ben@epmooch.UUCP (Rev. Ben A. Mesander) (04/27/91)
In article <greg.672722726@travis> greg@travis.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) writes: Mistaken attribution to: >In <8860@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) writes: > >>[ This should get that one guy who keeps griping about his pair ] >>[ of hard drives locking up to quiet down. -Dan ] > >Don't know who you're referring to (could be me) but I think this statement >is totally inappropriate. A lot of loyal Commodore customers have >waited a long time for this. Many, like myself, have been waiting for over >a year for Commodore to fix the problem. Watching our A2091s go out of >warranty while the fix was always something that we "shouldn't worry about, >it'll be along RSN. Trust us." I suggest you unwedge your head from between your cheeks: If you had bothered to read this thread befor flaming, the attribution is mistakenly made to Randall Jesup. You also seem to be a bit paranoid - "They could be talking about me!", or perhaps you have an inflated sense of self worth. >We've waited through official stonewalling and comp.sys.amiga blacklisting. >Commodore didn't even completely 'fess up to the problem till January >of this year. What a way to treat your customers - make them feel >crazy about a problem and when they ask you about it, tell them they're >full of shit. I'm sure that's thier exact words. "You're full of shit." Listen smarty- pants, when I worked in the SCSI drive industry, for Imprimis, on the Wren 5/6/7 product line, we sometimes would get customers complaining about a lockup with our drives. We tried our best to duplicate the problems they had, and to figure out how to fix the problem, even if it was the host's problem, and not the drives. SCSI is a hell of an interface, with lots of strange edge cases. Sometimes we *could* *not* duplicate a customer's problem, no matter how we tried. Commodore has figured out what the problem is now. Who pissed dioxin in your post toasties and made you fly off like this over a mis-attribution? >We've had to put up with a lot of insecurity about who would pay for the >fix and if Commodore would ever come up with a fix. Sometimes it takes *months* of testing to ascertain what set of conditions on a SCSI bus causes a particular problem with what combination of equipment. It is neither trivial nor fast and easy to fix these things. >From the customer's point of view, it's not such a trivial matter to >desire multiple-drive support on the A2091, as was advertised. What's >next, customers "griping" their machines won't boot out of the >box? Apparrently due to a bug in the LSI, it's not such a trivial matter to implement multiple drive support on the A2091 *either*. It's a lot more trivial to "desire" something than to implement something. >Shame on Commodore for the unnecessary disclaimer listed above. This was >a serious problem with Commodore hardware and NOT the fault of the individual >purchasers - or would Commodore rather we just refer to them as >the whiners? You're a pot calling the kettle black. >Gregory R. Travis Indiana University, Bloomington IN 47405 -- | ben@epmooch.UUCP (Ben Mesander) | "Cash is more important than | | ben%servalan.UUCP@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu | your mother." - Al Shugart, | | !chinet!uokmax!servalan!epmooch!ben | CEO, Seagate Technologies |
greg@travis.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) (04/27/91)
In <8860@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) writes: >[ This should get that one guy who keeps griping about his pair ] >[ of hard drives locking up to quiet down. -Dan ] Don't know who you're referring to (could be me) but I think this statement is totally inappropriate. A lot of loyal Commodore customers have waited a long time for this. Many, like myself, have been waiting for over a year for Commodore to fix the problem. Watching our A2091s go out of warranty while the fix was always something that we "shouldn't worry about, it'll be along RSN. Trust us." We've waited through official stonewalling and comp.sys.amiga blacklisting. Commodore didn't even completely 'fess up to the problem till January of this year. What a way to treat your customers - make them feel crazy about a problem and when they ask you about it, tell them they're full of shit. We've had to put up with a lot of insecurity about who would pay for the fix and if Commodore would ever come up with a fix. From the customer's point of view, it's not such a trivial matter to desire multiple-drive support on the A2091, as was advertised. What's next, customers "griping" their machines won't boot out of the box? Shame on Commodore for the unnecessary disclaimer listed above. This was a serious problem with Commodore hardware and NOT the fault of the individual purchasers - or would Commodore rather we just refer to them as the whiners? -- Gregory R. Travis Indiana University, Bloomington IN 47405 greg@cica.indiana.edu Center for Innovative Computer Applicationls "gave' fornu, fornu fake fail" (Or something like that) - Cocteau twins
blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com (Blaine Gardner) (04/27/91)
greg@travis.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) writes: >In <8860@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) writes: >>[ This should get that one guy who keeps griping about his pair ] >>[ of hard drives locking up to quiet down. -Dan ] >Don't know who you're referring to (could be me) but I think this statement >is totally inappropriate. A lot of loyal Commodore customers have >Shame on Commodore for the unnecessary disclaimer listed above. This was If you'll re-read the posting, that is Dan's comment, not Randell's or any other CBM employee. As to it's accuracy or appropriateness..... -- Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland 580 Arapeen Drive, SLC, Utah 84108 blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com BIX: blaine_g DoD #46 My other motorcycle is a Quadracer. FJ1200
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (04/28/91)
I generally don't followup or post often, but this last message from Greg Travis really ticked me off... I have been a Commodore A2091 (rev 4.0 modified) owner for over a year, and when hooking up two drives I discovered lockups..A call to a very trusted dealer in the Detroit area(Michigan Software) confirmed I was not doing anything wrong, Commodore had a service bulletin out in April '90 about the Western Digital 'A' chip having a problem with multiple hard drives being accessed at the same time..This was July '90 I found this out..(September I bought a GVP Series II, and it didn't work properly with 2 drives either, it would send the heads out of range on my ST-296NPR! CRUNCH! OUCH! R/W ERROR! Try running a BBS and UUCP this this problem!) Saying that they ignore the problem, means that you never really contacted a good service center that would go through their service bulletins and look for any reference to the problem....IF they really ignored the problem, there would NEVER be a fix, would there? It was WELL known by Commodore, they are the ones that made the service bulletin saying 'We swapped the WD chip and are currently testing...' and 'A service bulletin will be released in the future with a solution for this problem.' Why should someone have to come on this net and tell you that you got a problem? You knew about the problem, and if you would have contacted a service center they would have found an answer for you...Maybe any answer given on the net were suggestions to get you by until corrective measures were avaiable. Like now I have a A2232 board that doesn't send hardware breaks, contacted another computer store and they called Commodore, and then Commodore confirmed it was a problem with the board and that service bulletins will be released when a fix is found. You see be bellyaching about it? I can't UUCP off my 2232 board because I can't send breaks, and its delayed my purchase of a Telebit T2500, but I will be patient and give them time to make sure the problems are corrected... What I am saying, no one is perfect, and if you give them a chance to work, they will take care of you...Remember, Commodore WANTS your business, and allmost all their sales are from word of mouth. Ron -- Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!)
jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) (04/28/91)
In article <greg.672722726@travis> greg@travis.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) writes: >In <8860@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> jesup@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (Randell Jesup) writes: > >>[ This should get that one guy who keeps griping about his pair ] >>[ of hard drives locking up to quiet down. -Dan ] I don't think it's appropriate for me to respond to most of this message, other than to say that there is a difference between Commodore and service centers/dealers, and that the problem and (I think) status of warranty issues have been disseminated for far longer than was mentioned. Don't blame Commodore because we don't make public statements on the net - our lawyers don't let us except in unusual cases (and only with 10 dozen signatures). If someone has a problem that is not being resolved by their local dealer and/or service center, I would strongly advise that they write a letter (snail-mail) to the department of Customer Satisfaction here at Commodore - helping out people is what they get paid to do, and I've seen them go to considerable lengths on occasion to do so. If you do write a letter, remember that politeness, facts, and a straightforward, reasonable approach always works better than flaming, contrary to what most people on the net seem to think from their actions. 1/2 :-) >Shame on Commodore for the unnecessary disclaimer listed above. This was >a serious problem with Commodore hardware and NOT the fault of the individual >purchasers - or would Commodore rather we just refer to them as >the whiners? NOTE: I did _not_ write that, it was added by the c.s.a.announce moderator. #include <std/disclaimer> -- Randell Jesup, Keeper of AmigaDos, Commodore Engineering. {uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!jesup, jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com BIX: rjesup Disclaimer: Nothing I say is anything other than my personal opinion. Thus spake the Master Ninjei: "To program a million-line operating system is easy, to change a man's temperament is more difficult." (From "The Zen of Programming") ;-)
greg@ogre.cica.indiana.edu (Gregory TRAVIS) (04/30/91)
Apologies are in order to Randell - since I read the announcement in comp.sys.amiga.hardware, I assumed "Dan" was a colleague of Randell's. It appeared the submission was included explicitly by Randell. I don't read comp.sys.amiga.announce. Ben Mesander writes: > Apparrently due to a bug in the LSI, it's not such a trivial matter to > implement multiple drive support on the A2091 *either*. It's a lot more > trivial to "desire" something than to implement something. That's not germane to the long standing problem of multiple-drives on the A2091. The unit was adertised in such a way as to make one believe that it was capable of handling multiple SCSI drives, which pre-6.6ROMS is was not. The complexity of a particular implementation is not a direct customer responsibility, so don't blame me for how "hard" it is to do. The contract implicitly specifies that for a given amount of capital Commodore will supply a SCSI-compliant disk controller with multiple drive support. Else we have recourse to the warranty. This is not an unreasonable request and it's one sucessfully accomplished by countless vendors before Commodore's attempt. My warranty expired two months ago, long before this announcement. Randell writes: > If someone has a problem that is not being resolved by their local >dealer and/or service center, I would strongly advise that they write >a letter (snail-mail) to the department of Customer Satisfaction here at >Commodore - helping out people is what they get paid to do, and I've seen >them go to considerable lengths on occasion to do so. If you do write a >letter, remember that politeness, facts, and a straightforward, reasonable >approach always works better than flaming, contrary to what most people on >the net seem to think from their actions. 1/2 :-) Good advice, but it didn't work in my case. I visited dealers/service centers from the Midwest and New York. As of two months ago none of them knew anything, except some did know there was a problem with the A2091. I also called and wrote Commodore without success. How hard to you expect the average Amiga owner to work to try and find the solution to the problem? Ronald Kushner writes: > Why should someone have to come on this net and tell you that you got a >problem? You knew about the problem, and if you would have contacted a service >center they would have found an answer for you...Maybe any answer given on the >net were suggestions to get you by until corrective measures were avaiable. I contacted several service centers, none of which knew of the problem. You're very lucky to have such an uber-dealer because, believe me, they're rare. I knew about the problem, but it was denied by a lot of people for a long time. It's easy to say what one should've done, given an ideal case and a benevolent service organization. And perfect communication between all levels of the company. And then to detail how the problem will be perfectly resolved. But it didn't happen this time. -- Gregory R. Travis Indiana University, Bloomington IN 47405 greg@cica.indiana.edu Center for Innovative Computer Applicationls "gave' fornu, fornu fake fail" (Or something like that) - Cocteau twins
rbabel@babylon.rmt.sub.org (Ralph Babel) (05/02/91)
In article <rkushner.9398@sycom.UUCP>, rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: > September I bought a GVP Series II, and it didn't work > properly with 2 drives either, it would send the heads out > of range on my ST-296NPR! CRUNCH! OUCH! R/W ERROR! This is utter nonsense! The driver will only access blocks that have been requested by the filesystem. There is NO WAY a SCSI host adapter's driver could step a drive's heads outside the valid range - SCSI isn't ST-506 or trackdisk.device! Something like this could only be done by the SCSI drive controller's firmware. And even _if_ an invalid block would be requested, then the drive is supposed to reject this request with an error. Ralph
ben@epmooch.UUCP (Rev. Ben A. Mesander) (05/03/91)
>In article <07643.AA07643@babylon.rmt.sub.org> rbabel@babylon.rmt.sub.org (Ralph Babel) writes: >In article <rkushner.9398@sycom.UUCP>, rkushner@sycom.UUCP >(Ronald Kushner) writes: > >> September I bought a GVP Series II, and it didn't work >> properly with 2 drives either, it would send the heads out >> of range on my ST-296NPR! CRUNCH! OUCH! R/W ERROR! > >This is utter nonsense! > >The driver will only access blocks that have been requested >by the filesystem. There is NO WAY a SCSI host adapter's >driver could step a drive's heads outside the valid range - >SCSI isn't ST-506 or trackdisk.device! Something like this >could only be done by the SCSI drive controller's firmware. >And even _if_ an invalid block would be requested, then the >drive is supposed to reject this request with an error. You are correct. When I initially partitioned my ST-296n, the Microbotics mountlist initially had one too many cylinders. The drive does not "send the heads out of range." The drive returns an "Illegal Request" SCSI sense code when access to those blocks was detected. Note: I used to develop SCSI firmware for CDC/Imprimis/Seagate. I *know* this to be the case. SCSI does *not* access the drive on a cylinder, head, sector basis, and can *not* cause the drive to slam its heads. Now you may have a defective drive, that's another matter. >Ralph -- | ben@epmooch.UUCP (Ben Mesander) | "Cash is more important than | | ben%servalan.UUCP@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu | your mother." - Al Shugart, | | !chinet!uokmax!servalan!epmooch!ben | CEO, Seagate Technologies |
gfradl@instem.UUCP (George Fradl) (05/05/91)
>In an article Ben Mesander wrote: >You are correct. When I initially partitioned my ST-296n, the Microbotics >mountlist initially had one too many cylinders. The drive does not "send >the heads out of range." The drive returns an "Illegal Request" SCSI >sense code when access to those blocks was detected. >Note: I used to develop SCSI firmware for CDC/Imprimis/Seagate. I *know* >this to be the case. SCSI does *not* access the drive on a cylinder, head, >sector basis, and can *not* cause the drive to slam its heads. Now you >may have a defective drive, that's another matter. Well I'm sure if you worked with the SCSI devices you know what you are talking about. But I have a GVP Series II controller also with 2 drives on it, one is an ST-296. Seems my 296 does the same CLUNKing sound Ron Krushner whote about with his. Chances are its just the Seagate drives, from what I have been hearing they are not quite "top of the line". George G Fradl gfradl@instem.uucp