of operation when in non-interlaced Amiga display modes. This >> means that the A2320 just does a line repeat, instead of a de-interlace >> function. This operation then does not induce any motion artifacts with >> rapidly moving objects (good for games, animations, etc.) that would be >> induced if the device tried to de-interlace the data all the time (i.e. >> just like the MicroWay FlickerFixer, TM). This is also automatic and >> requires no software. > >Well, A2320 is not the only flickerfixer wich does double scan. As >I wrote before: MacroSystems deinterlace card does mainly everything what >A2320 does and more... > >"dynamic screen-repeat-rate" means, your flickerfixer can >output images with frequences other than 50Hz (PAL) and >60Hz (NTSC). For instance, I can use "Refreshtool" to change the >screen frequency from 60Hz (NTSC) to 70Hz(!) with a resolution of >640*400. The flicker is much less and I also have a much sharper >picture... :-) >----- >Wolf Faust UUCP:cbmvax.commodore.com!cbmehq!cbmger!venus!wfaust >Tel: (+49)69 5486556 FIDO: 2:243/43.5 I might mention that you can also do the exact same thing with the A2320! We have a PAL 70Hz display icon that under WB2.0 allows the user to display a 640(plus horizontal overscan up to 768) x 388 de-interlaced display at 70Hz refreash rate and no more system bandwidth problems of a normal 640x512 interlaced display. The Amiga actually puts out a 35Hz interlaced display that the A2320 or A3000 display enhancer de-interlaces to 70Hz! Hope this helps, Scott Hood -- -- Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!"
ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu (Eat shit) (02/05/91)
I have a question on the subject of the deinterlacer: I am using the A3000, and if I choose a PAL display, the screen will flash (bright/dim) very rapidly (no flicker, though). Is this the 1950B monitor, or something internal? Doug ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu -- "I/O's revenge is at hand." - Hennessy & Patterson
ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu (Doug Dyer) (02/05/91)
OOps, sorry for my name string. Just stepped out of a joking feud and forgot to chfn. God I HATE responsibility. -- "I/O's revenge is at hand." - Hennessy & Patterson
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (02/05/91)
In article <18528@cbmvax.commodore.com> hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) writes: > > I might mention that you can also do the exact same thing with the >A2320! We have a PAL 70Hz display icon that under WB2.0 allows the user ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >to display a 640(plus horizontal overscan up to 768) x 388 de-interlaced >display at 70Hz refreash rate and no more system bandwidth problems of a >normal 640x512 interlaced display. The Amiga actually puts out a 35Hz >interlaced display that the A2320 or A3000 display enhancer >de-interlaces to 70Hz! PLEASE TELL US: Where do we get this? I never saw such a beast. I know I REALLY WANT this. It was not not on the latest 36.xxx WB disk. Do I have to look somewhere else? If we could provide this as a standard feature, it would give a BIG PLUS as marketing argument! Until now I only heard that such an option would be possible for some hackers, but when it is officially provided... Oh boy! But do I understand this correct: This would only be possible on the A3000 with its increased bandwidth, or would an A2000 with ECS do already? -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) (02/05/91)
In article <12912@hubcap.clemson.edu> ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu (Eat shit) writes: > >I have a question on the subject of the deinterlacer: > > I am using the A3000, and if I choose a PAL display, the screen >will flash (bright/dim) very rapidly (no flicker, though). Is this the >1950B monitor, or something internal? > >Doug >ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu > >-- >"I/O's revenge is at hand." - Hennessy & Patterson What you are seeing is the 50Hz PAL refresh rate (pity the poor Europeans who have to watch TV like this) which appears to flicker. This is not a line interlace flicker in this case, but a frame flicker. It is made worse by the 10Hz beating between the 50Hz display and viewing the display in a room of florescent (?) lights that are running of the 120V 60Hz power. Regards, Scott Hood -- -- Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!"
hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) (02/05/91)
In article <91034.211900JKT100@psuvm.psu.edu> JKT100@psuvm.psu.edu (JKT) writes: >In article <816@cbmger.UUCP>, peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) says: >>In article <4618@mindlink.UUCP> Greg_Bastow@mindlink.UUCP (Greg Bastow) >>writes: >>> >>> Hmm, now with the 'Toaster making it's rounds into people's video slot, is >>>Commodore re-camping this card so we can plug into an ordinary Amiga >>>expansion slot. >> >>No, that's totally impossible. The video slot carries many signals not >>available on an ordinary expansion slot. Signals of high frequency, that >>also *must not* be led across big distances to those slots. > >??? If the above is true, then how is MicroWay managing their DEB >(Denise Expansion Board) which allows the flickerFixer to reside in >a normal slot? What they do is connect the flickerFixer up to the Denise >slot and piggyback the Denise Chip on their Denise connector. But if >the signals cannot be led across distances such as they are doing, then >how are they doing it? I agree with many others in this group that if >MicroWay can do it with the flickerFixer, C= can do it with the A2320. > >Besides, didn't Scott Hood say he was looking into such a device?? > >>Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... >>Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk > > Kurt >-- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >|| Kurt Tappe (215) 363-9485 || With. Without. And who'll || >|| 184 W. Valley Hill Rd. || deny it's what the fighting's || >|| Malvern, PA 19355-2214 || all about? - Pink Floyd || >|| jkt100@psuvm.psu.edu --------------------------------------|| >|| jkt100@psuvm.bitnet jkt100%psuvm.bitnet@psuvax1 QLink: KurtTappe || > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry, but I DIDN'T say that I am looking into such a device! I think the above comment was not from a technical issue but is from an FCC issue in that running the digital pixel data and clocks over a foot of ribbon cable is MOST likely going to push the A2000 WAY over the FCC class B limit for EMI emissions. A third-party company might get away with this but Commodore would steer clear of such a prospect. It may be possible that the A2320 will also work in the DEB device but I have not tried this and do not know it if works. Regards, Scott Hood -- -- Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!"
jmt@legend.cma.fr (Jean-Marc Tanzi) (02/06/91)
In article <18572@cbmvax.commodore.com>, hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) writes: > What you are seeing is the 50Hz PAL refresh rate (pity the poor > Europeans who have to watch TV like this) which appears to flicker. Jesus! You have got real good eyes to be able to see the difference between 50Hz and 60Hz refresh rates. I never noticed flicker on my TV. European TV is not bad. Just come and have a look, you'll be welcome. > It is made worse by the 10Hz beating between the 50Hz display and ... [ 60Hz lights ] That should be the real problem. Quite easy to check, by the way. -- ============================================================================= Jean-Marc Tanzi | Millions of years to make oil and forests, jmt@cma.cma.fr | a century to burn them. Mankind versus Nature: 100000 to 1. | Will Mankind find a tougher planetary opponent?
colas@lemur.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) (02/06/91)
In article <18572@cbmvax.commodore.com>, hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) writes: > What you are seeing is the 50Hz PAL refresh rate (pity the poor > Europeans who have to watch TV like this) which appears to flicker. Obviously, you didn't look at an european TV, which has a MUCH better quality than NTSC (except when they brodcast american serials :-)). Moreover you are forgotting the fact that movies are at 24Hz, and no mortal can see them flicker! (and I think tv is at 18Hz, but this I'm not sure...) > It is made worse by the 10Hz beating between the 50Hz display and > viewing the display in a room of florescent (?) lights that are running > of the 120V 60Hz power. Seriously, this IS the point, and we have the same problem here: just as your room is filled with 60Hz electromagnetic waves, my room is filled with 50Hz radiation (HiFi, TV, fridge, electric heater, lights), but the biggest source of "noise" is the amiga power supply! I was able to have a nearly stable NTSC display by just moving away my A500 power supply (but how do you do this with a 2000??) -- Colas Nahaboo, colas@sa.inria.fr, Bull Research, Koala Project, GWM X11 WM Phone:(33) 93.65.77.70(.66 Fax), INRIA, B.P.109 - 06561 Valbonne Cedex, FRANCE.
glmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matt Crowd) (02/07/91)
In article <18572@cbmvax.commodore.com> hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) writes: >In article <12912@hubcap.clemson.edu> ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu (Eat shit) writes: >>I have a question on the subject of the deinterlacer: >> >> I am using the A3000, and if I choose a PAL display, the screen >>will flash (bright/dim) very rapidly (no flicker, though). Is this the >>1950B monitor, or something internal? >> >>Doug >>ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu >> >What you are seeing is the 50Hz PAL refresh rate (pity the poor >Europeans who have to watch TV like this) which appears to flicker. >This is not a line interlace flicker in this case, but a frame flicker. >It is made worse by the 10Hz beating between the 50Hz display and >viewing the display in a room of florescent (?) lights that are running >of the 120V 60Hz power. > >Regards, >Scott Hood > I don't know what the 1950's problem is, but my TV set doesn't Flicker ! matt crowd.
sbeagle@kennels.actrix.gen.nz (Sleeping Beagle) (02/07/91)
ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu (Eat shit) writes: > I am using the A3000, and if I choose a PAL display, the screen > will flash (bright/dim) very rapidly (no flicker, though). Is this the > 1950B monitor, or something internal? At a guess what you are referring to is the problems that the multi-sync monitor goes through when it changes sync. This happens on my A3000 when changing from PAL to Productivity and on a Wyse 386 when changing from 800*600 to 640*480.... -- ** Official Signature for Sleeping Beagle (aka Thomas Farmer)! ** sbeagle@kennels.actrix.gen.nz || Disclaimers are for sick societies ** Thomas.Farmer@bbs.actrix.gen.nz || with too many lawyers.
johnhlee@viola.cs.cornell.edu (John H. Lee) (02/08/91)
In article <1991Feb7.014753.2749@marlin.jcu.edu.au> glmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matt Crowd) writes: > >I don't know what the 1950's problem is, but my TV set doesn't Flicker ! > >matt crowd. TV sets are likely to have higher-persistence phospher, reducing flicker in the first order. TV images (non-computer generated) inherently have less contrast, less detail and are usually moving, reducing flicker in the second order. Finally, people become accustomed to lower frame rates and notice the flicker less. My friend and I were raised on the 60Hz refresh rate, and when we visited Europe, we noticed the 50Hz flicker on TV's right off. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The DiskDoctor threatens the crew! Next time on AmigaDos: The Next Generation. John Lee Internet: johnhlee@cs.cornell.edu The above opinions of those of the user, and not of this machine.
BAXTER_A@wehi.dn.mu.oz (02/08/91)
Organization: Walter & Eliza Hall Institute Lines: 45 In article <18572@cbmvax.commodore.com>, hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) writes: > In article <12912@hubcap.clemson.edu> ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu (Eat shit) writes: >> >>I have a question on the subject of the deinterlacer: >> >> I am using the A3000, and if I choose a PAL display, the screen >>will flash (bright/dim) very rapidly (no flicker, though). Is this the >>1950B monitor, or something internal? >> >>Doug >>ddyer@hubcap.clemson.edu >> >>-- >>"I/O's revenge is at hand." - Hennessy & Patterson > > What you are seeing is the 50Hz PAL refresh rate (pity the poor > Europeans who have to watch TV like this) which appears to flicker. > This is not a line interlace flicker in this case, but a frame flicker. > It is made worse by the 10Hz beating between the 50Hz display and > viewing the display in a room of florescent (?) lights that are running > of the 120V 60Hz power. > > Regards, > Scott Hood Don't want to freak you guys out or anything, but 220-240V is usually run at 50 Hz, because 60 Hz is the ideal frequency for causing ventricular fibrillation, when someone gets electricuted, while 50 Hz is on the rapid down slope to not-so-bad-after-all. In other words, we occasionally get to see a slow beat moving its way down the screen from a great distance, which is not normally noticable. And we do get the other 1/4 of the screen to use! Regards Alan > > -- > -- > Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc. > {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com > "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!"
jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) (02/08/91)
m> <12912@hu <1991Feb6.135555@lemur.inria.fr> Sender: Reply-To: jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA Keywords: In article <1991Feb6.135555@lemur.inria.fr> colas@lemur.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) writes: >In article <18572@cbmvax.commodore.com>, hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) >writes: >> What you are seeing is the 50Hz PAL refresh rate (pity the poor >> Europeans who have to watch TV like this) which appears to flicker. > >Obviously, you didn't look at an european TV, which has a MUCH better quality >than NTSC (except when they brodcast american serials :-)). Moreover you are >forgotting the fact that movies are at 24Hz, and no mortal can see them flicker! >(and I think tv is at 18Hz, but this I'm not sure...) Movies are shot at 24 fps, but a) they're displayed in dark theatres, and b) they double-rate them (show each frame twice, for 48 fps effective). European TV flickers quite a bit, though it's far worse if you have 60Hz lights. Of course, that doesn't mean Never Twice the Same Color is any better... -- Randell Jesup, Keeper of AmigaDos, Commodore Engineering. {uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!jesup, jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com BIX: rjesup The compiler runs Like a swift-flowing river I wait in silence. (From "The Zen of Programming") ;-)
bernie@metapro.DIALix.oz.au (Bernd Felsche) (02/09/91)
In <1991Feb7.014753.2749@marlin.jcu.edu.au> glmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matt Crowd) writes: >I don't know what the 1950's problem is, but my TV set doesn't Flicker ! Does it have digital signal processing for anti-aliasing, and edge-detection? Must have cost a bundle! :-) (Of course, the "focus" might be out so that you light up more than one pixel at a time.) Take a _very close_ look when the weathermap is displayed. The isobars are usually narrow enough ( < 2 pixels ) to cause small amounts of flicker. This will of course only be noticeable on long horizontal sections of the lines. You may occasionally see the effect in low-cost video productions, when computer-generated graphics are displayed. Sharp edges in the colours, which have not be aliased, will flicker. Flicker will be evident when adjacent screen pixels in the two display fields are *significantly* different, and being updated at less than about 50Hz. (The exact frequency depends on individuals.) >matt crowd. -- _--_|\ Bernd Felsche #include <std/disclaimer.h> / \ Metapro Systems, 328 Albany Highway, Victoria Park, Western Australia \_.--._/ Fax: +61 9 472 3337 Phone: +61 9 362 9355 TZ=WST-8 v E-Mail: bernie@metapro.DIALix.oz.au | bernie@DIALix.oz.au
rwm@atronx.OCUnix.On.Ca (Russell McOrmond) (02/10/91)
In a message posted on 5 Feb 91 15:02:56 GMT,
hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) wrote:
SH>What you are seeing is the 50Hz PAL refresh rate (pity the poor
SH>Europeans who have to watch TV like this) which appears to flicker.
Strange - The first thing I did when I got my A3000 is change the jumper
into PAL mode. I run on a 1084 monitor, and it looks a lot better than
NTSC on this monitory (I'm in N.A., so it's an NTSC 1084).
I wish my A1000 had the same option.
SH>Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc.
SH> {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood hood@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com
SH> "The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!"
---
Opinions expressed in this message are my Own. I represent nobody else.
Russell McOrmond rwm@Atronx.OCUnix.On.Ca {tigris,alzabo,...}!atronx!rwm
FidoNet 1:163/109 Net Support: (613) 230-2282
Amiga-Fidonet Support 1:1/109 Gateway for .Amiga.OCUnix.On.Cacolas@lemur.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) (02/11/91)
In article <18695@cbmvax.commodore.com>, jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) writes: > Movies are shot at 24 fps, but a) they're displayed in dark theatres, > and b) they double-rate them (show each frame twice, for 48 fps effective). This I don't beleive. Perhaps you are referring to latest cinemascope techniques, but I'm pretty sure most movies made aren't double-framed *. (and even if they do, this is different from video, since there is a black screen between each image in movies that you don't get in video, where the image is not changed at once, but by the spot) (*) Could somebody in the know share some light on this subject? > European TV flickers quite a bit Not in europe where every source of electrcic noise is also 50Hz. It does if you run one in the US, though. -- Colas Nahaboo, colas@sa.inria.fr, Bull Research, Koala Project, GWM X11 WM Phone:(33) 93.65.77.70(.66 Fax), INRIA, B.P.109 - 06561 Valbonne Cedex, FRANCE.
glmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matt Crowd) (02/12/91)
In article <1991Feb9.044403.17012@metapro.DIALix.oz.au> bernie@metapro.DIALix.oz.au (Bernd Felsche) writes: >In <1991Feb7.014753.2749@marlin.jcu.edu.au> glmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matt Crowd) writes: > >>I don't know what the 1950's problem is, but my TV set doesn't Flicker ! > >Does it have digital signal processing for anti-aliasing, >and edge-detection? Must have cost a bundle! :-) (Of course, >the "focus" might be out so that you light up more than one >pixel at a time.) The TV was QUITE expensive, but i don't think that it has these features. > >You may occasionally see the effect in low-cost video productions, >when computer-generated graphics are displayed. Sharp edges in the >colours, which have not be aliased, will flicker. You're right! I watched the weater last night and WeatherMap was done with an Amiga, YES there was flicker on the horizontal bars. >>matt crowd. >-- > _--_|\ Bernd Felsche #include <std/disclaimer.h> matt.
eachus@aries.mitre.org (Robert I. Eachus) (02/20/91)
In article <1991Feb11.131117@lemur.inria.fr> colas@lemur.inria.fr (Colas Nahaboo) writes: In article <18695@cbmvax.commodore.com>, jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) writes: > Movies are shot at 24 fps, but a) they're displayed in dark theatres, > and b) they double-rate them (show each frame twice, for 48 fps effective). This I don't beleive. Perhaps you are referring to latest cinemascope techniques, but I'm pretty sure most movies made aren't double-framed *. (and even if they do, this is different from video, since there is a black screen between each image in movies that you don't get in video, where the image is not changed at once, but by the spot) (*) Could somebody in the know share some light on this subject? To "fool the eye" 35 mm (& 16mm) movies are filmed at 24 frames per second, but each frame is projected twice. If you have looked inside a movie projector, there is a film gate which holds the film steady for a while then jerks it downward to show the next frame. There is, of course, a rotating shutter (usually between the collimating lens and the film) which closes to keep you from seeing the film moved, but it actually closes TWICE per frame to give the impression that the actual frame rate is twice what it is. I think the old (does anyone still use it?) 8mm "home movie" format was 16 fps with each frame projected three times... When 24 fps movies are shown on U.S. 30 fps (f is now field :-) television, alternate frames are shown twice and three times. For most motion pictures this causes no problems, but it ruins some special effects, for example the hologram projected by R2D2 in Star Wars. :-( I don't know what they do in Europe when recording films for TV, but I suspect that they either just run them 4% fast (fine for the movie, yeetch for the sound, four per cent is enough for musicians to tell that the tuning is bright), or repeat one frame an extra time every half second (would tend to make smooth motion slightly jerky). I guess a good adaptation would use sound clipping to run the sound track on frequency, but take out odd bits... -- Robert I. Eachus Our troops will have the best possible support in the entire world. And they will not be asked to fight with one hand tied behind their back. President George Bush, January 16, 1991
rshaw@theborg.mlb.fl.us (Ron) (02/20/91)
Does the A2320 De-interlacer for the 2000 put out a strong enough signal to
completely drive a nec 3d? I installed the a2320 today & the nec 3d but it
seems as of the horizontal width control can not expand out the entired witdth
of the monitor (or maybe I will haveto re adujst the yoke. there is about a
1/4 " black jagged line running up the right side of the NEC?
ANyone with any expreience with the Nec 3d on the 2000? and do you know if
there is an internal witdth control? considring taking a HV probe to see thwa
the Anode voltage is ( been out of monitors so long mind in fuzzy)
Ron Shaw..... The only good 8 bit computer is a
Dead 8 bit compter....
-----------------------------Mathematics is a state of mind,
Electronics is a state of being.pselver@ssi3b1.zone1.com (Peter Selverstone) (02/25/91)
In article <rshaw.0741@theborg.mlb.fl.us> rshaw@theborg.mlb.fl.us (Ron) writes: >Does the A2320 De-interlacer for the 2000 put out a strong enough signal to >completely drive a nec 3d? I installed the a2320 today & the nec 3d but it >seems as of the horizontal width control can not expand out the entired witdth >of the monitor (or maybe I will haveto re adujst the yoke. there is about a >1/4 " black jagged line running up the right side of the NEC? There are really two things going on here. First, computer displays which operate at the TV scan rate of 15.75 KHz behave like televisions; the image bleeds off the edge of the screen. Almost all other monitors display a black border around the active display area and expect that the image will be blanked electrically at the margins. The reason for this is that It is virtually impossible to properly converge an overscanned high resolution display. In addition, pincusion distortion is usually unacceptable at large scan angles. One exception is the Commodore A1950 monitor which has a switch which expands the image horizontally. However, every A1950 I have seen shows both convergence and distortion problems when set for overscan. I doubt that the monitor was actually designed to operate with such a large horizontal scan angle. The second problem is that the A2320 depends upon the new ECS Denise for it's right margin blanking. With the current "old" Denise chip, the moving, serrated pattern you describe is visible on the right edge. Unfortunately, the ECS Denise chip has not been released for use in the 2000. The Microway flickerFixer displays the maximum number of horizontal pixels possible when using the existing Denise without moving or flickering artifacts in any location. It was designed to operate with real-world monitors. When the ECS Denise is released, Microway will probably offer a field upgrade (just a socketed chip swap) which will increase the number of visible horizontal pixels. However in my opinion, for most flickerFixer owners the minor enhancements of the ECS Denise will not justify the expense. -- Peter Selverstone ...{mit-eddie,pyramid,datacube}!mirror!ssi3b1!pselver Spy Pond Systems pselver@ssi3b1.zone1.com Arlington, MA BIX:pselverstone PLINK:pselverst CIS:72527,2652